Let’s talk about the Canon EOS R1 development [CR2]

EOS 4 Life

EOS M6 Mark II
Sep 20, 2020
89
51
What is a global shutter?
A rolling shutter is when the electronic shutter exposes the sensor one line at a time.
A global shutter is when the sensor is read completely in a single pass.
Rolling shutter can lead to artifacts if the light is changing, there are fast-moving subjects or the camera is moving.
 
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cayenne

EOS 5D Mark IV
CR Pro
Mar 28, 2012
2,390
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Apple can sell 217+ MILLION iPhones in 2018 (stats from Statista.com) so I think they can make and sell a BOATLOAD of new MF cameras, high end lenses (I am GUESSING the prime and zoom lenses are likely to be finally produced by SIGMA in Japan or Samyang Optics in South Korea -- the MF Camera and 16-bits-per-channel OLED Display panels themselves are PROBABLY going to be both made by LG with Apple-modded Sony Global Shutter Sensors -- The large image sensor super-smartphones are probably going to be made by TMSC in Taiwan or India with Sony Exmor GS Sensors!)

Apple's 3D printers LIKELY MAY be made by MarkedForge in the USA itself. The 32 inch and 83 inch displays are probably being assembled by TSMC in USA (Texas or Arizona) or Mexico using 8K and 16k resolution LG panels. The new 64-bit RGBA AMD GPU Super-Workstations will likely be made in USA probably in California or Texas.

Prices will be HIGH for consumers but very reasonable for BUSINESSES which will be the NEXT NEW primary market! Apple is going after the around-15,000,000 small to medium engineering, manufacturing and design houses that are around the world and even IF it gets only 10% of the market, the cost on 1.5 million items at $25,000 PER YEAR is a $37.5 Billion USD initial market share in just the first year!

And that market share COULD RISE to as much as $150 Billion+ Per Year by 2035! Those New Large Sensor Pro-level Super-Smartphones, MF Global Shutter Cameras+Lenses, the 3D Printers and the Apple-branded Plastic/Metal Powder Media is going to be near 60% of Apples Revenue by 2035! Apple+ Media Production and the lower-cost CONSUMER iPhones will then bulk out the rest of that revenue!

Canon is in FOR A REAL ROUGH RIDE once Apple BULKS UP with its pro-level media production and 3D printing products!

Those Large Sensor Super-Smartphones just themselves will KILL Canon's low-end M50 and Powershot camera market if they don't respond with more camera/lens features and better image quality at a better price. AND Canon NEEDS to get into Medium Format Sized pro-levels sensors at the $3500-to-$6000 price points --- An XC-20 MF style camera with a 65mm 60 fps 8K sensor non-overheating Global Shutter sensor WOULD work for that market!

To compete with a MONSTER company like Apple though, Canon MUST get into ruggedized pro-level Large Sensor 5G Super-Smartphones that have 64-to-128 Gigabytes of SYSTEM RAM, 1 to 4 terabytes of Flash Storage AND a large 2/3rds inch, 1 inch or APS-C sensors that sell for less than $2000 USD and a cheaper but still rugged 32 gig System RAM and One TB flash storage with 2/3rds inch sensor 5G smartphone for $900 just might save them from Apple's coming onslaught of new gear!

Canon AND Sony are in danger of being WIPED OUT by upcoming Apple and Samsung Super-Mobile Phone and BIG SENSOR Camera Systems and THEY MUST RESPOND by Next Year!

Is Canon DOOOOOOOOOMED ?????

I do must say that Apple IS coming fast so they BETTER RESPOND SOONER RATHER THAN LATER !!!!!!

V
Ok I'll bite.

Any ETA (year?) on when such Apple high end camera would make an appearance?

C
 

EOS 4 Life

EOS M6 Mark II
Sep 20, 2020
89
51
Canon AND Sony are in danger of being WIPED OUT by upcoming Apple and Samsung Super-Mobile Phone and BIG SENSOR Camera Systems and THEY MUST RESPOND by Next Year!
Sony makes quite a lot of phone camera sensors.
I am guessing they make a lot more money doing that than they do selling cameras.
Neither Canon nor Sony need to sell cameras to survive.
 
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degos

EOS RP
Mar 20, 2015
343
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It starts and stops "exposing" all pixels at the same time. Without this you get an effect called "rolling shutter." Note it's a little confusing: GLOBAL shutter is a type of or PROPERTY of an electronic sensor, while ROLLING shutter is the EFFECT of not having it.
All curtain-shutter cameras suffer from rolling shutter when panning or recording an object with angular momentum. Film or digital, doesn't matter. Aerial cameras use belted slit shutters instead to avoid this.

All mirrorless cameras suffer from readout smearing under the same circumstances, unless they have a global shutter

They have similar effects but different causes
 
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degos

EOS RP
Mar 20, 2015
343
269
Uh, you know Canon asked pros about the resolution and they deemed 20MP is good enough for the 1DX3?
They didn't ask me and I've been shooting with the series since the 1D3. They also didn't ask my acquaintances at the local newspaper. Do you know anyone they asked?

Canon traditionally define their products with the technology that is mature for that tier, not customer requests.
 

usern4cr

EOS RP
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
528
478
Kentucky, USA
I still wonder what has prevented Canon from alternating horizontally and vertically oriented Dual Pixels?
I will 2nd this! Their current dual pixels are all arranged in only 1 orientation, and as a result if you have only perfectly horizontal lines hitting the sensor then it can't detect anything to AF with. If every other line was vertically oriented then the camera could sense AF in both directions which would drastically improve AF ability and speed. It seems such an obvious choice to do that I'm surprised that they didn't do this already.

The only practical problem I could see is if the width of the different oriented dual pixel is different from the standard one then they couldn't pack the exact same number of pixels in the same width for the 2 styles of lines. If so, then maybe they could have a herring-bone style where each line has an alternating vertical and horizontal dual pixel, with each line shifting the choice by a pixel so the lines fit together like a puzzle. I'm sure that they've thought of all this, which might explain why it hasn't been done yet.
 
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BroderLund

5D Mark III
Feb 9, 2015
45
57
If not global shutter, then maybe a versjon of the DGO sensor from the C300 III/C70 would be pretty cool. It's tech that Canon already has. Global shutter is not as common in the Canon world.
 

usern4cr

EOS RP
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
528
478
Kentucky, USA
According to USA Today and Variety, respectively, US Summer 2016 Olympics viewership, across all platforms, was 27.5 million, and for the Winter 2018 Olympics, 17.8 million. That's a difference of about 35%, which is far less than the factor of 1000 that your numbers claim.

Having now researched Olympics viewership, I'm even more convinced that Canon would do well to showcase the R1 at the Winter 2022 Olympics.
Thanks, Navastonia, for this info. I hadn't thought of the Winter Olympics as a time to focus on for R1 introduction, but it certainly means it is possible. If I was Canon, I'd try to have the R1 ready for the experts to use in the summer Olympics so the hype could be used to sell it afterwards, while knowing if there's a delay then you have 6 (or so) months extra to get it out for the Winter Olympics instead. It's perfect! It also gives you 6 more months to deliver more lenses (especially big whites) to hype during the Winter Olympics that couldn't get out in time for the Summer Olympics.
 
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usern4cr

EOS RP
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
528
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===

Statista.com ( a decent quality and newsworthy statistics site) says that the 2010 Winter Games in Vancouver and Whistler, Canada (I live in Vancouver and Ski in Whistler often!) had a global TV and Online audience of 1.82 Billion People while the 2014 Sochi Winter Olympic games has a global TV and Online audience of 2.1 Billion Viewers.

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In terms of Camera Gear, Canon had better be coming out with BETTER IMAGE QUALITY and more FEATURE-RICH hybrid cameras and lens products because the UPCOMING GIANT 1000 KILO GORILLA in town is APPLE !!! And what is coming out from that behemoth IS UTTERLY STUNNING !!!

There! I just blabbed it out for the world to see!

Apple has two Large Sensor IP-69/MilSpec 810-G ruggedized PRO-LEVEL Super-Smartphones (2/3rds sensor and APS-C sensor) with FOUR TIMES the average system memory (64 gigs System RAM) and flash storage (1 and 2 TB) coming out soon!

Apple has a DCI 8K 120 fps 16 bits per channel Global Shutter MF Stills/Video camera (64-bit colour RGBA/YCbCrA with IR-based Kinect-like Alpha channel 3D distance measurement for all pixels and current GPS/3D-XYZ Orientation and Lens Metadata for every video frame and still photo!).

It has a whole set of VERY high-end stabilized Apple-branded prime and zoom and wide/telephoto lenses coming out! AND an Apple A12+ ARM-based super-chip is being PUT INTO The camera and phones for real-time computational imaging that will OUTPERFORM anything on the market and end-users CAN ADD NEW REAL-TIME and DELAYED STILL PHOTO and VIDEO PROCESSING FUNCTIONALITY for both the super-smartphones and the MF GS camera via an easy-to-use SDK!

Apple has one FULLY-ENCLOSED office-ready, small 300mm by 300mm by 300mm 3D-XYZ Plastic Filament and one large fully-enclosed and office-ready 750mm by 750mm by 750mm cubic print area Metal Powder Deposition Printer and REALLY EASY-TO-USE 3D CAD/CAM/FEA software are also coming out soon after the cameras and super-smartphones! What Apple did with its Laserprinter and Desktop publishing systems is NOW coming out for the world of 3D-XYZ plastic filament and metal powder deposition printing!

Apple now has a 32 inch DCI 8K (8192 x 4320 pixel) 240 Hz production reference monitor with 16 bits per RGBA channel enhanced premium OLED output to match the new MF GS cameras and PRO-LEVEL computers coming out. It is nearly HALF the price of the super high end ENKI displays with 16-bits per channel image processing and output. AMD is the partner on a NEW 64-bit RGBA/YCbCrA pixel PRO-LEVEL graphics card to be used on the new OLED displays with proper 64-bit RGBA/YCbCrA 240 Hz drivers!

Apple now has an 83 Inch DCI 16K (16,284 by 8640 pixels) 120 Hz quad-input super-large display at 10 Bit REC.2020 HDR image processing allows four separate DCI 8K 120 fps video inputs OR one 16,284 by 8640 pixel desktop resolution at 120 Hz refresh at 10-bit HDR REC.2020 display using TWO attached GPUs for the new pro-level 64-bit colour workstation-class computers coming out that will BLOW AWAY the HP Z-series pro-level workstations in terms of actual performance and having very reasonable price levels for what you get!

THERE AGAIN !! It's all blabbed out for the world to know!

APPLE IS COMING FOR YA CANON !!!

YOU BETTER UP YOUR GAME cuz this behemoth Apple has SERIOUS MONEY and technical talent behind it and it is coming A LOT SOONER THAN YOU COULD POSSIBLY IMAGINE !!!!

V
Welcome back Harry! It's always fun to hear what you're able to "come up with" next time. :ROFLMAO:
 

usern4cr

EOS RP
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
528
478
Kentucky, USA
If the R1 has a global shutter and no mechanical one, then it will start a new day for mirrorless cameras from the leaders, but what effect on IQ and dynamic range will there be? I wouldn't be surprised if the R1 has it with only a 20-ish MP sensor for ideal 4K video footage and professional stills use, but as a primarily (non-professional) landscape user, anything less than 45MP would be a step down for me. If they are able to have a 45MP global shutter then I would be very interested. But I still prefer a smaller camera without an embedded vertical grip, so I'd still be hoping that they have a version of it without the vertical grip (which they probably won't have for quite a while).

I could see them adding their neutral density filter option in front of the global shutter sensor to protect it when not in use as well as having the benefit of neutral density filters. I've always wished they could have an auto-rotatable CPOL filter they could optionally insert like their neutral density filter, but that's probably more of a wishful dream than something they ever do - If they ever did this then they'd probably need the extra room that a taller body with vertical grip affords, and that would be a good enough reason for me to eagerly accept the larger size body.

As far as the flip out screen on a vertically gripped R1, why can't they have a much larger flippy LCD on it, since there's extra room back there? Maybe they could replace buttons with good touch screen ones and so more (or all) of the back width could be part of the back screen. Or maybe use all of the back width for a wider aspect ratio flippy screen and move the buttons above & below the bigger screen, since there's so much more vertical room?
 
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Joules

EOS R
CR Pro
Jul 16, 2017
1,217
1,373
Hamburg, Germany
I still wonder what has prevented Canon from alternating horizontally and vertically oriented Dual Pixels?
Also, good timing to ask that question :ROFLMAO:

 

usern4cr

EOS RP
CR Pro
Sep 2, 2018
528
478
Kentucky, USA
They use half-masked pixels I suppose. If so, the left- and right-half masked pixels are intertwined?
I believe that most of the previous cameras have used a relatively small number of "phase detect pixels" embedded within their sensors. Those are special circuitry for horizontal detection, or vertical detection, or some are for both. That's why they always hyped how many "AF points" they had. Since those AF points required room (probably larger than a single pixel), those areas might (I've heard sometimes) have no (or less) normal pixel sensing at those points and so their software had to do extra interpolation to get RGB information from neighboring areas to fill the holes.

I assume (but am not sure) that Canon was the first to have dual-pixels in the entire sensor. But by making them all in one orientation only, they had a weakness in unusual (horizontal line/area only images) that older sensors with dual orientation AP points could better handle. Thus their desire to fix the problem with quad-pixels for the entire sensor that sense both directions and thus sense all orientations just fine.
 

Bahrd

Red herrings...
Jun 30, 2013
98
68
Sony sensors also detect only horizontal contrast.
Yes, but to do so, they need alternating left and right half-masked pixels. And we wonder why Canon do not follow this pattern with horizontal and vertical Dual Pixels.
 

Danglin52

Wildlife Shooter
Aug 8, 2018
267
236
Yellowstone or Yosemite? ;)
Yellowstone National Park. We were there 9/27-10/13. We were supposed to return home on 10/10, but extended to catch snow and a drop in temps the night of 10/10. Great decision, got significant drop in terms with light snow which had wildlife out moving around on 10/11, seeing pretty much everything including Great Gray, Griz + cub, and a black wolf at 70yds to end the day. R5 is great, no regrets moving from 1dx II. I do miss my 200-400 f4, but the 100-500 is a dream to carry. I don't like the way it works with an extender - 700mm is great but tremendous loss of versatility. I am keeping my 100-400 to put on a second body when I have the extender on the 100-500. If you don't have the R5, buy the grip and an 2 extra sets of batteries if you are on a trip with a lot of shooting. The EVF instant on / always available needs to be addressed in the R1 for a true 1dx II/III replacement.
 
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GoldWing

Canon EOS 1DXMKII
Oct 19, 2013
207
164
Los Angeles, CA
en.wikipedia.org
Uh, you know Canon asked pros about the resolution and they deemed 20MP is good enough for the 1DX3? I highly doubt many of them suddenly want more than double that. Something like 30MP, sure.

  1. I am a pro.
  2. Our agency shoots sports for NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, Olympic, Extreme Sports
  3. We were asked by Canon and have received releases well before the public with the MkI and MkII.
  4. With MKIII we "clearly" stated we wanted more resolution, the same media with a CFExpress preference, Cross-Points all across and a more accurate color system where we used Fuji and Hasselblad as examples, a bit more contrast and customization in our UI withing the OVF.
I know people at Canon in sales and the 1DXIII has been a loser. None of the other agencies adopted the MKIII, the way we did with the MKII. We knew it was stop-gap.


If you mean JPEG output, adjust your Picture Style and NR. If you mean RAW, I don't know what you're talking about.


In JEPG or RAW the MKIII is no longer relevant from a resolution perspective, compared to other Canon, Sony & Nikon offerings. This was the quickest "flagship" lifecycle I remember with over 40 years in the business. We shoot in RAW with smaller JPEGS so the editors can quickly go through the shots they want. The picked RAW shots are batched/exported to the specs of the assignment. Even with the greatest care, little or no filtering, lum, noise etc with a CPP, LR, PS or CO the files are what they are inherent to the sensor and internal filters. The camera should not have been tagged as a "flagship". This was a mistake and it will come back to bite Canon from a trust perspective.

2TB CFExpress cards are already a thing.

Yes but we're running a business. We have about 23 or 24 1DXMKII's in the field, in the trucks and 2 still not used aside from their initial test and C&C.
If Canon applies the 2 CFExpress we're seeking in a next gen "MKIV" that would be two for each camera and a 20% inventory for damage, theft, loss, malfunction.

At an average price of $900.00 per card that's about $30,000 in card costs. We used 2TB as an example because we have to standardize everyone's equipment and on multiple day shoots in remote locations this is practical for our workflow, client needs, extra room to place infield edits and absolutely a mirror copy in the other slot. From a business perspective, I'd like to get those costs down to $350 to $400.

If you mean AFMA, mirrorless cameras don't need that in the first place.

This conversation is great and I think productive, but none of us has yet to see and EVF that rivals our OVF for fast-moving action sports handheld or on a gimbal in bright sunlight. We've had SONY, CANON, FUJI sales reps vist all the time on the still and broadcast video business and I've not seen to date an EVF that is equal to an OVF. However, the EVF's are getting better and for less experienced photographers the WYSIWG is helpful.