New DSLR on Tuesday, October 18, 2011. [CR3]

[K-amps]

On multiple shots per mirror flip, sometimes I have wondered if it would be nice to have focus bracketing if you make the assumption the tracking focus will not be 100% anyway. Perhaps user settable equivalent to a few units of micro-focus adjust either side of nominal, could be done as the tracking is done to minimise the focus travel distance.

+1

Thats something I would love to have, Focus and exposure bracketing in at least 5 steps (if not 7)... Both are software driven functions and should not be a huge deal to implement.

 

[Justin]

You are correct about the rumor categories. But We all read it. We're reacting to the notion that CR guy posted his best spec list that seems hard to believe given the current state of canon's dev. trajectory and product lineup.

CR guy is describing a lord of darkness married with the perrenial rumored favorite canon 3D video-related rumors. First time many of us have been presented with this kind of rumor, at least in awhile.

In any case at least there is a CR3 rumor even if it is just a marker for a new dslr. Been so sad in canon rumor land for sooooo long.

I feel like I'm the only one who actually read Canon Rumors Guy's post. He gave a CR3 rating to the announcement of a DSLR of some sort and no rating to the spec list.

People are treating the spec list as though it has some validity. Maybe it does, but that was not what the original post indicated.

 

[Fred_]

We all read it. We're reacting to the notion that CR guy posted his best spec list that seems hard to believe given the current state of canon's dev. trajectory and product lineup.

My thoughts exactly, they would not give up the ultra high MP lineup queen,
it's a prestige thing if not for anything else, they need it for branding reasons. A new 1D is going to come eventually, but I think people are being very happy with the mk.4 up to this point. I'm not sure there's that much need to act, especially because the people who use these things have accountants too... they don't change cameras every couple of month. Not unless the new model means a load of cash beyond what they're making right now.

 

[htjunkie]

I know what's gonna happen, and why no one can get the specs. They are gonna make an Earth-shattering announcement: a pro body DSLR that shoots/records at about 12 MP at 30 FPS (4K video). It will shoot video in a stupidly high resolution at 30FPS, and every single frame will be big enough for a 13x19" print. 8)

</dream_mode>

 

[victorengel]

Suddenly I no longer have any faith in CR3 ratings.

 

[ippikiokami]

I feel like I'm the only one who actually read Canon Rumors Guy's post.

What camera? No [CR] rating on this yet.
Everything is pointing to a new 1D series camera, I am getting zero information from sources or from anywhere else on the web about any other camera.

so at least all seems to point to a 1D camera.
that for the guys who ask why we all discuss a new 1D model.

personally i think it will be an FF model that fits between the 7D and 5D.
but maybe thats only because i would like to see it.

as to the spec list... i don´t think it´s written in stone.

If these are directed at me.. I read the post fully, along with all the other post here almost daily since the blog was started.

Again the thing is. If there is any validity to the spec list. I would love any information at all. If it's just a amalgam of every wish list that he's gotten. Then that would be great information also. Not just. Hey These are the best possible specs (because ???).

Also ... everything pointing to 1d? So why is it different now than just a few weeks / months ago to everything pointing to no dslr? Are you getting insider information? Or is it like us that just google the heck out of internet for any possible info? Either explanation is fine. But if you do have any "exclusive" info that might point to one thing or another it would be great to just say hey. I heard it from a guy that was right in the past.

It's not like I'm even asking for things that the CR guy hasn't done in the past already. It just seems this particular post is just thrown up there.

 

[ecka]

1] No new DSLR announcements in November-December. October is their last chance in 2011.
2] I'm pretty sure it would be a 1D5, not 1Ds4. All Canon 1D/1Ds Marks and their Digic processors had the same number. Digic5 is already here, so it must be 1D5 then
3] Both new 1D and 5D will have the same sensor. No 6D, no 3D, no 2D, no 8D, no 4D, no any other "entry level" FF DSLR, a used 5D or 5D2 is your entry level. 5D2 should not be discontinued once 5D3 is released, big price drop expected ($2000?). I don't think that Canon could drop the APS-H just to make another, parallel FF line. It's more about sharing the same sensor and adding more features while keeping the sane price.
4] If there will be a new Canon Medium Format camera, it won't have 1Ds name on it. Different mount = different system.
5] New APS-C sensor next year for all new crop bodies - 7D2, 70D and 650D.
6] FF Foveon? Yes, please. Better details, better color, why not? But I really don't expect to see it in Canon body any time soon.
7] I could be wrong

 

[NormanBates]

what I have in mind for a video-centric 16-18Mpix sensor is:

* it makes sense to build it for the nov3 camcorder, then put it also on a video-centric, cheaper, DSLR (shared R&D costs, not too many videocamera canibalization because of the lack of bells and whistles that the pro video guys need)

* you can do two very sensible things with such a sensor, depending on how good it is (and how expensive it is to make it):

- put it in a cheaper version of the 5D2 body (same size, same AF, same everything, but no magnesium and/or no weather sealing; also, swivel screen), call it 6D or 8D, and sell it as an entry-level full frame camera for <$2K; the video-centric sensor delivers 1080p60 4:2:2 without aliasing/moire, which is absolutely awesome, but there is no manual audio, XLR inputs, zebras, waveform, peaking, etc., so you can still sell the camcorder for 4x the price; resolution is lower, AF is old, body is weaker, so you can still sell the 5D2 for $200 more, and eventual 5D3 for $3K

- put it in a close-to-pro-but-not-quite body, with the 7D AF or better, and make it able to shoot short bursts of, say, 50 stills in a second, stored in full raw, with full electronic shutter (so it is rolling shutter, but a fast sensor designed for video could make this a very minor problem; the bigger problem, as discussed here, would be: no AF between shots unless -quite unlikely- pellicle mirror); call it 3D or 2D, and sell it for $5K, still under the videocamera price, which shoots the same video but has all the bells and whistles; it caters to a very specific niche so you also keep on selling the eventual 1D+1Ds reflesh blend (high speed, high MPix, low light, colossal price)

edit: also, for people thinking RAW video, or even 50 full raw still in a second, is too much bandwith direced to your poor CF card... yes, it is, but if you put a thunderbold port in the camera (as Canon is rumoured to be doing relatively soon) you can write directly to an external SSD drive, which brings all this closer to attainable

but what do you mean by easy 4-to-1 pixel binning?

I mean: read the full 5K sensor, then average every 4 neighbouring same-color photosites (R=r+r+r+r, etc) to create a 2.5K bayer pattern; store that (which would be awesome) or, in a second step, debayer this to get a sharp 1080p image without aliasing/moire, with lower computational power required (uninformed guess; ur may require digic V to have a dedicated pipeline for averaging in the first step, but I don't think you need a lot of transistors for that)

 

[Justin]

Amen on the Thunderbolt!

edit: also, for people thinking RAW video, or even 50 full raw still in a second, is too much bandwith direced to your poor CF card... yes, it is, but if you put a thunderbold port in the camera (as Canon is rumoured to be doing relatively soon) you can write directly to an external SSD drive, which brings all this closer to attainable

but what do you mean by easy 4-to-1 pixel binning?

I mean: read the full 5K sensor, then average every 4 neighbouring same-color photosites (R=r+r+r+r, etc) to create a 2.5K bayer pattern; store that (which would be awesome) or, in a second step, debayer this to get a sharp 1080p image without aliasing/moire, with lower computational power required (uninformed guess; ur may require digic V to have a dedicated pipeline for averaging in the first step, but I don't think you need a lot of transistors for that)

 

[RichST]

I mean: read the full 5K sensor, then average every 4 neighbouring same-color photosites (R=r+r+r+r, etc) to create a 2.5K bayer pattern; store that (which would be awesome) or, in a second step, debayer this to get a sharp 1080p image without aliasing/moire, with lower computational power required (uninformed guess; ur may require digic V to have a dedicated pipeline for averaging in the first step, but I don't think you need a lot of transistors for that)

Hmm, that sounds like what Sony calls average addition, is the illustration on the left what you're thinking of?:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OF-8i5SSt8c/TmJupjVNJOI/AAAAAAAAA8M/mwjoTCKjA2E/s1600/Sony+2011_8-15.JPG

What Sony does from that point on with the pixels isn't made clear, they could be doing what Kodak does or could just be making a smaller Bayer pattern 1/9 the size of the original (which won't fix moire). What Kodak calls 2x2 binning applies the same addition idea but applies it to every pixel on the sensor, as found on page 29 of this spec sheet:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kodak.com%2Fek%2FUS%2Fen%2FKAI-10100LongSpec.htm&rct=j&q=kodak%20kai-10100%202x2&ei=qaKXTuiBOIOhsQK4hLWwBA&usg=AFQjCNGwarWPl7je696s_eaGgwSI5rFtCg

That's probably a decent way to do binning. If that doesn't work then maybe they should just pillage a few engineers from Panasonic, apparently they know a thing or two about binning

 

[Mencho(22)]

Something is really going on...

Today i received an email from CPS Mexico with the subject "Wait for the best for profesional photographers" and this image:

 

[gmrza]

3] Both new 1D and 5D will have the same sensor. No 6D, no 3D, no 2D, no 8D, no 4D, no any other "entry level" FF DSLR, a used 5D or 5D2 is your entry level. 5D2 should not be discontinued once 5D3 is released, big price drop expected ($2000?). I don't think that Canon could drop the APS-H just to make another, parallel FF line. It's more about sharing the same sensor and adding more features while keeping the sane price.

Basing the 1D5 and 5D3 around the same sensor would be an interesting departure, in terms of the positioning of the 5D, but more interestingly in terms of achieving economies of manufacturing scale, due to the number of 5Ds that Canon sells.

That would also preserve sales of the 1Ds line, because photographers who really need super-high resolution would not have the option of the 5D line as an alternative.

If this happens, I would expect a sensor that is shared by the 1D5 and 5D3 to be in the region of 27 to 32MP - definitely higher than 18MP.

5] New APS-C sensor next year for all new crop bodies - 7D2, 70D and 650D.

Has Canon painted itself into a corner here by allowing the 600D and 60D to reach the same sensor as the 7D well before Canon really needs to replace the 7D? It would be difficult for Canon to update the x0D or xx0D lines, especially with a new sensor, before releasing the 7D2.

What this all does still beg the question of is whether Canon would consider a lower MP full frame body. That is probably dependent on the economics of producing the sensor. There are probably a lot of enthusiasts who are still put off by the price of the 5D2, but who would pay a price somewhere above that of a 60D, maybe as much as a 7D for a full frame body.

 

[moreorless]

That would also preserve sales of the 1Ds line, because photographers who really need super-high resolution would not have the option of the 5D line as an alternative.

I'm guessing that more money could potentially be lost on 5D sales(worse potential shifts to Nikons rumoureds D800) than gained on 1Ds sales though.

A 1D/1Ds merge seems like it could have the same effect with that model having FPS and a cropping mode over the 5D mk3 aswell as AF and build.

The market for ultra high megapixels in a transportable body(800-900G rather than 1200-1300g) for landscape/travel is I'd say significant.

 

[John Thomas]

AFAIS I think that the "18MP" bit leads to a Foveon sensor.

Which is good, imho.

But this leads also to a marketing challenge. How they will tell the people that this, compared with nowaday Bayer sensors, means very good performance? I don't see how they would overpass this learning curve of their market.

...and this is bad, imho.

Just my2c

 

[Woody]

6] FF Foveon? Yes, please. Better details, better color, why not? But I really don't expect to see it in Canon body any time soon.

From what I hear, Foveon sensors have an issue with color accuracy. Of course, the folks who made this claim may be wrong. Or maybe Canon has a solution to this.

Then again, why does everyone think adoption of Foveon sensors is the best solution to all Canon sensor problems? Canon's dynamic range issue has more to do with their sensor electronic layout than anything else (not pixel size etc).

 

[J. McCabe]

but what do you mean by easy 4-to-1 pixel binning?

I mean: read the full 5K sensor, then average every 4 neighbouring same-color photosites (R=r+r+r+r, etc) to create a 2.5K bayer pattern; store that (which would be awesome) or, in a second step, debayer this to get a sharp 1080p image without aliasing/moire, with lower computational power required (uninformed guess; ur may require digic V to have a dedicated pipeline for averaging in the first step, but I don't think you need a lot of transistors for that)

AFAIK, averaging isn't [necessarily] part of binning. E.g. what a former employer of mine did was add up four adjacent pixels, making up a larger more light sensitive (read: higher ISO) pixel. As light was low, burnt pixels were very rare.

[It was an intra-oral camera, so there were both sensor size issues and heating issues. I still think this could have been resolved without resorting to binning, but that's beside the issue.]

Also note averaging will soften the image.

 

[te4o]

The tension here is building up - I could not discover any other previous thread in the forum longer than this one (except "What do you expect from the 5DIII - 18 pages) since May 2011 - I can't imagine what disappointment could follow if a rumour like this proves wrong in more than one aspect - this is quite a bit of pressure on our poor host. Let's relieve it - the 19 of October has a lot more wisdom than all our speculations. I will continue reading CR after this date even if nothing is announced.

 

[ecka]

6] FF Foveon? Yes, please. Better details, better color, why not? But I really don't expect to see it in Canon body any time soon.

From what I hear, Foveon sensors have an issue with color accuracy. Of course, the folks who made this claim may be wrong. Or maybe Canon has a solution to this.

Then again, why does everyone think adoption of Foveon sensors is the best solution to all Canon sensor problems? Canon's dynamic range issue has more to do with their sensor electronic layout than anything else (not pixel size etc).

Yes, but it has the potential

 

[Stuart]

I find it interesting that the Singapore announcement talked of families of EOS devices, if a Foevon device came into the family would this matter.
The 7D was a new family member that very popular.

At the moment i'd guess that its FF Foevon with a dual digic v and there is a video version in 3 weeks in hollywood.

 

[ecka]

3] Both new 1D and 5D will have the same sensor. No 6D, no 3D, no 2D, no 8D, no 4D, no any other "entry level" FF DSLR, a used 5D or 5D2 is your entry level. 5D2 should not be discontinued once 5D3 is released, big price drop expected ($2000?). I don't think that Canon could drop the APS-H just to make another, parallel FF line. It's more about sharing the same sensor and adding more features while keeping the sane price.

Basing the 1D5 and 5D3 around the same sensor would be an interesting departure, in terms of the positioning of the 5D, but more interestingly in terms of achieving economies of manufacturing scale, due to the number of 5Ds that Canon sells.

That would also preserve sales of the 1Ds line, because photographers who really need super-high resolution would not have the option of the 5D line as an alternative.

If this happens, I would expect a sensor that is shared by the 1D5 and 5D3 to be in the region of 27 to 32MP - definitely higher than 18MP.

That is correct. I believe it will be around 30MP

5] New APS-C sensor next year for all new crop bodies - 7D2, 70D and 650D.

Has Canon painted itself into a corner here by allowing the 600D and 60D to reach the same sensor as the 7D well before Canon really needs to replace the 7D? It would be difficult for Canon to update the x0D or xx0D lines, especially with a new sensor, before releasing the 7D2.

What this all does still beg the question of is whether Canon would consider a lower MP full frame body. That is probably dependent on the economics of producing the sensor. There are probably a lot of enthusiasts who are still put off by the price of the 5D2, but who would pay a price somewhere above that of a 60D, maybe as much as a 7D for a full frame body.

Yes, I'm expecting 7D2 to be the first (spring release season) and 70D to be the last (late summer) while 650D being somewhere in between or in a company with one of those (probably 7D2). On the other hand, all of them could be announced at the same time (spring release) and leave the late summer/autumn (photokina?) event for something else, like 5D3 if it's not coming this month .
Then again there is a problem, if a "cheap FF" will be born at 7D's price point, it could be "the end" for the 7D. I wouldn't buy a crop camera over FF for the same price. Would you?