New information about the upcoming Canon EOS R5C [CR3]

[jvillain]

Thanks. First, it seems like something that could hopefully be addressed with a firmware update. Second, it seems like something I don’t care about because I don’t shoot video on my ILCs (but definitely a problem for people who do).

I don't give a hoot what you do with your camera. This is a thread about the R5C so I suspect some one is going to try to shoot video with it. Could it be fixed with a firmware update? I suspect yes. Has it been? The new firmware is out and the answer is no.

…said the guy who stated that @LogicExtremist posted a pair of indistinguishable images because he failed to look at them closely enough to tell them apart.

You clearly don't understand what those images were supposed to demonstrate. Dithering isn't it..

 

[DBounce]

The C70 already has internal NDs and an RF mount.
So do the RED Komodo and V-Raptor

While the C70 does indeed have internal NDs, the same cannot be said of the Red Komodo 6K and V-Raptor.

 

[neuroanatomist]

You clearly don't understand what those images were supposed to demonstrate. Dithering isn't it..

I understand very well, thanks. Can't say the same for you, though. But that wasn't really my point. To review, here are the images:



Now, here's what you said about the images:

The images don't do what yu are hoping though becuase every one is looking at them on 8 or 10 bit monitors so they both look the same.

Please show us your clear understanding of how those two images look the same. Because to anyone with a functional brain behind their eyes, those two images are different.

 

[Finn]

A lot of photographers hate the S1H body

Who cares?

It has a nice screen implementation for video. I wish R5C would have something like this. Best of both worlds of a tilt and a flip forward when you needed that.

 

[Finn]

A lot of cinema cameras use Peltier coolers including the C70, FX3, and Komodo.

Oh yeah?... You don't know what you are talking about. Peltier cooling (thermoelectric) is insanely inefficient and causes condensation when humid air is present.

 

[LogicExtremist]

I don't give a hoot what you do with your camera. This is a thread about the R5C so I suspect some one is going to try to shoot video with it. Could it be fixed with a firmware update? I suspect yes. Has it been? The new firmware is out and the answer is no.




You clearly don't understand what those images were supposed to demonstrate. Dithering isn't it..

Maybe I have to explain the obvious, the link I provided from where I sourced the images explains it in even more detail, but as a summary, absolute black and absolute white are absent on the second image, please take a closer look. The black missing from the darker shades might be a bit harder to discern but the highlight end missing white is very clear. Not sure what you're using to view the images. Neuro is correct here. Hope this helps!

 

[thegenuineparticle]

Whatever this ends up being priced at is guaranteed to make the Cinema EOS C70 look like the steal of the century... The R5 is amazing but it's no cinema camera, and just shooting 8k doesn't make it a cinema camera either. The #1 thing that gives "cinema cameras" their look is the dynamic range and the C70 has it and the R5 doesn't. Unless the R5c has a new sensor with 16+ stops like the C70 in which case it will be worth it. So you'll have the "cinema body" in super 35 with the C70, and probably for the same price, a FF R5c with 8k and 16+ stops of DR. If you're hard core about video it would be worth it to you to have an R5c then. But, if the R5c is simply an R5 with a fan... no thanks.

 

[Gazwas]

Unless the R5c has a new sensor with 16+ stops like the C70 in which case it will be worth it.

Stranger things have happened. We never thought the R5 would be as amazing and feature laden before the announcement.

There is a new FF DGO, 8K sensor with 17 stops of DR rumoured for the C500S so who knows what Canon will do.

 

[LogicExtremist]

Stranger things have happened. We never thought the R5 would be as amazing and feature laden before the announcement.

There is a new FF DGO, 8K sensor with 17 stops of DR rumoured for the C500S so who knows what Canon will do.

If Canon does with the R5C what they did with the R5, then they will probably deliver a hybrid camera that does awesome video, better than any other Canon hybrid, but with a catch. It will also feature some badly thought out, half-assed, gimmicky stills photography feature that doesn't work properly, and that will strangely become the main marketing point in an over-hyped, misguided advertising campaign which ignores what the camera does really well!

Let's hope Canon's "new ideas" team and marketing team, that bought us the stupid multi-function bar on the EOS R, and the almost useless overheating 8K video on the R5, don't balls it up this time round!

 

[David - Sydney]

No one trusts an engineer.
That unfortunately includes the product design team

Well, the product marketing team didn't do a great job with the R5 announcements for high bit rate video. Maybe the engineers could have done more (besides leading the market with the first 8k hybrid) and subsequently improved it even more with firmware updates. Still the only hybrid that can record 8k raw in 12 bit if you need it. The Z9 will have 8k60 next year though but only 10 bit at release.
The main engineering issue is that the Digic X is less efficient compared to Sony's processors. The CIPA results and heating in general coupled with practically the same battery capacity shows a marked difference. Maybe Digic XI will use a smaller lithography process to improve this issue.

 

[jam05]

Oh yeah?... You don't know what you are talking about. Peltier cooling (thermoelectric) is insanely inefficient and causes condensation when humid air is present.

Yes, the poorly designed ones

 

[jam05]

Well, the product marketing team didn't do a great job with the R5 announcements for high bit rate video. Maybe the engineers could have done more (besides leading the market with the first 8k hybrid) and subsequently improved it even more with firmware updates. Still the only hybrid that can record 8k raw in 12 bit if you need it. The Z9 will have 8k60 next year though but only 10 bit at release.
The main engineering issue is that the Digic X is less efficient compared to Sony's processors. The CIPA results and heating in general coupled with practically the same battery capacity shows a marked difference. Maybe Digic XI will use a smaller lithography process to improve this issue.
View attachment 201245

 

[jam05]

Compared to which Sony processors? When one generalizes it often the case that no supporting data realy exist and that one is merely speculating. Post your side by side sensor data of the processors you state efficiencies for. CIPA is not an international engineering standard.

 

[koenkooi]

Compared to which Sony processors? When one generalizes it often the case that no supporting data realy exist and that one is merely speculating. Post your side by side sensor data of the processors you state efficiencies for. CIPA is not an international engineering standard.

I think the idea comes from observing the Sony A1 doing 8k without showing an overheating warning and the R5 doing 8k, but with an overheat warning. Same thing for oversampled 4k.

I'm not saying that's a valid way of determining efficiency

 

[Finn]

Stranger things have happened. We never thought the R5 would be as amazing and feature laden before the announcement.

There is a new FF DGO, 8K sensor with 17 stops of DR rumoured for the C500S so who knows what Canon will do.

The description of the R5C sounds very much like a C70 with a R5 45MP FF sensor in it. Which, in my opinion, is not very much of an upgrade of anything. Worse than the C70 in image, bigger than an R5 with no benefits except record times.

I would much rather take a this new FF DGO sensor in the rumored C500S gimped to 13-14 stops of dynamic range or something.

All we need is a FF DGO sensor in a small cinema body (c70 or smaller). If the form factor of the C70 was tweaked a bit and the screen improved that would be awesome.

 

[David - Sydney]

Compared to which Sony processors? When one generalizes it often the case that no supporting data realy exist and that one is merely speculating. Post your side by side sensor data of the processors you state efficiencies for. CIPA is not an international engineering standard.

We are all speculating but making some considered guesses based on assumptions.
CIPA has been going for ~70 years and virtually all camera manufacturers are regular or supporting members. They have a variety of standards that they collaborate on. It is the only measure that the manufacturers publish their specs against.

Happy for you to tell me what engineering standard is relevant for photographers if you don't like CIPA. At the end of the day, togs just want to know how long a battery will last for their shooting style.

From a very rough perspective, Sony's FZ100 battery is approximately the same capacity (+7%) as the E6NH but the difference in CIPA ratings and the thermal limitations across a number of bodies would indicate that Sony's processors are more efficient than Canon. Clearly CIPA is an average but ~30% between R5/A1 (EVF) in not insignificant. Different shooting methodologies mean that CIPA is indicative but still a measure. There are lots of other factors eg EVF refresh rates, what temperature Sony/Canon will allow internal semiconductors to work up to, etc.

From a logical perspective, the Canon's choice of 45mp for the R5 means that no oversampling is needed using the Digic X. The A1's dual Bionz XR needs to oversample from 8.6k and process via codec to 4:2:0 XAVC HS vs virtually no processing for Canon raw. The use of the CFe Type B card seems to also generate a lot more heat whereas the A1 can record to the SD card as the bit rate isn't as high. The A1 is smaller than the R5 but the use of dual processors could either mean better heat distribution.

My assumption is that Sony's engineering history for video processing for their PS consoles would be portable technology. The camera processors could also have access to narrower lithography processes based on Sony's overall semiconductor volume. I haven't seen any teardown of the A1 yet. Will be interesting to see what is on the inside

 

[danivar]

The description of the R5C sounds very much like a C70 with a R5 45MP FF sensor in it. Which, in my opinion, is not very much of an upgrade of anything. Worse than the C70 in image, bigger than an R5 with no benefits except record times.

I would much rather take a this new FF DGO sensor in the rumored C500S gimped to 13-14 stops of dynamic range or something.

All we need is a FF DGO sensor in a small cinema body (c70 or smaller). If the form factor of the C70 was tweaked a bit and the screen improved that would be awesome.

I really agree that a FF DGO sensor in the R5C is what we all want and need, but unfortunately I just don't think that's realistic to expect.

The R5C is still going to be a hybrid camera and I don't believe Canon makes any of their cinema sensors optimized for stills.

I also think cameras with cinema sensors will cost a lot more. A camera with a FF DGO sensor would most likely be priced above 10.000 USD, even if it's gimped in DR, while I expect the R5C to be priced slightly above the R5.

We will surely get a FF DGO sensor in a C70-style body in time, but it will more likely be in the form of a C90 than in the rumored R5C.

I also agree that the upgrades from the R5 seems quite incremental, but they are very relevant in addressing the R5's shortcomings and making the R5C actually usable as a professional hybrid tool. And while the DR isn't good enough to replace a true cinema camera, being a hybrid gives you other advantages and that comes with some compromises.

 

[Finn]

I really agree that a FF DGO sensor in the R5C is what we all want and need, but unfortunately I just don't think that's realistic to expect.

The R5C is still going to be a hybrid camera and I don't believe Canon makes any of their cinema sensors optimized for stills.

I also think cameras with cinema sensors will cost a lot more. A camera with a FF DGO sensor would most likely be priced above 10.000 USD, even if it's gimped in DR, while I expect the R5C to be priced slightly above the R5.

We will surely get a FF DGO sensor in a C70-style body in time, but it will more likely be in the form of a C90 than in the rumored R5C.

I also agree that the upgrades from the R5 seems quite incremental, but they are very relevant in addressing the R5's shortcomings and making the R5C actually usable as a professional hybrid tool. And while the DR isn't good enough to replace a true cinema camera, being a hybrid gives you other advantages and that comes with some compromises.

I'm sure you are correct in your prediction. Perhaps the R5C will signal a new form factor going forward for a small Canon C cameras, which is a good thing. I really hope we see a FF DGO sensor in a less than $6K body.

 

[cayenne]

Yeah, It is kind of a 1 trick pony.
The price is down to $1K USD until January 2022 which seems more reasonable.

Is there any real compelling reason to get the Atomos V+ vs the V at this point?

 

[stevelee]

Though I must say, I tried the GFX 100s and it was realy quite slow. I think its only suited for studio work.
If canon offers a 70mp something fullframe camera, I would certainly prefer this over the GFX 100s, even for shooting in a controlled setting. Though its a tempting camera with this impressive resolution.

The shooting I would do with the 100s would be very slow and deliberate, so the camera would be faster than I would be. I would get it for landscapes, mostly with a tripod and playing around with settings, focus, etc. It would not take over for my DSLR. It is still tempting, though I realize I am unlikely to do that sort of shooting very often.