Likeliness of on-chip A/D converters in the next 5D & 6D bodies?

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Canon faces competition from sensor IQ output across its entire range of products.

The only way to respond to that is by moving the ADC onto the sensor and doing other things to improve IQ.

It isn't enough to just use improvements like this on the flagship model when Canon's competitors are using improvements across their entire range of products.

MM is smart enough to understand that.

I agree, he is planning to use the technology on new models. He also likely ordered the rumored testing of Sony sensors telling his staff to use them if they could not put the technology into Canon sensors. That usually causes the stogy types to move (a little).

I have little doubt that there is a engineering issue, its the foot dragging in management. Canon emphasizes cost control as a way of life. Everything about a product is optimized for cost effectiveness. Not one penny goes into the cost of a product without a management review. This results in Canon's ability to make a profit when others are losing money. However, they must eventually bite the bullet and put tech into cameras even if it costs $0.25 more.

 

[pedro]

Canon faces competition from sensor IQ output across its entire range of products.

The only way to respond to that is by moving the ADC onto the sensor and doing other things to improve IQ.

It isn't enough to just use improvements like this on the flagship model when Canon's competitors are using improvements across their entire range of products.

MM is smart enough to understand that.

I agree, he is planning to use the technology on new models. He also likely ordered the rumored testing of Sony sensors telling his staff to use them if they could not put the technology into Canon sensors. That usually causes the stogy types to move (a little).

I have little doubt that there is a engineering issue, its the foot dragging in management. Canon emphasizes cost control as a way of life. Everything about a product is optimized for cost effectiveness. Not one penny goes into the cost of a product without a management review. This results in Canon's ability to make a profit when others are losing money. However, they must eventually bite the bullet and put tech into cameras even if it costs $0.25 more.

;D

 

[K-amps]

....... However, they must eventually bite the bullet and put tech into cameras even if it costs $0.25 more.

Someone please tell Canon, I am willing to leverage that cost by a factor of 1000.

I will gladly pay an extra $250 if the next 5d/6d etc gets us Landscape guys, lower noise at base iso.

 

[brad-man]

I have read of both of those features as well. However, I don't recall the source(s) as being particularly reliable. Can you point me in the right direction for reliable confirmation?
The best I could find was an interview by Ari Hazeghi with Chuck Westfall:

The interview was with Canon Photography Chief Masaya Maeda last Fall. I'm not sure why you think he is not reliable. He was recently promoted to Canon President. It was widely posted and commented on.

Scroll down to the paragraph just below the new printer photo.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/09/16/canon-maeda-promises-eos-m-enthusiasts-more-aps-c-lenses-new-printers

I read that interview and while I don't distrust what he says, I am very skeptical of the timeframe. I understand he has committed to "a likable M" with more lenses and onboard ADC for new sensors, but when is that going to happen? Is the new 1DX the first? That interview was posted in the middle of September. In my world, "the very near future" has already past

 

[ritholtz]

Canon UK says:
"Next generation of professional image quality in the EOS line-up. With enhanced light collecting performance and the ability to convert this light into digital signal, this sensor delivers a high-sensitivity performance reducing noise in both high and low ISO speeds, along with high latitude to pull details in dark areas."

They never mentioned about pulling details from shadow before.

 

[Ozarker]

Didn't canon say on chip adc cost more? I guess it's a balance of cost vs revenue. If the 80d comes with it, then it will be pervasive. If it doesn't then alas there is a chance Canon will indeed be selective. The mk 4 should have it without question, but if the 80d doesn't have it then the 6d mk 2 will be the borderline case I think

This is Canon, so the on chip adc will not show up on the 80D. Cost does not have anything to do with it.
Do you think that the joystick on the back of the 7D costs much? It didn't show up on 70D when the 7D AF moved to 7D (neither some of the software options of the 7D AF, and that has zero cost since it is already written).

Don't need a joystick on the 70D. It has a touchscreen that works very well and is far easier and quicker to use than the joystick.

 

[rs]

Didn't canon say on chip adc cost more? I guess it's a balance of cost vs revenue. If the 80d comes with it, then it will be pervasive. If it doesn't then alas there is a chance Canon will indeed be selective. The mk 4 should have it without question, but if the 80d doesn't have it then the 6d mk 2 will be the borderline case I think

This is Canon, so the on chip adc will not show up on the 80D. Cost does not have anything to do with it.
Do you think that the joystick on the back of the 7D costs much? It didn't show up on 70D when the 7D AF moved to 7D (neither some of the software options of the 7D AF, and that has zero cost since it is already written).

Don't need a joystick on the 70D. It has a touchscreen that works very well and is far easier and quicker to use than the joystick.

Yes, arguably a touchscreen is better for some users in some scenarios. However, good luck selecting AF points when shooting with the OVF.

 

[zim]

Didn't canon say on chip adc cost more? I guess it's a balance of cost vs revenue. If the 80d comes with it, then it will be pervasive. If it doesn't then alas there is a chance Canon will indeed be selective. The mk 4 should have it without question, but if the 80d doesn't have it then the 6d mk 2 will be the borderline case I think

This is Canon, so the on chip adc will not show up on the 80D. Cost does not have anything to do with it.
Do you think that the joystick on the back of the 7D costs much? It didn't show up on 70D when the 7D AF moved to 7D (neither some of the software options of the 7D AF, and that has zero cost since it is already written).

Don't need a joystick on the 70D. It has a touchscreen that works very well and is far easier and quicker to use than the joystick.

Yes, arguably a touchscreen is better for some users in some scenarios. However, good luck selecting AF points when shooting with the OVF.

Was just about to post the same, I really like the idea of having a touch screen when using 'Q' but with my eye to the viewfinder I can't imagine anything better than the ergo of the 7D# 5D# maybe I have a poor imagination ;D

 

[kphoto99]

Didn't canon say on chip adc cost more? I guess it's a balance of cost vs revenue. If the 80d comes with it, then it will be pervasive. If it doesn't then alas there is a chance Canon will indeed be selective. The mk 4 should have it without question, but if the 80d doesn't have it then the 6d mk 2 will be the borderline case I think

This is Canon, so the on chip adc will not show up on the 80D. Cost does not have anything to do with it.
Do you think that the joystick on the back of the 7D costs much? It didn't show up on 70D when the 7D AF moved to 7D (neither some of the software options of the 7D AF, and that has zero cost since it is already written).

Don't need a joystick on the 70D. It has a touchscreen that works very well and is far easier and quicker to use than the joystick.

I guess you have the ability to use your nose to select AF points on the touchscreen.

 

[hmatthes]

"Don't need a joystick on the 70D. It has a touchscreen that works very well and is far easier and quicker to use than the joystick."

I would dearly love the joystick on my 70D because I am constantly rotating it to use portrait orientation with the battery grip... a joystick right where my thumb lives, regardless of orientation, is my dream.

Please Mr. Canon-san, put a joystick on the 5Div and Ill move back to FF!

 

[Ozarker]

Didn't canon say on chip adc cost more? I guess it's a balance of cost vs revenue. If the 80d comes with it, then it will be pervasive. If it doesn't then alas there is a chance Canon will indeed be selective. The mk 4 should have it without question, but if the 80d doesn't have it then the 6d mk 2 will be the borderline case I think

This is Canon, so the on chip adc will not show up on the 80D. Cost does not have anything to do with it.
Do you think that the joystick on the back of the 7D costs much? It didn't show up on 70D when the 7D AF moved to 7D (neither some of the software options of the 7D AF, and that has zero cost since it is already written).

Don't need a joystick on the 70D. It has a touchscreen that works very well and is far easier and quicker to use than the joystick.

Yes, arguably a touchscreen is better for some users in some scenarios. However, good luck selecting AF points when shooting with the OVF.

Obviously you have no idea how the touchscreen works.

The camera senses when the face gets close and turns the touch screen off instantly. Turns it back on instantly when you pull the face away. Touch capability is reactivated by pushing the "Q" button. Settings NEVER get changed by the nose or face.

As far as selecting AF points... it works just like any other camera. The OVF is used for AF point selection if you want or the screen can be used to select the AF point.

You boys really ought to study a little before commenting about what you erroneously "think or believe or have been told" a camera does vs what it actually does.

Those are just plain ignorant comments. Not stupid, just ignorant.

Just where do you men get these wild eyed ideas about touch screens? Obviously not from personal experience. You just dream them up, I guess.

The good news is that ignorance can be fixed. Stupid is forever.

 

[Proscribo]

...
The camera senses when the face gets close and turns the touch screen off instantly. Turns it back on instantly when you pull the face away. Settings NEVER get changed by the nose or face.
...

AFAIK 70D doesn't even have a sensor to detect whether you're looking through VF or not. However it still doesn't change settings when poking around, which is exactly the problem! You see, the point was that you can't use the screen to change AF point while looking through the VF, and that with joystick it's a lot easier than with wheels or D-pad.

 

[Ozarker]

...
The camera senses when the face gets close and turns the touch screen off instantly. Turns it back on instantly when you pull the face away. Settings NEVER get changed by the nose or face.
...

AFAIK 70D doesn't even have a sensor to detect whether you're looking through VF or not. However it still doesn't change settings when poking around, which is exactly the problem! You see, the point was that you can't use the screen to change AF point while looking through the VF, and that with joystick it's a lot easier than with wheels or D-pad.

Yes, the 70D has the sensor. I own one, do you? To reactivate the screen you press the "Q" button. (Wow, the screen becomes active again just like the 5D III!)

On your other point: HUH? Why or how would anyone want to change the AF point via the screen while looking through the viewfinder? You aren't making sense. That is impossible.

When looking through the viewfinder one can see the points and can change them that way... using wheels or D-pad.

I have no idea why one would think a joystick would be easier. I cycle through the points much quicker with the wheels than with the joystick. I do it the same way on my 5D III even though it has a joystick. The joystick is a slow choice for cycling through AF points. The wheels are much faster. Maybe change is really difficult for some and making stuff up is their coping mechanism.

Not having the joystick doesn't cripple the 70D at all. Everyone likes what they like. Gotta have a slow joystick? Don't get a 70D.

However, making stuff up out of thin air is just... goofy. (Nose changes settings, have to use the screen to change AF points, wheels are difficult, joystick is faster, camera doesn't sense when the face is close and eye is looking through the viewfinder etc...)

You boys must be trolling, right?

 

[kphoto99]

Didn't canon say on chip adc cost more? I guess it's a balance of cost vs revenue. If the 80d comes with it, then it will be pervasive. If it doesn't then alas there is a chance Canon will indeed be selective. The mk 4 should have it without question, but if the 80d doesn't have it then the 6d mk 2 will be the borderline case I think

This is Canon, so the on chip adc will not show up on the 80D. Cost does not have anything to do with it.
Do you think that the joystick on the back of the 7D costs much? It didn't show up on 70D when the 7D AF moved to 7D (neither some of the software options of the 7D AF, and that has zero cost since it is already written).

Don't need a joystick on the 70D. It has a touchscreen that works very well and is far easier and quicker to use than the joystick.

I guess you have the ability to use your nose to select AF points on the touchscreen.

Obviously you have no idea how the touchscreen works.

The camera senses when the face gets close and turns the touch screen off instantly. Turns it back on instantly when you pull the face away. Settings NEVER get changed by the nose or face.

As far as selecting AF points... it works just like any other camera. The OVF is used for AF point selection if you want or the screen can be used.

You boys really ought to study a little before commenting about what you erroneously "think or believe or have been told" a camera does vs what it actually does.

Those are just plain ignorant comments. Not stupid, just ignorant.

Just where do you men get these wild eyed ideas about touch screens? Obviously not from personal experience. You just dream them up, I guess.

The good news is that ignorance can be fixed. Stupid is forever.

Obviously you can't detect sarcasm. Not being able to detect sarcasm is an early indication of Alzheimer's, better get that check.

And as far as being familiar with touch screen on Canon, I have used the M, the T4i and the 70D.

As somebody already pointed out, the discussion is about the joystick and that the touch screen does not replace the joystick when using the OVF. Stop being such a fanboy.

 

[Ozarker]

Didn't canon say on chip adc cost more? I guess it's a balance of cost vs revenue. If the 80d comes with it, then it will be pervasive. If it doesn't then alas there is a chance Canon will indeed be selective. The mk 4 should have it without question, but if the 80d doesn't have it then the 6d mk 2 will be the borderline case I think

This is Canon, so the on chip adc will not show up on the 80D. Cost does not have anything to do with it.
Do you think that the joystick on the back of the 7D costs much? It didn't show up on 70D when the 7D AF moved to 7D (neither some of the software options of the 7D AF, and that has zero cost since it is already written).

Don't need a joystick on the 70D. It has a touchscreen that works very well and is far easier and quicker to use than the joystick.

I guess you have the ability to use your nose to select AF points on the touchscreen.

Obviously you have no idea how the touchscreen works.

The camera senses when the face gets close and turns the touch screen off instantly. Turns it back on instantly when you pull the face away. Settings NEVER get changed by the nose or face.

As far as selecting AF points... it works just like any other camera. The OVF is used for AF point selection if you want or the screen can be used.

You boys really ought to study a little before commenting about what you erroneously "think or believe or have been told" a camera does vs what it actually does.

Those are just plain ignorant comments. Not stupid, just ignorant.

Just where do you men get these wild eyed ideas about touch screens? Obviously not from personal experience. You just dream them up, I guess.

The good news is that ignorance can be fixed. Stupid is forever.

Obviously you can't detect sarcasm. Not being able to detect sarcasm is an early indication of Alzheimer's, better get that check.

And as far as being familiar with touch screen on Canon, I have used the M, the T4i and the 70D.

As somebody already pointed out, the discussion is about the joystick and that the touch screen does not replace the joystick when using the OVF. Stop being such a fanboy.

NO!

 

[Stu_bert]

I have read of both of those features as well. However, I don't recall the source(s) as being particularly reliable. Can you point me in the right direction for reliable confirmation?
The best I could find was an interview by Ari Hazeghi with Chuck Westfall:

The interview was with Canon Photography Chief Masaya Maeda last Fall. I'm not sure why you think he is not reliable. He was recently promoted to Canon President. It was widely posted and commented on.

Scroll down to the paragraph just below the new printer photo.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2015/09/16/canon-maeda-promises-eos-m-enthusiasts-more-aps-c-lenses-new-printers

I read that interview and while I don't distrust what he says, I am very skeptical of the timeframe. I understand he has committed to "a likable M" with more lenses and onboard ADC for new sensors, but when is that going to happen? Is the new 1DX the first? That interview was posted in the middle of September. In my world, "the very near future" has already past

Not sure if this is the case, but the various YouTube videos which mentioned on sensor ADC have been withdrawn. Chuck Westfall, Canon USA has, according to Dpreview, gone back to product engineering in Japan as he was not briefed about the ADC (got all this from FM forums)...

 

[rrcphoto]

as an fyi.. there's some pictures out there of the various sensors, and it's certainly not the same old same old..

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=28984.msg576917#msg576917

 

[nvsravank]

Ok I think you finally got the point but I have to disagree with you on the use of the joystick vs wheel.
When you nine points or so cycling through the points was a no brainer. But with the 60+ focus points, it takes forever. And moving vertically or side to side is not as simple. With the joy stick it becomes much easier while shooting OVF style. You can control it more intuitively. And since it has directional ability you can even go diagonal. Getting it right using a wheel is nearly impossible I would think. If it is a clickty wheel like the back dial you can do it, but even then it wouldn't be as easy as the joystick.

...
The camera senses when the face gets close and turns the touch screen off instantly. Turns it back on instantly when you pull the face away. Settings NEVER get changed by the nose or face.
...

AFAIK 70D doesn't even have a sensor to detect whether you're looking through VF or not. However it still doesn't change settings when poking around, which is exactly the problem! You see, the point was that you can't use the screen to change AF point while looking through the VF, and that with joystick it's a lot easier than with wheels or D-pad.

Yes, the 70D has the sensor. I own one, do you? To reactivate the screen you press the "Q" button. (Wow, the screen becomes active again just like the 5D III!)

On your other point: HUH? Why or how would anyone want to change the AF point via the screen while looking through the viewfinder? You aren't making sense. That is impossible.

When looking through the viewfinder one can see the points and can change them that way... using wheels or D-pad.

I have no idea why one would think a joystick would be easier. I cycle through the points much quicker with the wheels than with the joystick. I do it the same way on my 5D III even though it has a joystick. The joystick is a slow choice for cycling through AF points. The wheels are much faster. Maybe change is really difficult for some and making stuff up is their coping mechanism.

Not having the joystick doesn't cripple the 70D at all. Everyone likes what they like. Gotta have a slow joystick? Don't get a 70D.

However, making stuff up out of thin air is just... goofy. (Nose changes settings, have to use the screen to change AF points, wheels are difficult, joystick is faster, camera doesn't sense when the face is close and eye is looking through the viewfinder etc...)

You boys must be trolling, right?