Enough Full Frame Talk: Where are the 7D II Rumors?

[Black berry]

Drop the MP's to about 16, Dramatically improve the noise, IQ and DR and upgrade the AF.
To me it's a no brainer!
BB.

 

[liberace]

Sadly, you aren't going to get a revolution in high ISO noise performance in a crop sensor for a very long time... if ever. With current sensor technology there is a limit to how well a crop sensor can handle noise... and with consumers for this category demanding features in video, hdr, etc... there is even less hope for sensor improvement.

But keep dreaming... it never hurts to dream.

There has already been a revolution in crop sensor high ISO noise. It's called the D800. The pixel pitch of it's sensor is VERY close to that of the 7D.

4.88µm v 4.3µm - that's only 13.5% difference. For comparison the 5D Mark III has a pixel pitch of 6.5µm - 50% bigger.

You can't tell me that the D800 doesn't have low high ISO noise. It's very competitive with the 5DIII.

However, the D800 does not do 8 or 10FPS. A crop camera is the best/only way of optimizing the following combination of attributes (1) lower price, (2) higher frame rate and (3) smaller pixels (i.e., lots of "pixels per feather"). I currently own a 5D3 and 7D both of which were purchased in the last 6 months. (They replaced a 5D and 40D.) The 7D is used almost exclusively outdoors in comparatively good light with longer lenses to photograph things that move rapidly and unexpectedly. The 5D3 is used for everything else.

I agree 100%. I also own a 5D3 and a 7D. I was just pointing out that it is possible to get more out of an APS-C sensor than the 7D gives, at least Sony and Nikon have figured it out. Here's hoping Canon will soon too.

 

[canon816]

Sadly, you aren't going to get a revolution in high ISO noise performance in a crop sensor for a very long time... if ever. With current sensor technology there is a limit to how well a crop sensor can handle noise... and with consumers for this category demanding features in video, hdr, etc... there is even less hope for sensor improvement.

But keep dreaming... it never hurts to dream.

There has already been a revolution in crop sensor high ISO noise. It's called the D800. The pixel pitch of it's sensor is VERY close to that of the 7D.

4.88µm v 4.3µm - that's only 13.5% difference. For comparison the 5D Mark III has a pixel pitch of 6.5µm - 50% bigger.

You can't tell me that the D800 doesn't have low high ISO noise. It's very competitive with the 5DIII.

Sure I can. D800 is on par up through ISO 1600 but at that point it really starts to lag the 5DIII. Compare ISO 3200 and 6400 between these 2 cameras and you will notice that the d800 is far noisier. Not only is it noisier it is more difficult noise to clean up.

The D800 noise has colorful red pixels and image resolution degrades dramatically as this noise moves in.

The 5DIII has primarily white noise and retains resolution and detail as noise moves in. This type of noise is very easy to clean up at a very small loss to IQ.

While you will see incremental noise improvement in crop sensors there has certainly not been a revolution. Also, if you were reading through this thread you may have noticed that some folks were asking for ISO 6400 to look like ISO 400 on a t3i. This just isn't going to happen with current sensor tech.

I'm not brand loyal here... the d800 is a big disappointment in regards to high iso noise, especially considering it is full frame. There are too many pixels crammed onto that sensor.

 

[canon816]

Sadly, you aren't going to get a revolution in high ISO noise performance in a crop sensor for a very long time... if ever.

No, you'll just continue to get incremental improvements same as FF sensors. The "crop can't do high ISO" meme is old. Today's best crop bodies match yesterday's FF bodies. Tomorrow's crop sensors will match today's FF sensors. Given the same level of technology FF sensors will always collect more light, but that doesn't mean crop won't continue to improve.

I agree, they will continue to improve... but the key word here is incrementally. I'm just pointing out that the "dreamers" here are looking for a revolution.... and aren't going to get one. Not until the additional features that I mentioned play out and the average person starts to care more about IQ relative to ISO. Remember, the bulk of canon's business is with average customers.... and this type of customer doesnt care as much about high iso capabilities as the prosumer and pro level. At least not yet anyway...

 

[Bob Howland]

Sadly, you aren't going to get a revolution in high ISO noise performance in a crop sensor for a very long time... if ever. With current sensor technology there is a limit to how well a crop sensor can handle noise... and with consumers for this category demanding features in video, hdr, etc... there is even less hope for sensor improvement.

But keep dreaming... it never hurts to dream.

There has already been a revolution in crop sensor high ISO noise. It's called the D800. The pixel pitch of it's sensor is VERY close to that of the 7D.

4.88µm v 4.3µm - that's only 13.5% difference. For comparison the 5D Mark III has a pixel pitch of 6.5µm - 50% bigger.

You can't tell me that the D800 doesn't have low high ISO noise. It's very competitive with the 5DIII.

However, the D800 does not do 8 or 10FPS. A crop camera is the best/only way of optimizing the following combination of attributes (1) lower price, (2) higher frame rate and (3) smaller pixels (i.e., lots of "pixels per feather"). I currently own a 5D3 and 7D both of which were purchased in the last 6 months. (They replaced a 5D and 40D.) The 7D is used almost exclusively outdoors in comparatively good light with longer lenses to photograph things that move rapidly and unexpectedly. The 5D3 is used for everything else.

I agree 100%. I also own a 5D3 and a 7D. I was just pointing out that it is possible to get more out of an APS-C sensor than the 7D gives, at least Sony and Nikon have figured it out. Here's hoping Canon will soon too.

I guess I was arguing with a strawman. I have this uneasy feeling that, instead of selling us a better 7D for $2000-2500, they are going to try to sell a 47MP, 8FPS, $10,000 FF monstrosity based on a 1Dx.

 

[x-vision]

Drop the MP's to about 16, Dramatically improve the noise, IQ and DR and upgrade the AF.
To me it's a no brainer!
BB.

+1,000,000

Unfortunately, Canon will likely keep the same sensor and AF - and will instead 'improve' the 7D with wireless, GPS, and built-in speakers. :'(

... if the 7D gets an upgrade in the first place.
Looking at the 6D, Canon might be planning to have all their cameras reduced to Rebels - except for the 5DIII and 1DX.
You have to admit that this is a possibility.

 

[Ricku]

Canon's biggest concern right now is making a high MP / high DR full frame body - something to compete with Nikon's D800.

The 7D2 will probably have to wait.

 

[AprilForever]

The 7D mk II will sadly not likely come until January... .....

 

[dr croubie]

The 7D mk II will sadly not likely come until January 2014... .....

edited to be more realistic

 

[tron]

Much better performance in high ISO say up to 6400 (improvements in RAW files not JPG only). 10fps. Even better Autofocus. Silent shooting would be nice too.

I believe these improvements would be enough to make it a killer APS-C camera. In fact I would get this instead of a bigger telephoto! And of course we can all dream

P.S Price around 1.8K tops

 

[pierceography]

Personally, at the top of my wish list is the ability to control the camera with a phone (i.e. iOS or Android app). I don't care about the built in hardware, but if Canon were to introduce a dongle that, at the very least, would allow phones to communicate either wirelessly or through a cable. I know you can do this with a laptop, but I rarely carry mine when shooting (who wants to drag around an extra 7lbs?)... especially when an iPad/iPhone has most everything I need in the short term.

But I'm fairly happy with my 5D mark iii and the expanded AEB, which was a huge reason for wanting tethered shooting -- camera shake during HDR exposures and all.

As a slight aside, the only real feature I'm slightly jealous of the 6D having is wifi, since I see this as a possible route to truly controlling the camera wirelessly. Nikon definitely got that one right... :-\

The remote control with your phone is already available. See "DSLR Controller" on the Google Play Store. You have to use a USB cable, but it really works. Works for all new Canon cameras and some older ones.

I see that al2 beat me to mentioning "DSLR Controller". I agree that it really works with my 7D and can even control my 40D within the 40D's Liveview limitations.

http://dslrcontroller.com/

How about an iOS (iPhone) app? Far as I know, these don't exist... which is a real shame, since I really don't care for Android.

 

[tron]

The 7D mk II will sadly not likely come until January 2014... .....

edited to be more realistic

;D ;D ;D

 

[brianleighty]

Much better performance in high ISO say up to 6400 (improvements in RAW files not JPG only). 10fps. Even better Autofocus. Silent shooting would be nice too.

I believe these improvements would be enough to make it a killer APS-C camera. In fact I would get this instead of a bigger telephoto! And of course we can all dream

P.S Price around 1.8K tops

Uh the original was $1699.00 when released. You actually expect them to only add $100 to the price? This is how we get people going thermonuclear when the product ends up being ridiculously expensive in people's minds. Have realistic expectations and then it's not as big a shock when the price comes out. I could see them pricing this the same as the 6D at $2100. Then you have the choice of better AF and body construction or a Full frame with Higher ISO sensitivity. BTW my 5D mark ii is only marginal at 6400 so I wouldn't expect 6400 to be super useful on a crop body. I think if they're smart they might work on something that they have more control over say DR and an increase in MP possibly.

 

[Albi86]

With that price it'd better be a revolution though.

Just a new sensor and 5d3's AF would make for an incremental upgrade, making that price look ridiculous. Unless the sensor is so good to make Sony execute all their engineers.

Tech advancements are about having more for the same price, not just getting on par with today's standards for +25% price increase. This is what make people thermonuclear.

The 70D/7D2 vs D7100/D400 battle will be another interesting milestone.

 

[Gothmoth]

Have realistic expectations and then it's not as big a shock when the price comes out.

so same sensor same AF, wifi and GPS and a price around 2000$.... 8)

 

[tron]

Much better performance in high ISO say up to 6400 (improvements in RAW files not JPG only). 10fps. Even better Autofocus. Silent shooting would be nice too.

I believe these improvements would be enough to make it a killer APS-C camera. In fact I would get this instead of a bigger telephoto! And of course we can all dream

P.S Price around 1.8K tops

Uh the original was $1699.00 when released. You actually expect them to only add $100 to the price? This is how we get people going thermonuclear when the product ends up being ridiculously expensive in people's minds. Have realistic expectations and then it's not as big a shock when the price comes out. I could see them pricing this the same as the 6D at $2100. Then you have the choice of better AF and body construction or a Full frame with Higher ISO sensitivity. BTW my 5D mark ii is only marginal at 6400 so I wouldn't expect 6400 to be super useful on a crop body. I think if they're smart they might work on something that they have more control over say DR and an increase in MP possibly.

I didn't say perfect at 6400. I said better. And it's only electronics. Cost shouldn't rise much unless they simply want to profit much more. The body does not need serious improvements.

 

[DB]

2 things:

(1) PRICE - everyone is once again underestimating what Canon may or may not charge for a 7D2 (if they ever get around to building one). The Canon Marketing executive interviewed by Gordan Laing of CameraLabs @ Photokina, desperately went out of his way to say that although the 6D fits in the numerical range between the 7D and 5D it is NOT a linear product positioning....what does he mean by this? He means the $2099 6D got the '6' designation because it is FF, but he qualified his remarks by stating that it was in essence a FF 60D (for amateurs). This my friends leaves the door wide open for Canon to introduce a 7D mark II for Semi-Professionals (Pro's & serious enthusiasts) and price it significantly above the new 6D. The strict linear interpretation would dictate that in terms of price: 1D > 5D > 7D , however, what Canon employee said indirectly was 6D > 7D does not necessarily have to hold true. Why else would he go to such lengths to stress that 6D is not the same as other xD designations.

(2) FEATURES - everyone wants more DR, better ISO & low-light performance, dual memory cards etc. and are willing to sacrifice MP, accessory features like GPS + WiFi, because most of you already own a Canon DSLR which does not have this whizzy new features (so you won't miss what you've never had) and you wish that your current camera body had better IQ. Canon on the other hand, want to sell new cameras, not just to you guys (existing customers) but to new customers as well, so <18MP is a non-runner as is not having WiFi etc.


Wanting more (IQ) for less (money) does not compute for Canon -> they'll happily sell you a 1DX

 

[Rockets95]

So, trying to be realistic here: what features do you expect/hope to see in the 7D?

My list is short: Less noise at ISO 1600-6400; an even better autofocus; a little more weatherproofing; CF Card slot (don't care if they also include an SD, but I wants my CF); and that ability to control the camera through your smartphone using WiFi.
What makes your short list?

Everything on your list plus more Dynamic Range, and I'd be good!

So few upgrades on the current 7D?
I'm afraid the guys at dpreview will write again "this is not a WOW! camera".

Now that I've seen the "bells and whistles" on the 6D, throw in built-in GPS, WiFi, and Smartphone Remote.

 

[M.ST]

I want so see a cf card slot or a CF/SD card slot in it.