How does the reveal of the final 7D2 specs make you feel?

[jocau]

I actually don't really care anymore, because lately I've been looking at the mirrorless options from Fuji (X-T1) and Sony (A7). But I'm expecting the same, rather poor dynamic range at low ISO for the 7DII which we, Canon users, all know too well.

 

[jrista]

DPAF uses every pixel covering 80% of the image sensor, no image data are lost, no interpolation is required, and on that 20 MP sensor you have 16 million AF points.

That's actually not true, and I'm pretty sure you know that. You need multiple DPAF pixels to be able to properly detect a phase differential, just like the strips in a dedicated PDAF sensor are made up of multiple pixels in strait or diagonal lines.

You don't actually have 16 million AF points. No one (outside of Canon anyway) really knows exactly how DPAF works...for all we know, that 80% of the sensor might simply act as one giant line sensor. Based on reviews about the Cinema EOS line after they were upgraded with DPAF, that is exactly how it's described, as "A" focus point...not "many" focus points. The C300 reviews also indicated that the DPAF focus point only really works properly when the subjects are largely centered in the frame...in the periphery, it doesn't work as well. One review also recommended switching to manual focus after acquiring the initial subject lock...so, there certainly seems room to grow for DPAF.

 

[ts636]

As a sports shooter the 3 main things I was hoping for from the 7d Mk2 were a top notch autofocus system, more frames per second and better high ISO performance. It looks like I may have got them all. Time and the first reviews will tell. As long as the price is reasonable I think I'll be having one.

 

[ahsanford]

Exactly! OMG we have that 18Mpx sensor in lowest model. Does Canon want to pretend that two more megapixels and some AF upgrades and circuity for these is normal after 5 or more like nearly 8 years of that sensor tech birth?, DOH....

Professional photographers and crazy sports/birding/wildlife enthusiasts -- who this camera is being made for -- care far less about pixel counts than you do. Resolution matters, but low light performance, burst, AF and build quality matter as well.

I'm not defending Canon here (the spec list is 'sensibly better' but not earth-shaking), but if I was a current Canon 7D user, the new 7D2 would offer the following improvements:

• A world class AF system on many levels
• 10 fps
• A very nice video option that should roundly satisfy casual video people: all sorts of video AF options for those who are not comfortable with manual focusing
• Some amount of low light improvement. As said before, we don't know how much, but it's been five years...

And that's worth $1500-2000 to them, I am certain of that.

Consider the alternatives:

• Migrate to the competitive similar option: Nikon D7100 and all new lenses. Someone run the numbers for me on that, assuming you have to replace 3-4 lenses. I'm guessing you'd be paying the equivalent of 1DX body money to get a better (?) camera. Fail. No one will do this other than those that like to burn money.
• Migrate to Canon full frame and need a fair amount pricier new lenses to recoup the length you've lost. A lot of shooters make that jump at some point in their lives, but 'reach' shooters are somewhat hosed here. if you were shooting a 100-400L or 300L prime on a 7D, reproducing that length in FF terms without needing a teleconverter is a massive inflection point for cost.
• Leave SLRs behind and pick up a cool/small/impressive Sony, Fuji or Olympus mirrorless rig. If you leave a sophisticated tool like a 7D for mirrorless, you probably didn't need the 7D in the first place. I am not knocking mirrorless, not at all -- I just think the 7D is a birding/wildlife/sports camera and mirrorless is many things... but it isn't a birding/wildlife/sports platform.

Again, I'm not defending Canon so much as state that in this specific segment in this specific need (flagship-level crop body, reach shooters, supertele owners, etc.), Canon will not lose a soul here unless they do something absolutely idiotic with price.

- A

 

[3kramd5]

DPAF uses every pixel covering 80% of the image sensor, no image data are lost, no interpolation is required, and on that 20 MP sensor you have 16 million AF points.

That's actually not true, and I'm pretty sure you know that. You need multiple DPAF pixels to be able to properly detect a phase differential, just like the strips in a dedicated PDAF sensor are made up of multiple pixels in strait or diagonal lines.

You don't actually have 16 million AF points.

Bear with me for a second. On a standard PDAF unit, there are discreet lines of pixels making up individual AF points. On DPAF (lovely similarity between acronyms), there aren't discrete lines of pixels, there is a grid of pixels.

Say it takes 3 adjacent pixels (random number, I'm sure it's far more) to constitute a line. If I have 10 adjacent pixels, I have 8 lines. My number of lines is limited by the borders.

Scale that up.

Given the total 20-ish megapixels and however many are necessary to constitute functioning lines, is it impossible that there are 16 million locations in which phase can be detected?

canon is not about invention. these times are long gone.

To that point... out of curiosity, if Canon followed Nikon's lead and started purchasing sensors from a third party vendor and instantly made up the low-iso-DR and resolution gaps, would that constitute innovation/invention?

 

[FEBS]

In good light the 7D is a good performer. However, once you used the AF of the 5D3 or the 1Dx, you see the differences over there.

It's not just the AF. It's also the sensor.

No no. The AF compared in good light between 7D and on the other hand 5D3 or 1Dx is always in the advantage for the last ones. The AF of the 7D does really not get the same level of accuracy as the other 2. That has nothing to do with the sensor at that moment but purely with the AF sensor. Of course the pictures of the 5D3 and 1Dx look really better compared to the 7D, and of course this is not only caused by better AF but even mainly by FF sensor which gathers more light compared a ASP-C.

And, IMHO, a camera that only works well in "good light" is not a wildlife camera.

I agree, wildlife asks for pictures early and late on the day, so light conditions are not that good. So the wildlife camera to beat is the 1Dx, however now with the better 70D sensor inside, a 7D2 might do it well but can't reach of course the 1Dx at lower light conditions.

 

[Loswr]

DPAF uses every pixel covering 80% of the image sensor, no image data are lost, no interpolation is required, and on that 20 MP sensor you have 16 million AF points.

That's actually not true, and I'm pretty sure you know that. You need multiple DPAF pixels to be able to properly detect a phase differential, just like the strips in a dedicated PDAF sensor are made up of multiple pixels in strait or diagonal lines.

You don't actually have 16 million AF points. No one (outside of Canon anyway) really knows exactly how DPAF works...for all we know, that 80% of the sensor might simply act as one giant line sensor.

Technically true, but any point can be the center of that line (well...to forestall the next nit being picked, almost any point, but not the points at or near the edges of the active DPAF area). It's not 'one giant line sensor', as I'm sure you know. The other big advantage is the 'length' of the sensor line used for PDAF can be matched to the max aperture of the mounted lens to yield the optimal accuracy for that aperture.

Based on reviews about the Cinema EOS line after they were upgraded with DPAF, that is exactly how it's described, as "A" focus point...not "many" focus points. The C300 reviews also indicated that the DPAF focus point only really works properly when the subjects are largely centered in the frame...in the periphery, it doesn't work as well. One review also recommended switching to manual focus after acquiring the initial subject lock...so, there certainly seems room to grow for DPAF.

As for the upgraded Cinema EOS cameras, you seem to be making a flawed assumption that the portion of the sensor used for DPAF is similar for those two very different cameras. It's 80% of the sensor for the 70D, but only the central 20% of the image vertically and 25% horizontally for the upgraded C300. It only works in the center because the DPAF active area is only in the center. Interesting that the review you mention says DPAF 'doesn't work as well in the periphery' – how does it work there at all, when Canon states that it's only in the middle of the frame??

 

[transpo1]

No 4K or RAW so disappointed but not surprised- I'm curious to see if there are any features Canon tries to push as video upgrades besides dual pixel...an included intervalometer is cool for us filmmakers.

 

[AccipiterQ]

Posted this in another thread, sums up how I feel:

I shoot wildlife/sports/action photography. I use a T2i right now when I'm shooting with a crop. Know why? My glass is all Canon. If it wasn't for that I'd have switched. The 70D offers absolutely no improvement in image quality over the T2i. It's the same flippin sensor, just using new technologies to squeeze a .001% image quality improvement out of it. Now this is coming out with the SAME F'ING SENSOR. The sensor is about 80% of the reason you'd buy a camera, once you choose your subject matter. The 7Dii is going to be a glorified T2i. Same old ancient sensor technology, with a few useless bells & whistles, none of which get down to the root: THEY HAVEN'T MADE A SINGLE INNOVATION IN SENSOR TECHNOLOGY IN YEARS. It's the same mediocre sensor, just rehashed. This is why they're starting to, or will continue to lose market share to other companies. Absolutely insane that it took a half decade to refresh, and it's basically going to be the exact same camera with the exact same sensor, just with a tiiiiny bit extra squeezed out of that sensor. Absolute garbage. I can't tell you how pissed off I am right now.

 

[FEBS]

[quote author=AccipiterQ ]
[/quote]

Will tell you here the same as on the other thread man!!!

Don't let me laugh. The reason you bought a T2i as a camera for wildlife/sports/action photography is for sure NOT the sensor. Be honest, it was the price.

What a thought that the sensor would be 80% responsible for the purchase of such a camera. If sensor quality would be that important to you, then you would have bought a 1-series. Nothing else. What a bullsh_t you are telling here. And what about the 5D3 sensor? No progress made?

As a wildlife/sports/action photographer you are not interested in those fps, 65 crosspoints AF, f8, ... ? You really make me laugh man, don't call yourself a action photographer if you are only interested in the highest quality sensor.

If you have that good Canon glass, then simple do buy a 1Dx and stop complaining and stop telling such a nonsense !!!

 

[ahsanford]

Posted this in another thread, sums up how I feel:

I shoot wildlife/sports/action photography. I use a T2i right now when I'm shooting with a crop. Know why? My glass is all Canon. If it wasn't for that I'd have switched. The 70D offers absolutely no improvement in image quality over the T2i. It's the same flippin sensor, just using new technologies to squeeze a .001% image quality improvement out of it. Now this is coming out with the SAME F'ING SENSOR. The sensor is about 80% of the reason you'd buy a camera, once you choose your subject matter. The 7Dii is going to be a glorified T2i. Same old ancient sensor technology, with a few useless bells & whistles, none of which get down to the root: THEY HAVEN'T MADE A SINGLE INNOVATION IN SENSOR TECHNOLOGY IN YEARS. It's the same mediocre sensor, just rehashed. This is why they're starting to, or will continue to lose market share to other companies. Absolutely insane that it took a half decade to refresh, and it's basically going to be the exact same camera with the exact same sensor, just with a tiiiiny bit extra squeezed out of that sensor. Absolute garbage. I can't tell you how pissed off I am right now.

I hear you, I do. But let me understand the train of thought:

T2i = 18 MP sensor
70D = 20.2 MP sensor (absolutely not the same sensor)

However, at least for noise, I do agree there isn't much difference between the two:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Comparisons/Canon-EOS-Rebel-T2i-550D-Digital-SLR-Camera.aspx

But that's the T2i vs. the 70D. Just because the new 7D2 sensor is 20.2 MP doesn't mean that it's the same one.

Again, we don't know the low light performance of this new sensor. Unless we have confirmation from an interview with a Chuck Westfall that it is in fact the same (not gonna happen) or a teardown that it's the same component (and I'm sure there's more to it than just the sensor itself), we don't know what we're dealing with here. Sensor performance is not something a spec sheet will tell us. So we have to let the Bryan Carnathans of the world shoot the samples with the 7D2 (like the ones I linked) and then we'll know for sure.

But yeah, if I was in the market for a new APS-C body, the name 7D2 alone isn't enough to get my money -- especially based on Canon's APS-C sensor track record. I would want to see reviews, specifically noise information.

- A

 

[AccipiterQ]

[quote author=AccipiterQ ]

Will tell you here the same as on the other thread man!!!

Don't let me laugh. The reason you bought a T2i as a camera for wildlife/sports/action photography is for sure NOT the sensor. Be honest, it was the price.

What a thought that the sensor would be 80% responsible for the purchase of such a camera. If sensor quality would be that important to you, then you would have bought a 1-series. Nothing else. What a bullsh_t you are telling here. And what about the 5D3 sensor? No progress made?

As a wildlife/sports/action photographer you are not interested in those fps, 65 crosspoints AF, f8, ... ? You really make me laugh man, don't call yourself a action photographer if you are only interested in the highest quality sensor.

If you have that good Canon glass, then simple do buy a 1Dx and stop complaining and stop telling such a nonsense !!!
[/quote]

I bought the T2i several years ago when I first needed a crop and wanted to cut my teeth. The 5D3 isn't a crop, it's FF.

 

[AccipiterQ]

Posted this in another thread, sums up how I feel:

I shoot wildlife/sports/action photography. I use a T2i right now when I'm shooting with a crop. Know why? My glass is all Canon. If it wasn't for that I'd have switched. The 70D offers absolutely no improvement in image quality over the T2i. It's the same flippin sensor, just using new technologies to squeeze a .001% image quality improvement out of it. Now this is coming out with the SAME F'ING SENSOR. The sensor is about 80% of the reason you'd buy a camera, once you choose your subject matter. The 7Dii is going to be a glorified T2i. Same old ancient sensor technology, with a few useless bells & whistles, none of which get down to the root: THEY HAVEN'T MADE A SINGLE INNOVATION IN SENSOR TECHNOLOGY IN YEARS. It's the same mediocre sensor, just rehashed. This is why they're starting to, or will continue to lose market share to other companies. Absolutely insane that it took a half decade to refresh, and it's basically going to be the exact same camera with the exact same sensor, just with a tiiiiny bit extra squeezed out of that sensor. Absolute garbage. I can't tell you how pissed off I am right now.

I hear you, I do. But let me understand the train of thought:

T2i = 18 MP sensor
70D = 20.2 MP sensor (absolutely not the same sensor)

However, at least for noise, I do agree there isn't much difference between the two:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Comparisons/Canon-EOS-Rebel-T2i-550D-Digital-SLR-Camera.aspx

But that's the T2i vs. the 70D. Just because the new 7D2 sensor is 20.2 MP doesn't mean that it's the same one.

Again, we don't know the low light performance of this new sensor. Unless we have confirmation from an interview with a Chuck Westfall that it is in fact the same (not gonna happen) or a teardown that it's the same component (and I'm sure there's more to it than just the sensor itself), we don't know what we're dealing with here. Sensor performance is not something a spec sheet will tell us. So we have to let the Bryan Carnathans of the world shoot the samples with the 7D2 (like the ones I linked) and then we'll know for sure.

But yeah, if I was in the market for a new APS-C body, the name 7D2 alone isn't enough to get my money -- especially based on Canon's APS-C sensor track record. I would want to see reviews, specifically noise information.

- A

I should have clarified, my biggest beef is with noise. I can be standing next to someone shooting a Nikon and they're at IS01600, meanwhile I'm at 200 because even 400 starts to show way too much noise. I'm thinking it's the same sensor (at least tech wise) since it's the EXACT same mp amount. VERY fishy. I guess we'll see

 

[Dylan777]

it makes me feel ... "i told you so".
Another fairly minimal iteration of a mirrorslapper. So little progress after 5 years. Not even WiFi built in. :

You call that "Another fairly minimal iteration of a mirrorslapper" ?

I wonder what kinda camera you shooting with?

 

[Dylan777]

Posted this in another thread, sums up how I feel:

I shoot wildlife/sports/action photography. I use a T2i right now when I'm shooting with a crop. Know why? My glass is all Canon. If it wasn't for that I'd have switched. The 70D offers absolutely no improvement in image quality over the T2i. It's the same flippin sensor, just using new technologies to squeeze a .001% image quality improvement out of it. Now this is coming out with the SAME F'ING SENSOR. The sensor is about 80% of the reason you'd buy a camera, once you choose your subject matter. The 7Dii is going to be a glorified T2i. Same old ancient sensor technology, with a few useless bells & whistles, none of which get down to the root: THEY HAVEN'T MADE A SINGLE INNOVATION IN SENSOR TECHNOLOGY IN YEARS. It's the same mediocre sensor, just rehashed. This is why they're starting to, or will continue to lose market share to other companies. Absolutely insane that it took a half decade to refresh, and it's basically going to be the exact same camera with the exact same sensor, just with a tiiiiny bit extra squeezed out of that sensor. Absolute garbage. I can't tell you how pissed off I am right now.

How much $$$ did you put into Canon lenses? If you think Canon is "Absolute garbage", then why not switch to another brand?

 

[Random Orbits]

it makes me feel ... "i told you so".
Another fairly minimal iteration of a mirrorslapper. So little progress after 5 years. Not even WiFi built in. :

You call that "Another fairly minimal iteration of a mirrorslapper" ?

I wonder what kinda camera you shooting with?

I think he's still using the 7D and M.

 

[beforeEos Camaras]

Posted this in another thread, sums up how I feel:

I shoot wildlife/sports/action photography. I use a T2i right now when I'm shooting with a crop. Know why? My glass is all Canon. If it wasn't for that I'd have switched. The 70D offers absolutely no improvement in image quality over the T2i. It's the same flippin sensor, just using new technologies to squeeze a .001% image quality improvement out of it. Now this is coming out with the SAME F'ING SENSOR. The sensor is about 80% of the reason you'd buy a camera, once you choose your subject matter. The 7Dii is going to be a glorified T2i. Same old ancient sensor technology, with a few useless bells & whistles, none of which get down to the root: THEY HAVEN'T MADE A SINGLE INNOVATION IN SENSOR TECHNOLOGY IN YEARS. It's the same mediocre sensor, just rehashed. This is why they're starting to, or will continue to lose market share to other companies. Absolutely insane that it took a half decade to refresh, and it's basically going to be the exact same camera with the exact same sensor, just with a tiiiiny bit extra squeezed out of that sensor. Absolute garbage. I can't tell you how pissed off I am right now.

I hear you, I do. But let me understand the train of thought:

T2i = 18 MP sensor
70D = 20.2 MP sensor (absolutely not the same sensor)

However, at least for noise, I do agree there isn't much difference between the two:
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Comparisons/Canon-EOS-Rebel-T2i-550D-Digital-SLR-Camera.aspx

But that's the T2i vs. the 70D. Just because the new 7D2 sensor is 20.2 MP doesn't mean that it's the same one.

Again, we don't know the low light performance of this new sensor. Unless we have confirmation from an interview with a Chuck Westfall that it is in fact the same (not gonna happen) or a teardown that it's the same component (and I'm sure there's more to it than just the sensor itself), we don't know what we're dealing with here. Sensor performance is not something a spec sheet will tell us. So we have to let the Bryan Carnathans of the world shoot the samples with the 7D2 (like the ones I linked) and then we'll know for sure.

But yeah, if I was in the market for a new APS-C body, the name 7D2 alone isn't enough to get my money -- especially based on Canon's APS-C sensor track record. I would want to see reviews, specifically noise information.

- A

I should have clarified, my biggest beef is with noise. I can be standing next to someone shooting a Nikon and they're at IS01600, meanwhile I'm at 200 because even 400 starts to show way too much noise. I'm thinking it's the same sensor (at least tech wise) since it's the EXACT same mp amount. VERY fishy. I guess we'll see

noise? really I truly find these camera's truly amazing. compare image with tri x pushed to 1000 iso yes black and white that sir is noise. my first camera was the ftb-n with a 1.8 sc lens and a stop range of 1.8 to 16

 

[scyrene]

I actually don't really care anymore, because lately I've been looking at the mirrorless options from Fuji (X-T1) and Sony (A7). But I'm expecting the same, rather poor dynamic range at low ISO for the 7DII which we, Canon users, all know too well.

Yawn. If this is an action camera, as most suggest, then low-ISO DR is way down the list of what's important. Landscape photographers should look elsewhere.

 

[pdirestajr]

Wait! Where is the 1D style top?????? That does it for me, I'm switching to Samsung.

 

[jrista]

I actually don't really care anymore, because lately I've been looking at the mirrorless options from Fuji (X-T1) and Sony (A7). But I'm expecting the same, rather poor dynamic range at low ISO for the 7DII which we, Canon users, all know too well.

Yawn. If this is an action camera, as most suggest, then low-ISO DR is way down the list of what's important. Landscape photographers should look elsewhere.

And what about action photographers? Is limited DR ok for them? Is the 2+ stops DR improvement achieved by the A7s irrelevant? It isn't just a low ISO game anymore. DR has been improved across the board, top to bottom, high to low, in Sony's sensors. Canon no longer has the lead at high ISO. The lead they once enjoyed was marginal at best as well. At high ISO, it isn't even so much about "recovery"...your still generally 'limited' (using the word very loosely) to about 9 stops on an A7s at ISO 51200, which is largely going to fit within the dynamic range of modern screens. The major difference with the A7s is the massive increase to SNR...it's about double or so compared to even the vaunted 1D X, on top of the huge DR increase (6.6 stops 1D X, 8.8 stops A7s, at ISO 51200). THAT is HUGE for high ISO IQ. Massively huge. It means a literal one-stop or greater improvement in noise, which I didn't even think was possible (and I still don't know how they did it....other than the fact that their sensor just seems to suck up light like it was candy.)