New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]

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So, do you think Canon will announce one Pro DSLR on 18 October AND another one on 3 Nov ?

I am with NormanBates - "only" 18 MP in 2011 means a lot more technology behind/among them than 21 MP in 2008. A new censor is on its way most probably. And I guess that from now on all Canons will have it in different sizes but this is just a guess. This definitely is a reason to delay announcements beyond the standard release dates.
Remember, when Ford was asked while setting up the Ford T production line whether he was guided by consumer demand he said - Ah, if I'd ask the consumers (users) what improved means of transport they need they'd say they just need faster horses...
Do we merely talk "faster horses" here ?
 
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canon does not have to announce 2 DSLR because they have two events.

18 october could be the announcement of the DSLR and on november 3 it could be about ron howards film project + the new camera.

a new video oriented camera would fit.

maybe ron howard used the new camera (8D?) for the imagin8tion movie?
what could be better to promote a new video DSLR camera?

just wild guesses sure... ;)
 
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NormanBates said:
do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?

VIDEO

it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning

and with a lower resolution it can also be faster, meaning less rolling shutter, and higher frame rates (60p not restricted to 720p)

so my bet is for a 3D, 6D or 8D with full frame, geared for video DSLR enthusiasts

(which one it is, and which price it comes out at, will probably depend on how fast it can shoot stills, and how the video is stored: if it is 1080p with a 4:2:2 codec, I expect 6D or 8D at $1500 to $2500 depending on quality of body; if it is sRAW video at 24fps, expect 3D at $4K or more)

This could be cool. If only they could increase that FPS to stupid levels so we can have some fun like a mini phantom flex haha.

But why would they invite canon pro photographers? Wouldn't they try and get Film makers, videographers etc instead?

Most professional photographers do not also own Red Epics. Nor would most of them be in the market for them? Obviously the 50k+ price is a big stopping point, but more so... why would they need one? Combining the features into a PHOTOGRAPHIC camera yes, but what you described is a VIDEO machine...

correct me if i'm wrong but wouldn't it be presenting to the wrong audience?
 
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kirillica said:
I agree on a hint it could be Foveon-like sensor Canon has patented. Then it's 18*3 = 54Mp, which is quite a lot. if D800 is also Foveon-like, then I assume their 36Mp should be devided on 3, which makes just 12 true Mpix. In this case new Canon-flagship will spoil D800 presentation :)

I also think that if a new 1D Mark( ) get announced, it would be the with the new 3 layered sensor technology 18x3=54Mp. It was rumored before that we would see big improvement in dynamic range. Would this be it? We shall see.
 
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dr croubie said:
Gothmoth said:
and it would fit to the 3 november event in hollywood.


But why would they announce it on Octember 18th, then announce it on November 3rd again?
Unless November 3rd is release date, and they actually have it in-stores by then?
3-weeks is still nowhere near apple's announce-to-stores speed, but it'd beat canon's latest performance with the year-long waits...

Maybe we're getting TWO bodies! ;D

What, I can be an optimist . . . hey, while I'm wishing, maybe they'll price the new full-frame DSLR under $3k :)
 
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kirillica said:
I agree on a hint it could be Foveon-like sensor Canon has patented. Then it's 18*3 = 54Mp, which is quite a lot. if D800 is also Foveon-like, then I assume their 36Mp should be devided on 3, which makes just 12 true Mpix. In this case new Canon-flagship will spoil D800 presentation :)

Where on Earth do people keep getting this idea from? That an 18MPix Foveon-like sensor is equivalent to an (18*3) MPix "conventional" sensor?

I have seen this over and over on here recently, not just from the one poster, either.

AFAIK, 1 pixel on a conventional sensor consists of 1 each of {R, G, B} sub-pixels.

So in terms of quantity of data recorded, both are identical.

Unless I am really missing something?
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3_sensor

Comparison to Bayer filter sensors – operational differences

The operation of the Foveon X3 sensor is quite different from that of the Bayer filter image sensor more commonly used in digital cameras. In the Bayer sensor, each photosite in the array consists of a single light sensor (either CMOS or CCD) that, as a result of filtration, is exposed to only one of the three primary colors, red, green, or blue. Constructing a full color image from a Bayer sensor requires demosaicing, an interpolative process in which the output pixel associated with each photosite is assigned an RGB value based in part on the level of red, green, and blue reported by those photosites adjacent to it. The Foveon X3 sensor creates its RGB color output for each photosite by combining the outputs of each of the stacked photodiodes at each of its photosites. This operational difference results in several significant consequences.
.....
Spatial resolution

According to Sigma Corporation, "there has been some controversy in how to specify the number of pixels in Foveon sensors."[24] The argument has been over whether sellers should count the number of photosites, or the total number of photodiodes, as a megapixel count, and whether either of those should be compared with the number of photodiodes in a Bayer filter sensor or camera as a measure of resolution.

For example, the dimensions of the photosite array in the sensor in the Sigma SD10 camera are 2268 × 1512, and the camera produces a native file size of those dimensions (times three color layers). This amounts to approximately 3.4 million three-color pixels. However, it has been advertised as a 10.2 MP camera by taking account of the fact that each photosite contains stacked red, green, and blue color sensing photodiodes, or pixel sensors (2268 × 1512 × 3). By comparison, the dimensions of the photosite array in the 10.2 MP Bayer sensor in the Nikon D200 camera are 3872 × 2592, but there is only one photodiode, or one pixel sensor, at each site. The cameras have equal numbers of photodiodes, and produce similar RAW data file sizes, but the Bayer filter camera produces a larger native file size via demosaicing.

However, the actual resolution produced by the Bayer sensor is more complicated than the count of its photosites, or its native file size, might suggest. The reason has to do with both the demosaicing and the separate anti-aliasing filter commonly used to reduce the occurrence or severity of color moiré patterns that the mosaic characteristic of the Bayer sensor produces. The effect of this filter is to blur the image output of the sensor, thus producing a lower resolution than the photosite count would seem to imply. This filter is largely unnecessary with the Foveon X3 sensor and is not used. The earliest camera with a Foveon X3 sensor, the Sigma SD9, showed visible luminance moiré patterns, but not color moiré.[25] Subsequent X3-equipped cameras have less aliasing because they include microlenses, which provide an effective anti-aliasing filter by averaging the optical signal over an area commensurate with the sample density, which is not possible in any color channel of a Bayer-type sensor. Aliasing from the Foveon X3 sensor is "far less bothersome because it's monochrome" according to Norman Koren.[26] Therefore, in theory, it is possible for a Foveon X3 sensor with the same number of photodiodes as a Bayer sensor and no separate anti-aliasing filter to attain a higher spatial resolution than that Bayer sensor. Independent tests indicate that the "10.2 MP" array of the Foveon X3 sensor (in the Sigma SD10) has a resolution similar to a 5 MP[27] or 6 MP[28] Bayer sensor, and at low ISO speed even similar to a 7.2 MP[29] Bayer sensor.

With the introduction of the Sigma SD14, the 14 MP (4.7 MP red + 4.7 MP green + 4.7 MP blue) Foveon X3 sensor resolution is being compared favorably by reviewers to that of 10 MP Bayer sensors. For example, Mike Chaney of ddisoftware says, "the SD14 produces better photos than a typical 10 MP dSLR because it is able to carry sharp detail all the way to the 'falloff' point at 1700 LPI whereas contrast, color detail, and sharpness begin to degrade long before the 1700 LPI limit on a Bayer based 10 MP dSLR."[30] Another article judges the Foveon X3 sensor as roughly equivalent to a 9 MP Bayer sensor.[31] A visual comparison between a 14 MP Foveon sensor and a 12.3 MP Bayer sensor shows Foveon has crisper details.[32]

so the 3x pixel count is exaggerated for real world examples.
at least when it comes to foveon sensors.
don´t know yet what canon can achive... ;)
 
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te4o said:
So, do you think Canon will announce one Pro DSLR on 18 October AND another one on 3 Nov ?

no, I think they'll announce a DSLR on 18 oct and a video camera on 3 nov

they may share the same sensor, but the video camera will have lots of pro features (XLR inputs, manual audio levels and headphones jack, peaking+zebras+histogram/waveform while recording, maybe even interchangeable lens mount for PL lenses, but that means APS-C sensor so let's hope not), and a price tag to match
 
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Fleetie said:
AFAIK, 1 pixel on a conventional sensor consists of 1 each of {R, G, B} sub-pixels.

No: in a bayer sensor, each pixel (photosite) has just one color, whereas in a foveon sensor each pixel has all three colors

the 18mpix sensor in my canon DSLR has 9 million green photosites, 4.5 million red photosites, and 4.5 million blue photosites

that's why it looks so soft when debayered into an 18mpix RGB image
 
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OK, but it makes little sense from a product standpoint to create a DSLR just for video. No one wants that. DSLRs are form factored for still photos, hence the large expensive redrock aftermarket rigs you see everyone hauling around with a tiny dslr at the core fo them.

While I could see all of the features you mention re: video coming in the next round of cameras, I seriously don't expect Canon to release a video-centric dslr. EF mount camcorder? Sure.

In my mind, the only way your idea works is if Canon makes the stills camera majority of this machine incredibly compelling. At 18mpx full frame I am not compelled to purchase.

NormanBates said:
do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?

VIDEO

it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning

and with a lower resolution it can also be faster, meaning less rolling shutter, and higher frame rates (60p not restricted to 720p)

so my bet is for a 3D, 6D or 8D with full frame, geared for video DSLR enthusiasts

(which one it is, and which price it comes out at, will probably depend on how fast it can shoot stills, and how the video is stored: if it is 1080p with a 4:2:2 codec, I expect 6D or 8D at $1500 to $2500 depending on quality of body; if it is sRAW video at 24fps, expect 3D at $4K or more)
 
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Fleetie said:
AFAIK, 1 pixel on a conventional sensor consists of 1 each of {R, G, B} sub-pixels.
Unless I am really missing something?

You are missing something. 1 pixel on a conventional CMOS or CCD sensor is one photosite, with no subpixels. Each pixel is covered by one color of the Bayer mask (R G G B). The de-mosaicing that occurs in RAW processing then uses adjacent pixels to interpolate the color for each pixel, and assign that color to the pixel. For example, take one photosite covered by a blue mask - that pixel is sensitive to blue light, and the software/firmware uses the data from the surrounding photosites to determine the actual color for that pixel. The interpolation means that some color information is lost, but the full spatial resolution is available.

Note that a similar issue comes up for the rear LCDs, where resolution is measured in 'dots'. The specs for the 5DII and 7D list LCDs with "Pixels: Approx. 920,000 dots (VGA)" although on their 5DII specs page, Canon leaves out the word 'dots' which makes it even more misleading than leaving it in. Nowhere do they tell you that dots ≠ pixels, although it's implied by 'VGA'. In fact, they count each red, blue, and green subpixel as a 'dot' so they are calculating display resolution as VGA x 3, i.e. 640 x 480 x 3 = 921,600 dots.

Fleetie said:
Where on Earth do people keep getting this idea from? That an 18MPix Foveon-like sensor is equivalent to an (18*3) MPix "conventional" sensor?

So in terms of quantity of data recorded, both are identical.

For a Foveon-type, an 18 MP sensor is still equivalent to 18 MP in terms of spatial resolution, but unlike the conventional sensor, no color information is lost because each discrete spatial element 'sees' the full visible spectrum, with no interpolation required.

The confusion comes from the manufacturers - if they produce a 10 MP (spatial resolution) Foveon-type sensor, there are actually 30 million photosites, stacked in 10 million little columns of three. So even though it's really a 10 MP sensor, the marketing folks will obviously want to call it a 30 MP sensor, because we all know that more MP is better. ::)

As a side note, a Foveon-type sensor is just one way to achieve the effect, albeit a very practical way for a camera. In photomicroscopy, Zeiss has for many years produced a camera called the AxioCam, which uses a 1 MP CCD sensor plus 'tricks'. It can take 'standard' images at 1 MP with the Bayer mask and interpolate the colors. But one trick is to physically move the Bayer mask to make three separate exposures, so each pixel is exposed successively to R G B. Obvoiusly, not something that would work in a dSLR, but fixed specimens are amenable to sequential imaging like that (in fact, some current color microscope cameras are actually b/w cameras with a color filter wheel in front that rotates through R G B). Another trick ups the resolution - unlike current dSLRs, the CCD in the AxioCam has no microlenses, so each photosite only sees a small portion of the incoming light. So, Zeiss also moves the sensor around in sub-pixel increments to expose the photosensitive part of the pixel to different regions of the incoming light - a 2x2 array gives a 5 MP image, and a 3x3 array gives a 12 MP image. So, with those tricks a simple 1 MP sensor can generate a 12 MP image without any interpolated color! Of course, it takes 27 separate exposures to make that one image...
 
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Maybe there is something to the Foveon type sensor rumor..
If digic 5 can process information 6 times faster than digic 4 (as claimed).. then why else would you need dual digic 5?

if on a 1DIV dual digic 4 has to process 16Mpix*10fps = 160Mpix/s

maaybe.. a 1DV with dual digic 5 would have to process 18Mpix*16fps*3 layers = 864Mpix/s

160 * 6 times processing speed = 960Mpix/s
 
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NormanBates said:
do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?

VIDEO

it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning

and with a lower resolution it can also be faster, meaning less rolling shutter, and higher frame rates (60p not restricted to 720p)

so my bet is for a 3D, 6D or 8D with full frame, geared for video DSLR enthusiasts

(which one it is, and which price it comes out at, will probably depend on how fast it can shoot stills, and how the video is stored: if it is 1080p with a 4:2:2 codec, I expect 6D or 8D at $1500 to $2500 depending on quality of body; if it is sRAW video at 24fps, expect 3D at $4K or more)

This makes the most sense to me, meaning it's an ADDITION to the 1D line, not a replacement. I think we'll see another 1D as well for 2012 that the bread and butter sports shooter wants....these guys don't want to lug a 400mm if they don't have to, and if you move their system off the APS-H, they lose that 1.3 crop advantage (unless we get a crop mode built-in).

The speculated high frame rate for stills also hints at some new mechanism that probably was developed to improve the video shutter performance, with the by-product of higher still rates. Add the ISO performance for cleaner video images as well (fast shutter needs cleaner high ISO).

I think you're on to something here.
 
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Some of you might know but I read this a few weeks ago

Do you have thousands and thousands of dollars to spend, and also a love of super-high quality video? Then mark your calendar for November 3 when RED will be announcing details and shipping info for the new RED Scarlet video camera. RED has been making changes to the device in preparation for its debut, but CEO Jim Jannard is keeping things nice and vague for now.

This was from this post from Maximum PC http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/red_scarlet_be_officially_announced_november_3rd

This video camera is expected to sell for around $5000
and is a Still and motion camera

Lots of stuff happening around November 3rd
 
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sublime LightWorks said:
NormanBates said:
do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?

VIDEO

it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning

and with a lower resolution it can also be faster, meaning less rolling shutter, and higher frame rates (60p not restricted to 720p)

so my bet is for a 3D, 6D or 8D with full frame, geared for video DSLR enthusiasts

(which one it is, and which price it comes out at, will probably depend on how fast it can shoot stills, and how the video is stored: if it is 1080p with a 4:2:2 codec, I expect 6D or 8D at $1500 to $2500 depending on quality of body; if it is sRAW video at 24fps, expect 3D at $4K or more)

This makes the most sense to me, meaning it's an ADDITION to the 1D line, not a replacement. I think we'll see another 1D as well for 2012 that the bread and butter sports shooter wants....these guys don't want to lug a 400mm if they don't have to, and if you move their system off the APS-H, they lose that 1.3 crop advantage (unless we get a crop mode built-in).

The speculated high frame rate for stills also hints at some new mechanism that probably was developed to improve the video shutter performance, with the by-product of higher still rates. Add the ISO performance for cleaner video images as well (fast shutter needs cleaner high ISO).

I think you're on to something here.

Maybe the sports shooters' camera will be moved from APS-H to APS-C but kept at 16MP. I think you two are correct in that this camera will be an addition to the line, optimized for video and low light level shooting. I also expect its output to be 4:2:2, not Raw, and only 1920 X 1080. Raw output, especially 4k raw output, requires extremely fast storage and that level of sophistication will be reserved for camcorders that look like camcorders not DSLRs. Think competition for the Red Epic and Sony's F65.

But I also think that there will be a 1D-something, 27MP FF, introduced in the next few weeks. Whether it is a 1Ds4 or 1D5 will depend on how fast it is. If Digic 5 really can handle 480 million pixels/second, then 10FPS seems likely and 12-14FPS doesn't seem impossible.
 
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neuroanatomist said:
In photomicroscopy, Zeiss has for many years produced a camera called the AxioCam, which uses a 1 MP CCD sensor plus 'tricks'. It can take 'standard' images at 1 MP with the Bayer mask and interpolate the colors. But one trick is to physically move the Bayer mask to make three separate exposures, so each pixel is exposed successively to R G B. Obvoiusly, not something that would work in a dSLR, but fixed specimens are amenable to sequential imaging like that (in fact, some current color microscope cameras are actually b/w cameras with a color filter wheel in front that rotates through R G B). Another trick ups the resolution - unlike current dSLRs, the CCD in the AxioCam has no microlenses, so each photosite only sees a small portion of the incoming light. So, Zeiss also moves the sensor around in sub-pixel increments to expose the photosensitive part of the pixel to different regions of the incoming light - a 2x2 array gives a 5 MP image, and a 3x3 array gives a 12 MP image. So, with those tricks a simple 1 MP sensor can generate a 12 MP image without any interpolated color! Of course, it takes 27 separate exposures to make that one image...

Isn't that what Hasselblad are doing with their "200" MP H4D ?
 
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niccyboy said:
NormanBates said:
do you know what a 16-18 Mpix sensor is great for?

VIDEO

it's exactly what the RED EPIC has: 5K resolution, which leads to very nice 4K video after debayering; on Canon hands, I'd expect it to lead to very nice 1080p with easy 4-to-1 pixel binning

and with a lower resolution it can also be faster, meaning less rolling shutter, and higher frame rates (60p not restricted to 720p)

so my bet is for a 3D, 6D or 8D with full frame, geared for video DSLR enthusiasts

(which one it is, and which price it comes out at, will probably depend on how fast it can shoot stills, and how the video is stored: if it is 1080p with a 4:2:2 codec, I expect 6D or 8D at $1500 to $2500 depending on quality of body; if it is sRAW video at 24fps, expect 3D at $4K or more)

This could be cool. If only they could increase that FPS to stupid levels so we can have some fun like a mini phantom flex haha.

But why would they invite canon pro photographers? Wouldn't they try and get Film makers, videographers etc instead?

Most professional photographers do not also own Red Epics. Nor would most of them be in the market for them? Obviously the 50k+ price is a big stopping point, but more so... why would they need one? Combining the features into a PHOTOGRAPHIC camera yes, but what you described is a VIDEO machine...

correct me if i'm wrong but wouldn't it be presenting to the wrong audience?

Pretty much this. When it comes down to it Canon is trying to please the photographers and not the filmmakers. They were caught off guard with how popular the Mark II became to video people. While Canon will continue from now on to add video to their DSLRs they're going to start to make money off of this by creating their new separate line of video camera products (hence the November 3rd event).

Trust me I want a video DSLR as bad as the next person next to me (its why I have my Mark II). But if Canon were to hold an event for this, they would use the 7D and 5DII replacement as their flagship camera. I don't think they'll go RAW on these DSLRs (hence why they're coming out with the new video cameras to go against RED). At most these DSLRs will hopefully go up to 4:2:2. I mean at the moment 4:2:0 is great when coupled with the right software. 4:2:2 would just give it more pop and would make correction less of a pain.
 
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bvukich said:
I always wondered why they didn't have a drive mode where the mirror stays up for double or triple frames. Assuming sensor readout the shutter and write to buffer/flash could keep up, you could get 20 or 30 fps, and still get 10 FPS flashing in the viewfinder; which should be enough to track a subject under most circumstances.

+1
 
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