New Battery Grip for EOS 5D Mark IV & More [CR2]

[pierlux]

i believe there maybe a technical reason for a grip change besides the difference in body. Might have something to do with getting a higher fps using the grip.

More from your 'sources'? :

nope...just from a technical standpoint.

That makes no sense from a technical standpoint. Batteries in a grip are used alternately, not simultaneously. There's no additional instantaneous power, just more shooting time. Nothing to drive a higher frame rate. In the case of Nikon, there's a settings 'hack' that enables the higher frame rate without the grip.

If you'd suggested it was for marketing reasons, at least that would have sounded plausible.

Up to now this is not the case but it's possible by switching both batteries in series and use a (highly efficient, ~95%) step-down-converter to boost the voltage to sth. around 12 Volts.

It's been possible to do that before, they have not done so. Marketing, not technical. But I highly doubt it's going to happen.

Are you sure? Is there any official statement by Canon to support this claim? I have searched for it over the years, but found only posts on internet forums saying the batteries in the grip are used alternately. Should you or anybody else be able to provide a link to an official source I'd be sincerely grateful. I'm really, genuinely interested.

I have to tell a story. Back in 2003 I bought my first DSLR, the EOS 300D, the original Rebel. It was the "Black Limited Edition" which came in bundle with the battery grip BG-E1. In the box there was one battery, the BP-511 (1100 mAh). Afterwards I bought other batteries, one BP-511A (1390 mAh) and two BP-508 (800 mAh). I bought the latter ones because they were offered for less than 10 Euros each, a ridiculous price for an original Canon branded item. The downside was their limited capacity. Meanwhile, I also bought the EF 70-300 IS (non-L) and was a bit concerned since I wasn't sure I could use the camera ungripped with a single BP-508 because of the extra current drawn by IS and a more demanding AF with respect to the kit lens, so I began experimenting with both gripped and ungripped camera and all the possible combinations of batteries at different charge levels. It turned out that a couple of empty batteries, both incapable of letting the camera even turn on if used individually, allowed me to shoot a significant amount of photos with AF and IS on when inserted simultaneously in the BG. This fact is indicative of a connection in parallel of the two batteries which means they are used simultaneously, at least with the EOS 300D + BG-E1.

I never repeated the experiment with my 5D II since I took for granted the "in parallel" connection thing in the first place, and because I've learned something about the lithium chemistry batteries, i.e. that it's not recommended to deep-discharge them since the deeper the discharge, the shorter they live, so I'm not willing to run a risk. But now, after having heard so many times about the alternate use of batteries in the grip I'm beginning to doubt my certainty. Nevertheless, lacking official statements from Canon, this might simply be a mith that keeps bouncing from one internet forum to another, derived from the observation that the shutter count for each battery is an integer. Actually, indicating half actuations in the camera menu would be ridiculous. If reliable literature exists to confirm this alternate use of batteries, then I sincerely apologize for this long, useless post. Still, my gripped EOS 300D uses them in parallel, no doubt.

In the case someone proves me wrong, I wonder why Canon would implement such a thing. Just think of this: having double the current available is the most desirable thing; why waste money for dedicated circuitry and logic to allow the alternate use of batteries in the grip? What would the benefit be? I really don't get it. Maybe it's only because of the necessity to have separate statistics (serial number, shutter actuations, recharge performance) for each battery, thus reading the battery chip must be performed before putting in parallel the battery output. But, after the reading, why not connect them in parallel and avoid the circuitry to alternately switch them on and off? Any thoughts from the tech guys here? Any link?

 

[Sharlin]

Hate to burst your bubble, but my 7D Mark II uses both bateries simultaneously. Original grip, original bateries.

It's not like 1 battery drains to 0% and then the second one kicks in. Both lose power about equally.

Switching between the batteries often enough makes them drain "simultaneously" as far as the user is concerned, but it's very different from using them in parallel or in series, in the electrical sense.

 

[pierlux]

i believe there maybe a technical reason for a grip change besides the difference in body. Might have something to do with getting a higher fps using the grip.

More from your 'sources'? :

nope...just from a technical standpoint.

That makes no sense from a technical standpoint. Batteries in a grip are used alternately, not simultaneously. There's no additional instantaneous power, just more shooting time. Nothing to drive a higher frame rate. In the case of Nikon, there's a settings 'hack' that enables the higher frame rate without the grip.

If you'd suggested it was for marketing reasons, at least that would have sounded plausible.

I suspect this might be at least partly responsible for the exploding batteries issue which occurred to some Nikon shooters in the past. Understandably none of them mentioned the hack for warranty reasons. Just speculating here, but... you know, if you think badly of someone it's sin, but you're very often right. In any case, I'm glad to be a Canon user! 8)

 

[East Wind Photography]

i believe there maybe a technical reason for a grip change besides the difference in body. Might have something to do with getting a higher fps using the grip.

More from your 'sources'? :

nope...just from a technical standpoint.

That makes no sense from a technical standpoint. Batteries in a grip are used alternately, not simultaneously. There's no additional instantaneous power, just more shooting time. Nothing to drive a higher frame rate. In the case of Nikon, there's a settings 'hack' that enables the higher frame rate without the grip.

If you'd suggested it was for marketing reasons, at least that would have sounded plausible.

Up to now this is not the case but it's possible by switching both batteries in series and use a (highly efficient, ~95%) step-down-converter to boost the voltage to sth. around 12 Volts.

Nikon cameras normally have different fps ratings depending on if they have a grip or not.

The only Canon camera I have owned that had different fps ratings was the 1V, if you used the grip with AA batteries it was slower than if you used it with the NiCad battery (the only way to get 10 fps), but that was a voltage thing.

PBD, On the flip side the 5DIII suffers from reduced fps speed when the grip charge drops below 50%. So I guess we get the boost up front with Canon.

 

[East Wind Photography]

That makes no sense from a technical standpoint. Batteries in a grip are used alternately, not simultaneously.

Hate to burst your bubble, but my 7D Mark II uses both bateries simultaneously. Original grip, original bateries.

It's not like 1 battery drains to 0% and then the second one kicks in. Both lose power about equally.

I concur with most of that but the drain is not equal. I have some thoughts that the batteries are shared between camera functions. One used by the camera and the other used by the lens. I have no evidence of that other than the dissimilar drain rates.

That being said it might be possible that Canon is doing some trickery like switching batteries between sleep and wake up to drain them more evenly. But again it's only speculation. For certain though one doesnt go to zero before the 2nd battery kicks in.

 

[pierlux]

i believe there maybe a technical reason for a grip change besides the difference in body. Might have something to do with getting a higher fps using the grip.

More from your 'sources'? :

nope...just from a technical standpoint.

That makes no sense from a technical standpoint. Batteries in a grip are used alternately, not simultaneously. There's no additional instantaneous power, just more shooting time. Nothing to drive a higher frame rate. In the case of Nikon, there's a settings 'hack' that enables the higher frame rate without the grip.

If you'd suggested it was for marketing reasons, at least that would have sounded plausible.

Up to now this is not the case but it's possible by switching both batteries in series and use a (highly efficient, ~95%) step-down-converter to boost the voltage to sth. around 12 Volts.

Nikon cameras normally have different fps ratings depending on if they have a grip or not.

The only Canon camera I have owned that had different fps ratings was the 1V, if you used the grip with AA batteries it was slower than if you used it with the NiCad battery (the only way to get 10 fps), but that was a voltage thing.

PBD, On the flip side the 5DIII suffers from reduced fps speed when the grip charge drops below 50%. So I guess we get the boost up front with Canon.

This could be the way to probe if the batteries are used alternately or simultaneously without the need to drain them completely. Just use either a single one or both in the BG, and see how the camera behaves in terms of fps, i.e. see if two batteries speed up the fps compared to one when they're both 40% or below.

 

[Loswr]

That makes no sense from a technical standpoint. Batteries in a grip are used alternately, not simultaneously.

Hate to burst your bubble, but my 7D Mark II uses both bateries simultaneously. Original grip, original bateries.

It's not like 1 battery drains to 0% and then the second one kicks in. Both lose power about equally.

Nothing was burst. Alternately as in shot-to-shot, not one full battery then the other. Certainly, that's how the camera records the shutter counts in the battery info display. I would not expect two batteries used that way to show identical drain in terms of %, because that's relative to 'full' which will differ in absolute terms.

 

[pierlux]

... the 7DII drains the battery even when the camera is turned off, though the discharge rate is very low. My 5DII does not.

Maybe I've got the answer to my own observation. It may be because the 5D II has a replaceable date/time lithium battery to maintain the camera's settings, whereas the 7D II is equipped with an internal "rechargeable battery", most probably a condenser, which is charged by the main battery and can keep the settings for 3 months. It's not user-replaceable, if it fails the camera must be serviced by Canon. As for all rechargeable batteries and condensers, it continues to drain a little current even when fully charged.

If so, then nothing to be worried about.

 

[Loswr]

... the 7DII drains the battery even when the camera is turned off, though the discharge rate is very low. My 5DII does not.

Maybe I've got the answer to my own observation. It may be because the 5D II has a replaceable date/time lithium battery to maintain the camera's settings, whereas the 7D II is equipped with an internal "rechargeable battery", most probably a condenser, which is charged by the main battery and can keep the settings for 3 months. It's not user-replaceable, if it fails the camera must be serviced by Canon. As for all rechargeable batteries and condensers, it continues to drain a little current even when fully charged.

If so, then nothing to be worried about.

There is drain from the transmissive LCD (the 5DII doesn't have one). Look through the VF with and without the battery installed to see the difference.

 

[pierlux]

... the 7DII drains the battery even when the camera is turned off, though the discharge rate is very low. My 5DII does not.

Maybe I've got the answer to my own observation. It may be because the 5D II has a replaceable date/time lithium battery to maintain the camera's settings, whereas the 7D II is equipped with an internal "rechargeable battery", most probably a condenser, which is charged by the main battery and can keep the settings for 3 months. It's not user-replaceable, if it fails the camera must be serviced by Canon. As for all rechargeable batteries and condensers, it continues to drain a little current even when fully charged.

If so, then nothing to be worried about.

There is drain from the transmissive LCD (the 5DII doesn't have one). Look through the VF with and without the battery installed to see the difference.

Thanks a lot neuro, I never noticed. Probably never looked through the VF without the battery installed until now, though now that you told me I recall I read something about this around the time of the camera release. Thanks again!

 

[Maiaibing]

The main reason why I am still shooting weddings & events with my aging 5DMkII bodies... even though I own two 5D MkIII bodies..(for video only)... is because of that red AF point. That's basically it.

JP

It a given. 5DS/R has it.

 

[Loswr]

... the 7DII drains the battery even when the camera is turned off, though the discharge rate is very low. My 5DII does not.

Maybe I've got the answer to my own observation. It may be because the 5D II has a replaceable date/time lithium battery to maintain the camera's settings, whereas the 7D II is equipped with an internal "rechargeable battery", most probably a condenser, which is charged by the main battery and can keep the settings for 3 months. It's not user-replaceable, if it fails the camera must be serviced by Canon. As for all rechargeable batteries and condensers, it continues to drain a little current even when fully charged.

If so, then nothing to be worried about.

There is drain from the transmissive LCD (the 5DII doesn't have one). Look through the VF with and without the battery installed to see the difference.

Thanks a lot neuro, I never noticed. Probably never looked through the VF without the battery installed until now, though now that you told me I recall I read something about this around the time of the camera release. Thanks again!

You're welcome.

For anyone else trying this, I should clarify I mean battery in with camera power off vs. battery out.

 

[pierlux]

That makes no sense from a technical standpoint. Batteries in a grip are used alternately, not simultaneously.

Hate to burst your bubble, but my 7D Mark II uses both bateries simultaneously. Original grip, original bateries.

It's not like 1 battery drains to 0% and then the second one kicks in. Both lose power about equally.

I concur with most of that but the drain is not equal. ... ... I have no evidence of that other than the dissimilar drain rates.

The drain is not equal either when the batteries are significantly different in age, or when they have different charge levels right from the start. Check either their respective recharge performance, the number of green squares should be different, or the percentage of charge as soon as you put them in the BG.

On a side note, I noticed the number of green squares displayed depends on the age of the battery rather than the number of recharge cycles, thus it is a poor indicator of the actual battery performance. In addition, according to Canon, when 1 red square is displayed the battery "has reached the end of its useful life, and should be discarded and replaced with a new LP-E6 battery pack". I've got 3 of them, luckily all still performing well.

... I have some thoughts that the batteries are shared between camera functions. One used by the camera and the other used by the lens.

No, for sure.

... it might be possible that Canon is doing some trickery like switching batteries between sleep and wake up to drain them more evenly.

I had the same thought relatively to the shutter count indication and performed a test not long ago trying to understand why sometimes the shutter count differed by 10 or more digits between batteries. Camera on, shoot, off, repeat several times. Then camera on, shoot, sleep, wake up, shoot, sleep... several times. I had mixed results, the shutter count tended to equalize, but never did. I must clarify at that time I was absolutely convinced it was only a matter of shutter count indication logic, not actual battery usage, since I was sure the batteries were connected in parallel and used simultaneously, not so sure about this now. I'm so much curious about this that I could bother Chuck Westfall in person one of these days...

 

[hubie]

Hm, I guess they just bring the new grip in order to have everyone buy the new one instead of using the old one? :

 

[nvsravank]

You forgot Canon 1VHS in the film era. it was just the grip that gave the faster speed.

i believe there maybe a technical reason for a grip change besides the difference in body. Might have something to do with getting a higher fps using the grip.

I think you are confusing Canon with Nikon. Canon have never offered a higher fps with an optional accessory. With Canon, the FPS is set as part of the chip design and data architecture (throughput of the Digic processor). Canon decide what their specs will be according to market placement and then design the entire camera around those specs.

 

[infared]

Well, of course it's getting a new grip. The 5DIII got a new grip different from the 5DII, didn't it? BG-E6 to BG-E11, I believe...
I will say that on my 5D MarkII I bought an aftermarket plastic BG. The first one failed, but the seller replaced it. I just could not justfy the cost of the Canon grip....but on my 5DIII I went "all-in" recently for the Canon grip. All I can say is WOW! It's all metal, VERY well built....and certainly worth the cost difference!

 

[privatebydesign]

You forgot Canon 1VHS in the film era. it was just the grip that gave the faster speed.

i believe there maybe a technical reason for a grip change besides the difference in body. Might have something to do with getting a higher fps using the grip.

I think you are confusing Canon with Nikon. Canon have never offered a higher fps with an optional accessory. With Canon, the FPS is set as part of the chip design and data architecture (throughput of the Digic processor). Canon decide what their specs will be according to market placement and then design the entire camera around those specs.

The 1V has already been mentioned a couple of times, it is not the addition of the PB-E2 itself that gave you the 10 fps, it was the use of the higher capacity and output voltage NiCad battery that fit in the grip that enabled it.

If you used it with AA batteries you didn't get 10 fps, if you used it with the NP-E2 NiCad battery you did. You could tape the slot on the AA battery magazine to make the camera think it had an NP-E2 in it but a new set of AA's lasted a couple of rolls of film if you did.

 

[mrsfotografie]

My 5DIII also drains batteries when turned off and indeed my 5DII doesn't. This is one area where the old defeats the new...

Get your 5D MK III repaired. They do not drain batteries when turned off. I've had two. Usually, I leave them on all the time, they can go for weeks with no significant drain.

yep that's on you...mine's fine as well. In fact I'm blown away how fresh they stay when it's warm out.

Battery drain may happen if you have Magic Lantern installed. Also the first production run of Tamron 24-70 f/2.8 IS used to drain batteries on the 6D (not sure if it happens on the 5D3)

Interesting, I had ML on it just to calibrate my lenses. When I last stored it for a longer period of time I found the battery was dead but I had my Samyang 14mm on it, which I've fitted with an AF confirmation chip. That AF chip may be the reason then, as I hadn't noticed the battery drain before as long as I turn my grip off (that also seems to use power when the camera is off)...

 

[cenkog]

Built-in Wi-Fi, GPS & a "Radio Flash Commander" please...

 

[Memdroid]

Built-in Wi-Fi, GPS & a "Radio Flash Commander" please...

Inside the grip? That would be the most useful grip ever build.