EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

pwp said:
dak723 said:
While I have disagreed with K on numerous occasions, I just don't get the ridicule, and in many cases, just totally stupid responses to the dual card slot issue. I have never had a card fail, but if I did, you can be sure that I would have a camera with dual card slots. You don't have to be a pro to take shots that you would be very upset if they were lost - whether they be pictures taken on vacation, or a special moment that can not and will not happen again.

+1

There was a time when I was arrogant about the premium quality cards I used and scoffed at the paranoia of writing to two cards. Until...

A couple of years ago I had a top level Lexar card fail in spite of following all best practice procedures. I was lucky not to lose a client over this card-fail. Lesson learned, it's such a simple matter to write to two cards. It freaks me out now to just write to one card. Just like the dreaded HDD fail in a computer, it's not a matter of if it will happen, but when.

Dual card slots is the easiest insurance you'll ever get against that admittedly very rare card-fail event. Any argument against it is just plain foolish.

-pw

If the comments were being made in a vacuum with no history or context, I would agree with you. Unfortunately, "K" has compiled quite a record of argumentative, irrational and illogical trolling just in the past few days that tends to put people off. This was the same problem our dear departed Dilbert had.

Dilbert would occasionally make a valid point, but it was such a rare occurrence that even when he did, there was just too much negativity to overcome. I think that is the problem here. "K" has made so many outrageous and insulting statements, that it triggers a rather visceral reaction just to see his name on a post.

For the most part, though, I don't think people are ridiculing the validity of having dual card slots, so much as they are pointing out that the lack of same does not make a camera a piece of junk, which seems to be the argument Mr. K is advancing.

I have dual card slots, but I set them up to record sequentially, so they don't really serve as a backup for me. I may regret that decision some day, although I do a lot of chimping.
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

dak723 said:
...I just don't get the ridicule, and in many cases, just totally stupid responses to the dual card slot issue.

Do you agree with 'K' then, that the 6D is a crippled, low value, crap camera because it only has one card slot and 11 AF points?
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

unfocused said:
I have dual card slots, but I set them up to record sequentially, so they don't really serve as a backup for me. I may regret that decision some day, although I do a lot of chimping.
Card failure tends not to be revealed until you're back at the studio and drop the card into the reader to download. Regular chimping will not generally reveal the hell that may come later. The fortunate reality these days is that card fails are incredibly rare. But if recording simultaneously to two cards saves my backside once in a decade, that's reason enough to use this (almost) free insurance option. On important jobs, it also removes a subtle layer of potential anxiety, freeing up extra attention for the creative process.

The elements that make up the concept of giving yourself every chance of success are many and often subtle. In plain language, this is what is called experience. Years ago I missed a tender for a very big job when I really thought I had it in the bag. The client said they loved my work, but the job went to a photographer 15 years older than me. When pressed, the client said that they tend not to book photographers under 45-50 for one simple reason. The older guys don't f... up.

Sure, this was an isolated case, but taken in a broader context, it was usefully instructive.

-pw
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

My thoughts exactly. He started out with a point that he felt that he was not getting his money's worth out of Canon cameras, especially the 6D series. Fair enough. He had an opinion. We all have opinions. He felt that Nikon had a much better feature set for the money. Fair enough. He wanted Canon to offer the same or more features for his money. So far so good. But, something set him off and he started name calling and throwing stones and when he got hit by returning stones, he couldn't take it so his arguments became more and more ridiculous and he started throwing more stones. When others had a different opinion from him he threw a temper tantrum. If he keeps throwing stones at everyone that disagrees with him, there are plenty of people on this forum who can throw them back.
The bottom line is that trolling Canon on this forum and bad mouthing everyone that disagrees with you doesn't amount to anything. Canon will release what it will and you will either buy it or not. Why make enemies when you can do nothing about the outcome.
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

hbr said:
My thoughts exactly. He started out with a point that he felt that he was not getting his money's worth out of Canon cameras, especially the 6D series. Fair enough. He had an opinion. We all have opinions. He felt that Nikon had a much better feature set for the money. Fair enough. He wanted Canon to offer the same or more features for his money. So far so good. But, something set him off and he started name calling and throwing stones and when he got hit by returning stones, he couldn't take it so his arguments became more and more ridiculous and he started throwing more stones. When others had a different opinion from him he threw a temper tantrum. If he keeps throwing stones at everyone that disagrees with him, there are plenty of people on this forum who can throw them back.
The bottom line is that trolling Canon on this forum and bad mouthing everyone that disagrees with you doesn't amount to anything. Canon will release what it will and you will either buy it or not. Why make enemies when you can do nothing about the outcome.

And again, if Canon doesn't offer products he wants and Nikon does, why does he hang out here and complain instead of switching to Nikon? He's been asked that a number of times and never answered. Canon is under no obligation to make everyone's ideal camera at their ideal price points.
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

neuroanatomist said:
dak723 said:
...I just don't get the ridicule, and in many cases, just totally stupid responses to the dual card slot issue.

Do you agree with 'K' then, that the 6D is a crippled, low value, crap camera because it only has one card slot and 11 AF points?

No not at all. In fact I have written long involved responses to K explaining exactly why I bought a 6D and why I consider it to be the better choice in that price range (I prefer the Canon color, tonal curves, ergonomics, reliability.) But just because I don't agree with 90% of what someone says, that doesn't mean I have to disagree with 100%. If a person has experienced card failure in the past and lost pics that can never be replaced, then I have no argument against their desire for dual card slots.
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

dak723 said:
If a person has experienced card failure in the past and lost pics that can never be replaced, then I have no argument against their desire for dual card slots.

Who here was arguing against dual card slots?
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

I'm very much interested in how this thinking of the need for dual card slots came about. At what point in the history of photography did people start to fear the loss of their pictures so much that it drove the demand to include a second card slot?

If we are to assume that the average person snaps their precious photos on a smartphone or point and shoot then surely those devises should be the ones to first include a back up system, yet they don't. (Well not by default)

If anything dual slots should be included in the lowest end of the camera spectrum as those consumers are more likely to have cheaper and less reliable SD cards.

The more advanced the camera the more aware the photographer becomes of the need for good practices in back up and storage, getting decent SD cards etc thus reducing the risk of failure.

At the highest end the second card slot simply speeds up this workflow for the professional as well as giving them more options for continuous shooting and handling files. Back up is just one advantage to them but not the primary reason for the dual slots existence in these cameras.

To be sure dual slots would be very useful in the 6D II but not because of the fear that an SD card is going to fail at any moment but to give the photographer more flexibility and shooting options. Just like Wifi or NFC. It's a useful feature but not a necessity.
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

Zv said:
I'm very much interested in how this thinking of the need for dual card slots came about. At what point in the history of photography did people start to fear the loss of their pictures so much that it drove the demand to include a second card slot?

If we are to assume that the average person snaps their precious photos on a smartphone or point and shoot then surely those devises should be the ones to first include a back up system, yet they don't. (Well not by default)

If anything dual slots should be included in the lowest end of the camera spectrum as those consumers are more likely to have cheaper and less reliable SD cards.

The more advanced the camera the more aware the photographer becomes of the need for good practices in back up and storage, getting decent SD cards etc thus reducing the risk of failure.

At the highest end the second card slot simply speeds up this workflow for the professional as well as giving them more options for continuous shooting and handling files. Back up is just one advantage to them but not the primary reason for the dual slots existence in these cameras.

To be sure dual slots would be very useful in the 6D II but not because of the fear that an SD card is going to fail at any moment but to give the photographer more flexibility and shooting options. Just like Wifi or NFC. It's a useful feature but not a necessity.

I have had card failure, but it was the CF card and the SD card saved my bacon....
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

Zv said:
I'm very much interested in how this thinking of the need for dual card slots came about. At what point in the history of photography did people start to fear the loss of their pictures so much that it drove the demand to include a second card slot?

While you didn't bring it up, in this forum this is the classic anti-dual slot Canon apologist argument is "since the beginning of digital, everyone had 1 slot, we were OK"

This is beyond irrelevant and fallacious.

First of all, it is anti-progress. It denies and resists progress.

Secondly, to compare it in a way that will help illustrate how silly this line of arguments are --

Cars did not have seatbelts at one time...

Homes did not have smoke detectors / fire alarms...

Microsoft Word didn't have auto-save...

Yes, the world still went on, but data was more easily lost. In the early days of digital, photographers ran with more risk during their shoots. Yes, while card failures are indeed rare -- there have been and still are events that are ruined because of this. There are couples to this day who have their wedding shoots ruined because of card failures.

In this day an age, that is not just bad luck or an unfortunate accident. This is the negligence of the photographer not securing the data because today, there are options. Back then, there weren't any options other than running two cameras. Which many did regardless since they would rather have 2 cameras than swapping lenses. Either way, only one camera is going to capture the first kiss.

Some say film was was worse. I disagree. While statistically more film was ruined due to user error than cards have ever failed -- the key is 'user error'

I never ruined a roll of film forgetting to rewind on my old Minolta. Discipline. I have control over it. There's ZERO control over whether a memory card fails. You can be completely perfect, and on its own, for reasons unknown it just dies on you.

One would expect, for a $2,000 body dual cards would be a given.


If we are to assume that the average person snaps their precious photos on a smartphone or point and shoot then surely those devises should be the ones to first include a back up system, yet they don't. (Well not by default)

Most people's phones backup photos to the cloud as they are taken. Whether Apple or Android. This wasn't the case at the beginning of smartphones, but it is something valued and exists today. It was even marketed as an important aspect of using their cloud services. Backup and save your photos. All your precious moments safe from loss.


If anything dual slots should be included in the lowest end of the camera spectrum as those consumers are more likely to have cheaper and less reliable SD cards.

This is a fallacy. While higher end cards may have a better reliability record then some generic garbage cards, they too have corruption. I had a Sandisk Pro CF card die. This was the highest quality, highest end card on the market at the time. It was pretty new too - maybe 2-3 shoots on it at most. Fortunately, the SD card in my 5D3 saved the stills. Unfortunately, I lost the video I took because 5D3 saves that to only 1 card. I had some SD cards choke too.

When I read all these "I never had a card fail" posts that so many people here, and on other forums make ...

I think, well, maybe you haven't been in a car wreck to appreciate a seatbelt and an airbag either.

After that, I think - here's a person that hasn't done much photography. If you do enough work, and enough shooting - over the course of years it is almost certain it will happen. If it doesn't you are either exceptionally lucky despite the fact that card failures are rare, or you are very low volume.

Everyone I know who has big shutter counts and has shot for years has had a card go bad on them.

Finally, most people are not computer and tech geeks. They likely don't follow technology other than new product releases. In other words, they don't read about how technology works. Memory cards have a limited read/write life. And regardless of the claims of manufactures citing X amount of read/write cycles before failure, this can and does happen a lot sooner. Not to mention, the more and more reads and writes, the more they slow down too. They degrade.

The older a card by use, the more likely it is to fail. Although, new cards go bad for no apparent reason too.


Back up is just one advantage to them but not the primary reason for the dual slots existence in these cameras.


Not according to those I've talked to and worked with. It's all about instant data redundancy. It takes a few seconds to swap out a card, so it isn't about speeding up workflow or adding more capacity. I mean really, if you can't handle your shooting and time management to swap a card out to not interrupt a session, given that even small cards hold literally hundreds of raw files - then that photog has bigger problems.
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

And now for something completely different......

Remember that the average photographer shoots in the automatic mode.....

That most users doesn't have a clue that there is a valid argument for dual slots......

That even if a Rebel had two slots, most would not use it.....



At this point, take a lesson from your phone, a device which backs up pictures to the cloud.... if you really want photo backup for the masses, this is the way to do it..... the masses are not shooting hundreds of pictures per day and are not going to run a file backup system.... Sure Neuro does this, or I do it, or a significant proportion of CR readers do it, but (and I can not emphasize this enough), WE ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC!
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

Don Haines said:
And now for something completely different......

Remember that the average photographer shoots in the automatic mode.....

That most users doesn't have a clue that there is a valid argument for dual slots......

That even if a Rebel had two slots, most would not use it.....



At this point, take a lesson from your phone, a device which backs up pictures to the cloud.... if you really want photo backup for the masses, this is the way to do it..... the masses are not shooting hundreds of pictures per day and are not going to run a file backup system.... Sure Neuro does this, or I do it, or a significant proportion of CR readers do it, but (and I can not emphasize this enough), WE ARE NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC!

I just asked my wife if her photos on her phone are backed up on the cloud. She just looked at me weird and said "I dunno". I bet if I asked my sister or my non techy friends they would have similar responses. The technology to back up is there but a lot of people just don't know about it. Some of my friends have lost photos after breaking their phones which puzzles me because I thought it was automatically backed up.

My iPhone pics are backed up through Dropbox, I'm not exactly sure if iCloud backs up pics and videos to be honest (edit - I just checked my setting and I have that switched off, forgot I did that!). I thought it was just my contacts and apps. I also have a PC back up just in case.

You're right, the vast majority don't even realize the issues we are arguing about here.
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

You have some valid points, but the point of many others, myself included, is that we 'just don't care' about having a second card slot, and would rather have a flippy screen or cheaper camera than a second slot, because we'll never use it, even if it's in the camera we already have.

There is both a financial cost (more expensive camera, double the number of cards needed) and workflow cost (if you're not importing both cards, then you simply don't know you've had a problem) to running dual cards for redundancy, and I simply couldn't be bothered with it. If I was shooting a fast paced, critical job, where there was no time to review in camera, things might be different, but that's the 5D4/1D series market anyway - those cameras already exist.

I wear a seat belt, and drive a car with 6 airbags, traction control and AWD. I wear a bike helmet. I back up my computer to local-off line, off-site-off line and cloud backup (crashplan).

I've had multiple CF cards completely fail in camera, and one SD card corrupt a few files - but with file recovery tools I got 99% of the files even off the CF cards the camera couldn't read. My LR masters folder is sitting at 1.2TB, and I've lost less than 100 images due to card corruption.



K said:
Zv said:
I'm very much interested in how this thinking of the need for dual card slots came about. At what point in the history of photography did people start to fear the loss of their pictures so much that it drove the demand to include a second card slot?

While you didn't bring it up, in this forum this is the classic anti-dual slot Canon apologist argument is "since the beginning of digital, everyone had 1 slot, we were OK"

This is beyond irrelevant and fallacious.

First of all, it is anti-progress. It denies and resists progress.

Secondly, to compare it in a way that will help illustrate how silly this line of arguments are --

Cars did not have seatbelts at one time...

Homes did not have smoke detectors / fire alarms...

Microsoft Word didn't have auto-save...

Yes, the world still went on, but data was more easily lost. In the early days of digital, photographers ran with more risk during their shoots. Yes, while card failures are indeed rare -- there have been and still are events that are ruined because of this. There are couples to this day who have their wedding shoots ruined because of card failures.

In this day an age, that is not just bad luck or an unfortunate accident. This is the negligence of the photographer not securing the data because today, there are options. Back then, there weren't any options other than running two cameras. Which many did regardless since they would rather have 2 cameras than swapping lenses. Either way, only one camera is going to capture the first kiss.

Some say film was was worse. I disagree. While statistically more film was ruined due to user error than cards have ever failed -- the key is 'user error'

I never ruined a roll of film forgetting to rewind on my old Minolta. Discipline. I have control over it. There's ZERO control over whether a memory card fails. You can be completely perfect, and on its own, for reasons unknown it just dies on you.

One would expect, for a $2,000 body dual cards would be a given.


If we are to assume that the average person snaps their precious photos on a smartphone or point and shoot then surely those devises should be the ones to first include a back up system, yet they don't. (Well not by default)

Most people's phones backup photos to the cloud as they are taken. Whether Apple or Android. This wasn't the case at the beginning of smartphones, but it is something valued and exists today. It was even marketed as an important aspect of using their cloud services. Backup and save your photos. All your precious moments safe from loss.


If anything dual slots should be included in the lowest end of the camera spectrum as those consumers are more likely to have cheaper and less reliable SD cards.

This is a fallacy. While higher end cards may have a better reliability record then some generic garbage cards, they too have corruption. I had a Sandisk Pro CF card die. This was the highest quality, highest end card on the market at the time. It was pretty new too - maybe 2-3 shoots on it at most. Fortunately, the SD card in my 5D3 saved the stills. Unfortunately, I lost the video I took because 5D3 saves that to only 1 card. I had some SD cards choke too.

When I read all these "I never had a card fail" posts that so many people here, and on other forums make ...

I think, well, maybe you haven't been in a car wreck to appreciate a seatbelt and an airbag either.

After that, I think - here's a person that hasn't done much photography. If you do enough work, and enough shooting - over the course of years it is almost certain it will happen. If it doesn't you are either exceptionally lucky despite the fact that card failures are rare, or you are very low volume.

Everyone I know who has big shutter counts and has shot for years has had a card go bad on them.

Finally, most people are not computer and tech geeks. They likely don't follow technology other than new product releases. In other words, they don't read about how technology works. Memory cards have a limited read/write life. And regardless of the claims of manufactures citing X amount of read/write cycles before failure, this can and does happen a lot sooner. Not to mention, the more and more reads and writes, the more they slow down too. They degrade.

The older a card by use, the more likely it is to fail. Although, new cards go bad for no apparent reason too.


Back up is just one advantage to them but not the primary reason for the dual slots existence in these cameras.


Not according to those I've talked to and worked with. It's all about instant data redundancy. It takes a few seconds to swap out a card, so it isn't about speeding up workflow or adding more capacity. I mean really, if you can't handle your shooting and time management to swap a card out to not interrupt a session, given that even small cards hold literally hundreds of raw files - then that photog has bigger problems.
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

Zv said:
I'm very much interested in how this thinking of the need for dual card slots came about. At what point in the history of photography did people start to fear the loss of their pictures so much that it drove the demand to include a second card slot?

I don't think that 'fear of loss' or the ability to make an instant backup was the reason Canon started including dual slots. Rather, it was intended to allow flexiblity in recording media. If you look back, the Canon 1D and 1Ds had a single CF card slot. With the 1DII and 1DsII, Canon added a second slot for an SD card. As PBD has pointed out, having cards of two different types isn't ideal for storing duplicates, especially when one slot has a slower speed and therefore becomes a bottleneck. For Canon, it's really only the 1D X that I'd consider offers a true backup capability (the prior 1-series and all other dual slot cameras are CF/SD, except the 1D X II which is CFast/CF). When they added dual slots to the 5-series, the CF+SD configuration meant an easier upgrade path for those using SD-slot cameras.

OTOH, while the Nikon D1 and D2 cameras had only a single slot, with the D3 they want to dual CF slots – that's a real duplication/backup solution. They've maintained that strategy in the D5, which you can get in dual-CF or a dual-XQD configurations, but not with mixed slots.
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

neuroanatomist said:
Zv said:
I'm very much interested in how this thinking of the need for dual card slots came about. At what point in the history of photography did people start to fear the loss of their pictures so much that it drove the demand to include a second card slot?

I don't think that 'fear of loss' or the ability to make an instant backup was the reason Canon started including dual slots. Rather, it was intended to allow flexiblity in recording media. If you look back, the Canon 1D and 1Ds had a single CF card slot. With the 1DII and 1DsII, Canon added a second slot for an SD card. As PBD has pointed out, having cards of two different types isn't ideal for storing duplicates, especially when one slot has a slower speed and therefore becomes a bottleneck. For Canon, it's really only the 1D X that I'd consider offers a true backup capability (the prior 1-series and all other dual slot cameras are CF/SD, except the 1D X II which is CFast/CF). When they added dual slots to the 5-series, the CF+SD configuration meant an easier upgrade path for those using SD-slot cameras.

OTOH, while the Nikon D1 and D2 cameras had only a single slot, with the D3 they want to dual CF slots – that's a real duplication/backup solution. They've maintained that strategy in the D5, which you can get in dual-CF or a dual-XQD configurations, but not with mixed slots.
One of the advantages of the lowly SD card is portability.... I can pop the card out and slip it into a laptop, a TV, a WD backup drive....
 
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Re: EOS 6D Mark II & EOS Rebel SL2 to be Announced at the Same Time [CR2]

neuroanatomist said:
Zv said:
I'm very much interested in how this thinking of the need for dual card slots came about. At what point in the history of photography did people start to fear the loss of their pictures so much that it drove the demand to include a second card slot?

I don't think that 'fear of loss' or the ability to make an instant backup was the reason Canon started including dual slots. Rather, it was intended to allow flexiblity in recording media. If you look back, the Canon 1D and 1Ds had a single CF card slot. With the 1DII and 1DsII, Canon added a second slot for an SD card. As PBD has pointed out, having cards of two different types isn't ideal for storing duplicates, especially when one slot has a slower speed and therefore becomes a bottleneck. For Canon, it's really only the 1D X that I'd consider offers a true backup capability (the prior 1-series and all other dual slot cameras are CF/SD, except the 1D X II which is CFast/CF). When they added dual slots to the 5-series, the CF+SD configuration meant an easier upgrade path for those using SD-slot cameras.

OTOH, while the Nikon D1 and D2 cameras had only a single slot, with the D3 they want to dual CF slots – that's a real duplication/backup solution. They've maintained that strategy in the D5, which you can get in dual-CF or a dual-XQD configurations, but not with mixed slots.

Thank you I was thinking that it could have been first introduced to help with transitioning between different card types but wasn't sure so left it out of my ramblings! It was quite evident with the 1DXII as the decision to keep the CF slot meant consumers with a bunch of CF cards weren't out of pocket and could continue shooting with the new camera and slowly transition to CFast.

Interesting about Nikon though. I guess they went a different way.
 
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