Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?

[raptor3x]

The Nikon D810 is better than the Canon 5DIII in every respect.

That's the second time you've made that ridiculous claim. Let's start with some really, really simple questions.

• How is the D810's 5 frames per second better than the 5DIII's 6 frames per second?
• How are the D810's 15 cross-type AF points better than the 5DIII's 41 cross-type AF points?
• How are the D810's zero f/2.8-sensitive AF points better than the 5DIII's five f/2.8-sensitive AF points?

I look forward to your explanations...you can back up your claim, right??

I was going to post something similar but I'll just add that if you need AF tracking in portrait orientation then the 5D3 is significantly superior as no Nikon camera has any cross-type points away from the center of the frame. I haven't had a chance to test a D810, but I know this is still true for the D4s so it's probably true for the D810 as well. That said, the new D4s/D810 AF is a pretty noticeable improvement and has definitely narrowed the gap as long as you can keep the subject in the center of the frame.

 

[jrista]

The Nikon D810 is better than the Canon 5DIII in every respect. The sensor is 2 generations better.

You have that backwards. The D810 is better than the Canon in ONE KEY respect. The sensor IS 2 generations better. The D810 might have a better meter as well, however for what that better sensor is most often used for, I wouldn't say the meter maters much.

However, in every other respect, the 5D III is still the superior camera, with a better AF system, higher frame rate, quieter shutter and mirror slap, etc. It is also accompanied by a better ecosystem, including all the various kinds of lenses, some very unique lenses (i.e. MP-E 65mm 1-5x Zoom Macro, 17mm TS-E, 200-400 w/ integrated TC, etc.), and a whole host of top of the line accessories, including the phenomenal RT flash system.

The D810 closed the gap that existed between the 5D III and the D800, and it does have the superior sensor...but that is a different thing than the D810 somehow being superior in every respect. The D810 still suffers from Nikon's manufacturing issues...even it has a problem with sensor spots (only this time they are white spots, instead of black oil and dust spots.)

I'm all for more DR, but the sensor alone still doesn't make the camera, or the ecosystem, better.

 

[raptor3x]

However, in every other respect, the 5D III is still the superior camera, with a better AF system, higher frame rate, quieter shutter and mirror slap, etc. It is also accompanied by a better ecosystem, including all the various kinds of lenses, some very unique lenses (i.e. MP-E 65mm 1-5x Zoom Macro, 17mm TS-E, 200-400 w/ integrated TC, etc.), and a whole host of top of the line accessories, including the phenomenal RT flash system.

I can swear I read somewhere that the D810 silent shutter mode is actually a couple dB better than the 5D3 version.

 

[Loswr]

[...the new D4s/D810 AF is a preetty noticeable improvement and has definitely narrowed the gap as long as you can keep the subject in the center of the frame.

Well, as I stated, I wanted to start simple.

But...you make a good point. As we all know, putting the subject in the center of the frame always makes for the strongest, most compelling images.

 

[c.d.embrey]

Re: Is this going anywhere?

This is pretty ridiculous. Who even really cares about which camera has the current technological edge. I'll wager money that I can give my father's old (a decade old or so) Konica Minolta 5D with the kit lens to a top notch photographer and he'll wipe the floor with some hobbyist with either a 5D3 or d810 who spends more time worrying about whether his camera is the technological best (has the best sensor, or the most dynamic range, etc.) than time getting out there taking photographs.

The Phoblographer agrees with you. No One is Making a Bad Camera, You’re Just a Bad Photographer http://www.thephoblographer.com/2014/08/09/one-making-bad-camera-youre-just-bad-photographer/

"... if you don’t have the vision, creativity, and the know-how when it comes to working with a scene and creating something then there is a strong chance that you’re going to be creating useless garbage."

 

[NancyP]

What C.D. said ;D

 

[jakeymate]

Well, as I stated, I wanted to start simple.

But...you make a good point. As we all know, putting the subject in the center of the frame always makes for the strongest, most compelling images.

Ah, the sarcasm is still there ;D

Have you used one John? Tell you what, go actually use one.

Just to dispel a coupe of inaccuracies I've seen so far.

The D810's shutter is quieter than the Mk3. The D800's clunker shutter wasn't of course, but the D810's is. It's very quiet.

The frame rate that John keep banging on about?

Well, Nikon's 36 megapixel, non OLPF 64 ISO studio camera can 'only do 5fps', in 36 meg mode and the 22 meg Mk3 can do 6FPS. That is true, but not the whole story if FPS is what you need.

Anyone who wants real machine gun FPS would clearly go for the D4s, but the D810 has a pipeline limitation with it's 36 meg.

It looks like the rumoured D750 will fill that gap, and deliver a higher FPS 24 meg FF.

That means Nikon will have the D610, the D750, the D810 and the D4s.

The real Mk3 equivalent is not the D810, and it was never meant to be, which can be seen from no OLPF, 36 meg, high low base DR and a base of 64.

The D750 will be that camera.

The D810 just happens to hold it's own with the Mk3, a camera that it wasn't designed to match. It's philosophy is complete different.

Canon on the other hand don't even have a killer high MP, wide low ISO DR studio/landscape camera.

No one mentions that the D810, really the best studio DSLR you can buy, can also double up as a sports cam and does 6fps in DX mode, delivering a very respectable 16 MP image.

Add the battery grip and that's 7FPS.

So when comparing like for like, let's actually do that shall we? Accuracy, not sarcastic cherry picking would be the better approach if comparisons are going to be made, and it seems they are.

You want a couple of things the Mk3 had that the D810 still doesn't?

Saved settings on the dial. I loved that on my Mk3, and my Gh4, and miss it on my D800/810.

The rate button. Tiny little addition that crept in on the Mk3 but I loved that. Being able to star images while a client was changing for the next setup up was so cool.

2 years later, Nikon still haven't added that, and I'd doubt it's on the D750 either.

Compare like for like, it makes everyone look less like fanboys and more like intelligent adults with no axe to grind.

 

[100]

Is there a point to this thread other than trying to irritate some Canon lovers?

Canon is a commercial company so they care about money above all else. Sales and profit. They outsell their competitors and have done so for the last 11 years. Ever since the Nikon D3 came out Canon is behind in the eyes of some gearheads, wanna-be technicians and self-proclaimed scientists. By now Canon should be broke or at least have dropped out of the top 5 camera companies. Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Pentax, Olympus… they all have way better sensor technology. And still Canon is no. 1….

Are all these Canon buying customers stupid? Are they nitwits that were indoctrinated by Canon’s marketing department? Or does Canon provide products that appeal to the wishes of large numbers of customers?
Just browse through sites like 500px or flickr select 50 recent photo’s you really like and look at the camera’s used to take those photo’s. You can’t take good photo’s with bad sensors, so there shouldn’t be any shots taken with Canon cameras…

 

[jrista]

However, in every other respect, the 5D III is still the superior camera, with a better AF system, higher frame rate, quieter shutter and mirror slap, etc. It is also accompanied by a better ecosystem, including all the various kinds of lenses, some very unique lenses (i.e. MP-E 65mm 1-5x Zoom Macro, 17mm TS-E, 200-400 w/ integrated TC, etc.), and a whole host of top of the line accessories, including the phenomenal RT flash system.

I can swear I read somewhere that the D810 silent shutter mode is actually a couple dB better than the 5D3 version.

That still isn't going to tip the scales. Assuming we can actually discern the difference of a decibel or two at the frequency with which a mirror slaps in a DSLR (human auditory discernment ranges from 0.7dB to 3dB...but it depends on the frequency of the sound as to which end of that range we can actually discern a difference), the 5D III is still a superior CAMERA. It has an inferior sensor...but it's still a superior camera overall.

That could change, for sure. The D820 may finally tip the scales...but I don't think it's happened yet.

 

[PureClassA]

*munching popcorn*

Just ordered a EOS M for $250. Got a FD mount converter for 13 bucks too. Bet I can shoot better pics with my 40 year old 50mm 1.4 FD and that EOS M than a Nikon crop sensor... *mmm popcorn*

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Well, as I stated, I wanted to start simple.

But...you make a good point. As we all know, putting the subject in the center of the frame always makes for the strongest, most compelling images.

Ah, the sarcasm is still there ;D

Have you used one John? Tell you what, go actually use one.

Just to dispel a coupe of inaccuracies I've seen so far.

The D810's shutter is quieter than the Mk3. The D800's clunker shutter wasn't of course, but the D810's is. It's very quiet.

The frame rate that John keep banging on about?

Well, Nikon's 36 megapixel, non OLPF 64 ISO studio camera can 'only do 5fps', in 36 meg mode and the 22 meg Mk3 can do 6FPS. That is true, but not the whole story if FPS is what you need.

Anyone who wants real machine gun FPS would clearly go for the D4s, but the D810 has a pipeline limitation with it's 36 meg.

It looks like the rumoured D750 will fill that gap, and deliver a higher FPS 24 meg FF.

That means Nikon will have the D610, the D750, the D810 and the D4s.

The real Mk3 equivalent is not the D810, and it was never meant to be, which can be seen from no OLPF, 36 meg, high low base DR and a base of 64.

The D750 will be that camera.

The D810 just happens to hold it's own with the Mk3, a camera that it wasn't designed to match. It's philosophy is complete different.

Canon on the other hand don't even have a killer high MP, wide low ISO DR studio/landscape camera.

No one mentions that the D810, really the best studio DSLR you can buy, can also double up as a sports cam and does 6fps in DX mode, delivering a very respectable 16 MP image.

Add the battery grip and that's 7FPS.

So when comparing like for like, let's actually do that shall we? Accuracy, not sarcastic cherry picking would be the better approach if comparisons are going to be made, and it seems they are.

You want a couple of things the Mk3 had that the D810 still doesn't?

Saved settings on the dial. I loved that on my Mk3, and my Gh4, and miss it on my D800/810.

The rate button. Tiny little addition that crept in on the Mk3 but I loved that. Being able to star images while a client was changing for the next setup up was so cool.

2 years later, Nikon still haven't added that, and I'd doubt it's on the D750 either.

Compare like for like, it makes everyone look less like fanboys and more like intelligent adults with no axe to grind.

+1

well said

(I will add one more 5D3 body plus though, video, WITH Magic Lantern, 5D3 ML RAW video utterly blows away D810 video.)

 

[raptor3x]

That still isn't going to tip the scales. Assuming we can actually discern the difference of a decibel or two at the frequency with which a mirror slaps in a DSLR (human auditory discernment ranges from 0.7dB to 3dB...but it depends on the frequency of the sound as to which end of that range we can actually discern a difference), the 5D III is still a superior CAMERA. It has an inferior sensor...but it's still a superior camera overall.

That could change, for sure. The D820 may finally tip the scales...but I don't think it's happened yet.

I agree, and doubt it really matters given how good the silent shutter on the 5D3 is already. My brother-in-law got married recently and the photographer was using a 5D3 and 6D. I was surprised by how quiet the shutter is when your face isn't pressed to the viewfinder as I'd never been on the business end of a 5D3 before.

 

[dtaylor]

The annoyances with the D800 were not a problem for what I mostly shoot, but IQ was my main concern and the D800 had it.

I can work around almost anything except problematic IQ.

There isn't a modern ILC with "problematic IQ." There are some that are slightly better for different tasks, but that's about it. We live in a golden age of photographic technology. We argue over tiny differences that don't matter most of the time, and barely matter even when they do.

That's the cold, hard truth.

I practically went blind studying sample files from the 5D3, A7, and A7R recently. With RAW files enlarged to 36 MP I could barely see any difference while pixel peeping. In print? No. Nor will anyone else unless you label the prints and tell them which has "more" so that their basic psychology comes into play just like in wine tasting. (The jump from 24 to 36 MP sounds like a lot, but is <25% on each axis. You need a jump of 50% or more on each axis to be noticeable. And at the resolutions we're talking about, even then this only happens with extremely fine detail on very large prints.)

As for DR/exposure latitude, for all the debate on this forum there has been exactly ONE test sample shot under identical conditions, the one from Fred Miranda. And if you actually do something crazy like, you know, use the NR sliders in ACR then you end up with slightly better shadows on the Nikon. It's barely evident at 24" and invisible at smaller sizes.

IQ is a wash within a format and even between formats (m43, APS-C, FF) at low ISO unless you pick from the ends of the resolution spectrum (12 vs 36). And even then the lower resolution sensor is still very good, just not able to print as large.

Heck, even the 1" sensors from Sony and Samsung are excellent at low ISO!

You will not be missing shots on a D810 that you would get on a Mk3, Rather the other way round.

You're not going to miss shots on either unless the 5D3 happens to catch the one frame you want at 6 fps vs. 5 fps, or the D810 at 7 fps in crop mode with the grip. And that's doubtful either way. A 1DX might nail shots you want that these two miss, but 1 extra fps is...1.

And this 'Canon lenses are better than Nikons' fairytale that is spoken like it's fact round here?

Pretty much every lens manufacturer has excellent, good, and crummy glass. I will say that Canon has the most capacity in terms of design and manufacturing, and they are getting wicked good at producing glass that has excellent IQ and is dirt cheap. But basically you can accomplish anything you could want in Canon or Nikon, and 99% of anything you could want in the other mounts.

85mm? Nikon 1.4 and 1.8 are more modern and better than the Canon equivalents which were released sometime during the 2nd word war it seems.

: The 85 f/1.8 is a modern design, fast focusing, with excellent IQ and bokeh. The Nikons seem sharper but have horrendous CA wide open. Meh. There are so many 85mm options now from 3rd parties that it's silly to even debate these.

I doubt it on here when 2-3 stops of DR is not desired by anyone it seems.

From the ONE test shot sample we've seen so far in...a half dozen?...threads on the topic that shall not die, DR is nearly identical with an edge to the D810 on exposure latitude. Oh my, better sell all my Canon gear :

DxO scoring is used dog food. That and "comparisons" where the tester turns off all NR on the Canon file are what's driving this nonsense.

Same with the 50mm range, except who'd get either a Nikon or a Canon when the Sigma 50m Art is so amazing?

The Art is sharp, sharp, sharp...but the bokeh can be...odd. I actually like the previous Sigma 50 better and I'm sticking with it. The bokeh is stunning on that one.

Nikon 14-24 F2.8? Stunning lens that Canon has no answer for.

16-35 f/4 IS. (It took them long enough.) Now let's see an answer for Canon's T/S lenses.

My point is that this assumption that Canon lenses are superior is uninformed at best and delusional logo fandom at worst.

Kind of like assuming and arguing over and over again that Exmor has 2-3 stops more DR :

 

[Loswr]

The Nikon D810 is better than the Canon 5DIII in every respect.

That's the second time you've made that ridiculous claim. Let's start with some really, really simple questions.

• How is the D810's 5 frames per second better than the 5DIII's 6 frames per second?

Oh, and I hope your answer to that first point won't foolishly invoke the higher frame rate in DX mode, unless you're prepared to also explain how using only 43% of the sensor area is better than using the whole thing.

 

[Shootitalready]

Gearheads are cool!!! 8)

That's a bit harsh maybe, but I have to say, many people here are acting like a bunch of ten year olds though.......

 

[Straightshooter]

The Nikon D810 is better than the Canon 5DIII in every respect.

That's the second time you've made that ridiculous claim. Let's start with some really, really simple questions.

• How is the D810's 5 frames per second better than the 5DIII's 6 frames per second?

Oh, and I hope your answer to that first point won't foolishly invoke the higher frame rate in DX mode, unless you're prepared to also explain how using only 43% of the sensor area is better than using the whole thing.

'Neuro'. Please let me know a postal address where I can have flowers delivered when you break the magical 14.000 posts barrier! All your pearls of wisdom have kept me entertained over the years.....



PS: hope you are self-employed, cause judging from the hours you usually post, you sure are using up a lot of 'company time' ;D

 

[jrista]

That still isn't going to tip the scales. Assuming we can actually discern the difference of a decibel or two at the frequency with which a mirror slaps in a DSLR (human auditory discernment ranges from 0.7dB to 3dB...but it depends on the frequency of the sound as to which end of that range we can actually discern a difference), the 5D III is still a superior CAMERA. It has an inferior sensor...but it's still a superior camera overall.

That could change, for sure. The D820 may finally tip the scales...but I don't think it's happened yet.

I agree, and doubt it really matters given how good the silent shutter on the 5D3 is already. My brother-in-law got married recently and the photographer was using a 5D3 and 6D. I was surprised by how quiet the shutter is when your face isn't pressed to the viewfinder as I'd never been on the business end of a 5D3 before.

Yeah, the shutter/mirror slap on the 5D III is pretty amazing. Even close up, it isn't really loud. It's actually got a somewhat complex sound, a mix of a slap, a thud, and a "clink"...maybe the sounds together help cancel each other out and that's what minimizes noise. Either way, it's MUCH more pleasant than the 7D slap.

 

[Aglet]

Yeah, the shutter/mirror slap on the 5D III is pretty amazing. Even close up, it isn't really loud. It's actually got a somewhat complex sound, a mix of a slap, a thud, and a "clink"...maybe the sounds together help cancel each other out and that's what minimizes noise. Either way, it's MUCH more pleasant than the 7D slap.

.. and far better than the barn-door-in-a-gale whack of the 5d2.

 

[jakeymate]

Oh, and I hope your answer to that first point won't foolishly invoke the higher frame rate in DX mode, unless you're prepared to also explain how using only 43% of the sensor area is better than using the whole thing.

Stating FACTS about the D810 FPS is foolish is it?

Resolution of Mk3? 5760 × 3840. Resolution of 1DX? 5184 × 3456.

D810 in DX mode? 4800x3200.

Why isn't DX mode a valid mode John? When you have 36 meg to start with, DX mode is still great when needed.

Th D810 has a way to match the FPS of the Mk3 (you may not find it useful, but it's there to be used for those that do), but no Canon can match the resolution of a D810.

For high FPS applications, a 1.5 reach is usually a good thing (not always), but often.

Now if there was a quality penalty for using DX mode, that would be an issue, but there isn't. In DX mode the D810 still has better image quality than any APC/DX camera.

Try starting a comment with this method.

'What is the neutral perspective here, rather than the Canon fanboy perspective.'

 

[jakeymate]

the 5D III is still a superior CAMERA. It has an inferior sensor...but it's still a superior camera overall.

Why?

I have owned both and I very strongly disagree.

Make a case, not bland sweeping statements.