Likeliness of on-chip A/D converters in the next 5D & 6D bodies?
- Thread starter pedro
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Didn't canon say on chip adc cost more? I guess it's a balance of cost vs revenue. If the 80d comes with it, then it will be pervasive. If it doesn't then alas there is a chance Canon will indeed be selective. The mk 4 should have it without question, but if the 80d doesn't have it then the 6d mk 2 will be the borderline case I think
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Stu_bert said:
This is Canon, so the on chip adc will not show up on the 80D. Cost does not have anything to do with it.
Do you think that the joystick on the back of the 7D costs much? It didn't show up on 70D when the 7D AF moved to 7D (neither some of the software options of the 7D AF, and that has zero cost since it is already written).
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Last September, the Canon Photography chief (Now Canon President) said the following. I would expect to see mostly on-chip for models that were not already being prepared for release. The on-chip A/D sensors were most likely the ones they currently use from Sony.
"DE: This is actually a very technical question. I’m not sure if it’s one that you would be free to answer or not, but with sensor technology some have pointed to the analog-to-digital conversion implementations being very critical for image quality and dynamic range. Can you tell us whether Canon currently uses on-chip or off-chip A/D converters?
MM: Right now, we use both on-chip and off-chip, but recently I made the decision going forward to concentrate on the on-chip.
DE: Mm-hmm. Yes.
MM: The intent is to increase the performance. In terms of cost, this may be a little negative, but in terms of the direction to take, this will make us more competitive.
DE: So the net cost, the combined cost of the sensor and separate A/D is less than a sensor with A/D on it. Ah, I didn’t realize that!"
"DE: This is actually a very technical question. I’m not sure if it’s one that you would be free to answer or not, but with sensor technology some have pointed to the analog-to-digital conversion implementations being very critical for image quality and dynamic range. Can you tell us whether Canon currently uses on-chip or off-chip A/D converters?
MM: Right now, we use both on-chip and off-chip, but recently I made the decision going forward to concentrate on the on-chip.
DE: Mm-hmm. Yes.
MM: The intent is to increase the performance. In terms of cost, this may be a little negative, but in terms of the direction to take, this will make us more competitive.
DE: So the net cost, the combined cost of the sensor and separate A/D is less than a sensor with A/D on it. Ah, I didn’t realize that!"
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I have read of both of those features as well. However, I don't recall the source(s) as being particularly reliable. Can you point me in the right direction for reliable confirmation?
The best I could find was an interview by Ari Hazeghi with Chuck Westfall:
"AH: In addition to the very modest increase in resolution from 18 to 20 Mega-pixels, what improvements have Canon made to the CMOS image sensor that would translate to a higher image quality when shooting in RAW (CR2) format?
CW: In addition to the first implementation of Dual Pixel CMOS AF in a full frame image sensor, the EOS-1D X Mark II showcases the latest Canon image sensor technologies such as new photodiode construction, new color filters, and greater photo-electric conversion efficiency. In plain English, the new image sensor delivers higher image quality at all ISO speeds for both RAW image data and JPEG files."
It's not clear to me how that greater efficiency is achieved.
The best I could find was an interview by Ari Hazeghi with Chuck Westfall:
"AH: In addition to the very modest increase in resolution from 18 to 20 Mega-pixels, what improvements have Canon made to the CMOS image sensor that would translate to a higher image quality when shooting in RAW (CR2) format?
CW: In addition to the first implementation of Dual Pixel CMOS AF in a full frame image sensor, the EOS-1D X Mark II showcases the latest Canon image sensor technologies such as new photodiode construction, new color filters, and greater photo-electric conversion efficiency. In plain English, the new image sensor delivers higher image quality at all ISO speeds for both RAW image data and JPEG files."
It's not clear to me how that greater efficiency is achieved.
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I haven't seen any official announcement that the 1DXII sensor uses on-chip ADC, but maybe I missed it. It seems to me that because it wasn't touted in the official release, ADC is not on-chip.
Given Canon's acknowledgement that they were going to specifically address the aspects of resolution and sensitivity in separate bodies (e.g. 5DS for resolution and another body for sensitivity), it would be a shock to me if the 5DIII successor did no use on-chip ADC. I suspect that body was the source of the 15-stop dynamic range rumors.
For the 6DII, it could go either way. The 6D came out with a slightly better sensor than the 5DIII. Instead of a limited sensor, lower-market product positioning for the 6D was accomplished through limited feature set (e.g. non-metal construction, basic AF system, etc).
Remember also that the 70D was the vehicle for introducing Dual Pixel AF, now seen in the 7DII and 1DXII. That technology was excluded in subsequent Rebel and EOS M bodies, "trickling" up instead. It's possible sensor advancements will appear in the 80D and later show up in the 5DIII successor and/or 6DII.
I'm still not convinced that Canon will be able to do both high-sensitivity and DPAF in the same sensor. My hunch is that it's a trade-off. It would not surprise me if the 5DIII successor has a high-sensitivity on-chip ADC sensor without Dual Pixel AF.
My own preference? I just want a full-frame equivalent of the 70D with ISO performance on par with or slightly better than the 6D. If they can do that with the added benefits of on-chip ADC, all the better.
Given Canon's acknowledgement that they were going to specifically address the aspects of resolution and sensitivity in separate bodies (e.g. 5DS for resolution and another body for sensitivity), it would be a shock to me if the 5DIII successor did no use on-chip ADC. I suspect that body was the source of the 15-stop dynamic range rumors.
For the 6DII, it could go either way. The 6D came out with a slightly better sensor than the 5DIII. Instead of a limited sensor, lower-market product positioning for the 6D was accomplished through limited feature set (e.g. non-metal construction, basic AF system, etc).
Remember also that the 70D was the vehicle for introducing Dual Pixel AF, now seen in the 7DII and 1DXII. That technology was excluded in subsequent Rebel and EOS M bodies, "trickling" up instead. It's possible sensor advancements will appear in the 80D and later show up in the 5DIII successor and/or 6DII.
I'm still not convinced that Canon will be able to do both high-sensitivity and DPAF in the same sensor. My hunch is that it's a trade-off. It would not surprise me if the 5DIII successor has a high-sensitivity on-chip ADC sensor without Dual Pixel AF.
My own preference? I just want a full-frame equivalent of the 70D with ISO performance on par with or slightly better than the 6D. If they can do that with the added benefits of on-chip ADC, all the better.
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Then again, there's the C300 Mark II, touting 15 stops of dynamic range AND Dual Pixel AF. Maybe both will be seen in the 5DIII successor after all! Put in the articulating touch screen, and I would probably opt to save up for it over picking up a 5DIII at a discount upon release.
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3kramd5 said:
a) they didn't build a new fab .. they would have announced that, and it would have been in their reports.
b) they had a 180nm sensor line already with copper BEOL.
c) the equipment used by modern full frame sensors is 20+ years old, the cost is negligible.
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brad-man said:
there was at least one other quoted in the 1DX II announced thread, but here's the one from a UK photo magazine (ADC on sensor)
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/reviews/dslrs/canon-eos-1d-x-mark-ii-review
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brad-man said:
The interview was with Canon Photography Chief Masaya Maeda last Fall. I'm not sure why you think he is not reliable. He was recently promoted to Canon President. It was widely posted and commented on.
Scroll down to the paragraph just below the new printer photo.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/09/16/canon-maeda-promises-eos-m-enthusiasts-more-aps-c-lenses-new-printers
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Mt Spokane Photography said:
Thanks Mt Spokane, that key bit is of course the "concentrating on". Doesnt mean the true entry level will get it immediate, but based on that I would be more doubtful that the 6D does not get the same....
It will be interesting once the reviews of production cameras are in, but if the *reason* that Canon didnt introduce the ADC was only sensor cost then I think they have misjudged their userbase a little. I suspect Maeda-san is playing it (cost) down a lot (and there's more to it)....
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