Show me a SHARP 5D Mark IV photo
- Thread starter Mancubus
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AlanF said:mycanonphotos said:
I would not normally comment on this, but if you are showing this image as an example of a sharp image, then I have to. The white halos around the head and legs are what you get when over-sharpening with USM. Maybe there is another reason here?
Normally I wouldn't comment on such a comment since its probably much similar to what it may be like to pounding sand down a rat hole...
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mycanonphotos said:AlanF said:mycanonphotos said:
I would not normally comment on this, but if you are showing this image as an example of a sharp image, then I have to. The white halos around the head and legs are what you get when over-sharpening with USM. Maybe there is another reason here?
Normally I wouldn't comment on such a comment since its probably much similar to what it may be like to pounding sand down a rat hole...
You took this image at 400mm using the 100-400mm II, which isn't the sharpest lens for testing the sensor, and you also used f/11, which is significantly above the diffraction limited aperture of f/8.6 for the 5DIV and will soften the image. Maybe they are reasons.
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AlanF said:
I don't understand this new, to me, fad of burning the educator. It seems people want to put their efforts into a public space but are only interested in positive reinforcement and compliments, they react unfavourably to even the gentlest of constructive comments let alone critiques. Alan was being helpful for goodness sake.
At this point in time there is a sizable subset of 'photographers' who's only criteria for an excellent image seems to be pixel level sharpness irrespective of subsequent output size or viewing distance, or indeed any conceptual understanding of comparative viewing of different pixel density or sensor sizes. That being so the result means skilled sharpening techniques are imperative (for them) and I have yet to see a single example of advanced sharpening in this thread.
Even semi skilled post processing will beat the minuscule differences between cameras now. If you want 'better', 'sharper', 'nicer' images learn post processing, not as much fun as a new toy but much more effective.
If anybody is interested in learning a little then here is an excellent tutorial on mitigating halos made when sharpening.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVgfbiH4-fw
Actually Jimmy's channel is absolutely packed with editing gems. I don't buy plugins but did purchase his RayaPro panel as it saves so much time, he very recently added an advanced luminosity mask panel for free too. Anybody still doing advanced editing without a luminosity mask workflow is well behind the curve.
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AlanF said:
Add me to the appreciation list although I'll have to try to translate it to ON1 RAW format. So much to learn. Since purchasing ON1 RAW they continue to provide lots of new support material but I'm still stuck in the too busy rut.
There are many factors that lead children to grow into adults that don't relish criticism. Sometimes it's being the youngest and always being corrected etc., so I try to just accept it as a fact of life. Never the less, it's not the wisest choice.
Jack
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And another big thank you for the link. I also just skimmed and bookmarked articles on luminosity masks. While I've been into photography and a Canon user since 1975, I'm still a novice at this editing business. I upgraded to the 5 D Mark IV and one of the reasons was my desire for increased "sharpness" in my photos. In the past I would shoot and pick the ones I liked. Then finally was a late comer to raw and started basic edits. I did no post sharpening until this year and have been bumbling along with it. So your link opened a treasure trove of articles and videos to help me learn. I was already pleased with the improvements just from going to the higher resolution and some very basic sharpening attempts. So looking forward to learning more tips. So thanks again for the info.
And my two cents on how people react to critiques. There are many folks on this forum who are really good at offering constructive advice and it's one reason I read a lot of comments just to learn. There are some, however, who could learn a little on how to constructively teach instead of showing how brilliant they are by resorting to insults instead of trying to be helpful. It's not surprising that someone would react negatively to the latter. I might add that I have seen none of the latter on this particular thread.
And my two cents on how people react to critiques. There are many folks on this forum who are really good at offering constructive advice and it's one reason I read a lot of comments just to learn. There are some, however, who could learn a little on how to constructively teach instead of showing how brilliant they are by resorting to insults instead of trying to be helpful. It's not surprising that someone would react negatively to the latter. I might add that I have seen none of the latter on this particular thread.
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atlcroc, have you used the various RAW capabilities in Canon DPP for starters. If not I'd highly recommend it as a basic starting point. I am in much the same position as you but I've found that DPP makes a world of difference assuming it's not major editing I need.
Jack
Jack
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Jack,
I've downloaded DPP, but have used Photoshop Elements and Lightroom. When I took a basic course with my first digital camera the instructor recommended Photoshop Elements and so I have over 20,000 photos organized there and use that and the companion Premier Elements to burn AVCHD shows that I've shared with friends. So have been using it for organizing since version 3 and currently use PSE 15. The ACR version in elements is pretty good for what I try to do. I just discovered yesterday that I can then open the raw file and use unsharp mask and other tools to do further edits. I bought Lightroom but was so used to Photoshop Elements that I only go over to Lightroom for problems like chromatic aberration and some lens corrections. I did not want to get into paying a monthly fee and so have not gone to the full version of photoshop. The HD DVDS I produce are really sharp enough on my regular HD TVs and so I may be going overboard in trying to get even sharper results and it may not even show up on the TV. I print only for myself and never have done larger than and 8 X 10 and so again, I may just be guilty of pixel peeping and not really need the extra processing. But this is my hobby and it's great fun to keep learning and trying to get better.
I've downloaded DPP, but have used Photoshop Elements and Lightroom. When I took a basic course with my first digital camera the instructor recommended Photoshop Elements and so I have over 20,000 photos organized there and use that and the companion Premier Elements to burn AVCHD shows that I've shared with friends. So have been using it for organizing since version 3 and currently use PSE 15. The ACR version in elements is pretty good for what I try to do. I just discovered yesterday that I can then open the raw file and use unsharp mask and other tools to do further edits. I bought Lightroom but was so used to Photoshop Elements that I only go over to Lightroom for problems like chromatic aberration and some lens corrections. I did not want to get into paying a monthly fee and so have not gone to the full version of photoshop. The HD DVDS I produce are really sharp enough on my regular HD TVs and so I may be going overboard in trying to get even sharper results and it may not even show up on the TV. I print only for myself and never have done larger than and 8 X 10 and so again, I may just be guilty of pixel peeping and not really need the extra processing. But this is my hobby and it's great fun to keep learning and trying to get better.
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atlcroc said:
Not unlike me. I had and used Corel Paintshop a little but recently have purchased ON1 RAW and am really impressed with what they are determined to do with it, especially tutorials.
I believe that the lens specific sharpening in Canon DPP can't be outdone and always start with DPP for the RAW processing.
Jack
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privatebydesign said:
It's a good technique to be aware of, but simply using Smart Sharpen instead of USM, and keeping the radius down to 0.3-0.5px, is a lot simpler and very effective. I'm not actually convinced that the principle of applying less sharpening to edges is a good one for most images - sharp edges contribute a great deal to making an image look subjectively sharp.
But maybe he addresses these issues himself somewhere - I've bookmarked it to take a longer look when I have some spare time.
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Yes, I was surprised by having a setting that basically blurs the edge.
I've seen one technique (maybe from one of the pages on this site) where you use the close tool, sample the colour from close to the edge on the 'white' side of the halo, use the 'darken' blend option and run the cursor over the edge. This replaces the white halo but does not touch the object itself because that will usually be darker still.
I've seen one technique (maybe from one of the pages on this site) where you use the close tool, sample the colour from close to the edge on the 'white' side of the halo, use the 'darken' blend option and run the cursor over the edge. This replaces the white halo but does not touch the object itself because that will usually be darker still.
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Steve Balcombe said:
Mikehit said:
Like all these techniques, it is just another tool to add to your knowledge.
I have found it to be an excellent solution to troublesome images where you really need heavy sharpening to get general sharpness levels up but in doing so sharpens exposed and contrasty edges too much, it is just a way of mitigating that issue and was relevant to the specific image that initially prompted me to post the link. In the video look at the level of sharpening in the misty mountain side, that gets much sharper - the seeming raison d'être for so many photographers now - yet he controls the halos well on the contrasty ridge so it doesn't look over sharpened. I never suggested it was a technique you would need to use regularly. It's not so much 'blurring the edge' as enabling different levels of sharpening on different edges.
It is effectively a way of refining the masking slider in Lightroom, you can sharpen the pores on the skin yet not have halos on the side of the face.
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Question for Jack or anyone. Does ON1Raw have tools for smart sharpening included? Also, the when checking the current version, it does not indicate files for the 5 D Mark IV are supported yet, so has it been updated yet for the raw files from the 5 D Mark IV? This topic has been a great learning experience so far. Since new to sharpening, I had never heard of some of these techniques. After reading some of the references and some additional research, just tried the High Pass sharpening technique for the first time and it made a great improvement over my shots of a back pond and some flowering trees. Wanted to also experiment with smart sharpening, but can not find the tools to try this in Photoshop Elements or my version of Lightroom. Right now feeling a bit of overload trying to understand all of this, but once I get comfortable with what I can do with current software, might want to add some other software to further enhance my options. Thanks in advance for any help.
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Thanks, Mikehit. The basic sharpening I can do with the latest ACR version in Elements and the High Pass filter techniques I just tried may be all I need at this stage of my learning. Already just the few attempts so far using any sharpening have made a significant difference. Time to get these basics down before spending time and $ on more tools.
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atlcroc said:
I'm not presently able to address questions relating to ON1 RAW because I haven't had the time to use it and have only watched a number of pretty good videos they have produced. I might have gone for PS but didn't want to be bound to their lease model. I have been quite impressed by ON1's dedication to updating and improving, but time will tell.
Looks like the 5D4 is supported but there is no smart sharpening feature. Here is a pdf manual.
http://ononesoft.cachefly.net/content/ON1-Photo-RAW-2017-User-Guide.pdf
Jack
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atlcroc said:
I think the easiest thing is to get to grips with USM (unsharp mask), high pass sharpening and maybe luminosity masks (something I am just starting to do). Then you can see what parts of the process you want to improve. If my experience is anything to go by, I find that these alternative techniques solve problems I didn't know I had and the effects are subtle in comparison but can make a significant difference, so I would say research them as and when you see something you want to solve.
One of the biggest pieces of advice I got was that high detail areas can be sharpened and any effects that increase noise will often be hidden by the detail. And don't sharpen low-detail areas. So for example if you have a picture of a bird against a blue sky, you can sharpen the bird quite aggressively but this will make the sky pretty horrible, so you restrict sharpening to the bird. This is where things like smart sharpen come in but you can do it just as well by creating a layer in Elements, sharpen the top layer then pain in the unsharpened sky from the original.
If you are sharpening hundreds of images, then you may well find that it is worth paying to get smartsharpen.
Two other sets you may be (correction, should be) interested in are:
Google Nik collection: https://www.google.com/nikcollection/ this a free suite and is an excellent addition
Elements+: http://simplephotoshop.com/buy_elements+.htm This unlocks many functions that reside within Elements and add significantly to what it can do. At $12 it is well worth it.
There are also things called 'actions' which are like mini programs. You can't create them in PSE but you can download run some of them in PSE. Many 'actions' are created by keen photographers who just like doing things like this (sometimes they are free, sometimes you pay for them).
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I just took a quick look at those 2 links. Will definitely load the first one and see how the selective sharpening feature works. Probably will pay for the second one too. I've tested a few more photos today and just using the High Pass option in PSE has worked extremely well so far. I'm probably only going to go back to what I considered my best shots and not do hundreds. Will definitely add sharpening to my work flow going forward. Would love to be able to reciprocate but the one area that I've gotten better is in developing HD dvds of slides with music. Still using PSE 11 for these since Adobe took away flexibility with slide show formats after 11. Typically I buy music from street vendors locally when traveling and spend as much time on the music selection and syncing to match scenes as I do editing photos. So if you have any interest in that area I might be able to help. Again, I really appreciate all of your help.
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