Some EOS 5D Mark IV Information [CR1]

[scyrene]

It's especially important to note that some of us users are mad about Canon not just only because they hold back technology intentionally while the products are expensive. Maybe that always has been the case, but historically it was never that obvious as it is now. As an owner of a Canon 5D2 in November 2008, would i have complained the same way? Not at all, the other manufacturers did hardly have anything better to offer, and Canon was on top and innovative by bringing the 1080p video mode to full frame. But right now in July 2015, all other manufacturers are more innovative and seem to care about consumers, and there's lots of attractive features offered to them. Canon should better be implementing any imaginable feature they have on their internal 5D4 possibility list, otherwise their DSLR branch could go the Nokia way.

I genuinely don't understand this attitude. If they charge too much for a product that's underspecified for my needs, I go elsewhere - I don't get angry with them. If people are still buying their products then they can't be doing that badly overall.

 

[Takingshots]

After the release of Sony A7R mkii, I think imo Canon might be delaying the 5D mk iv to see if they can fine tune better with what they thought would be good enough for its 2016 release....

 

[ahsanford]

Indeed Canon does plenty of excellent market research, unfortunately their conclusion is to squeeze as much money out of the consumers for as long as possible by splitting requested features into many different products, instead of thinking what the people really want. Many want to have high photo resolution and 4K alongside swivel screens, higher dynamic range etc at the same time in one product. As a Canon user, right now you would have to buy and carry around a 5DsR, a 760D and a C300II to do something similar you could with one Sony A7RII, while spending 6x as much money. Consumers should demand what's in the best interest of their own bank account, and not Canon's bank account. I personally would even buy a C300II although it's twice expensive as the Sony FS7, but i won't because they save 4K 60fps for the even more expensive C500II that will cost 3.5x as much as the Sony. This is where my brand loyalty ends.

I think as consumers/professionals, we assess how many boxes that a product ticks off of our checklist (within some range of price and practicality).

For me, my camera body 'priorities seesaw' looks like this:
(I realize these are arbitrary batsh-- combinations, but hear me out. It's not to convince you to change your mind so much as make a point)

[list type=decimal]
[*]The ability to shoot in low light is far more important than having a smaller overall rig size.


[*]AF tuneability, reliability, speed and tracking is far more important than dynamic range.


[*]Having comprehensive options in reliable first-party lenses is far more important than the option to bolt 57 companies gear on to my mount.


[*]I want something sturdy and reliable more than I want something versatile.



[*]Tiebreaker = I want to keep the gear I already own much much much more than I want to improve my IQ by 5%.


[/list]

All of that adds up to:

[list type=decimal]
[*]I should use a FF rig.
[*]I should use Canon or Nikon with a higher end AF system (or at least a non-budget one) -- or perhaps put more sternly, I should not use Sony
[*]I should use the Canon EF, Nikon F, or m43 mount
[*]I should use a non-articulating LCD
[/list]

The only rigs that satisfy all of those criteria simultaneously in my budget is a Canon 5D rig (5D3, 5DS, etc.) or the Nikon D810. The tiebreaker is the voice of reason, which is that we buy in to mounts and not specific camera bodies. So I'll stay with Canon, b/c that's where my glass is.

Why I wrote all this: Clearly, your priorities are different, and it's clear that your preferences are being forced to straddle many product lines. That's a 100% legitimate beef with Canon. If you employ your own form of set theory to the problem, perhaps you'll come to the conclusion that you shouldn't be with Canon any longer, and it might be time to migrate. That might be the best play for you. Just make sure that you are not simply moving to the features you don't have and you also consider what Canon currently does well that you might be walking away from -- rent first and use only that new platform for a solid week of shooting and make sure you really can live without Canon's handling, AF, whatever.

- A

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Try getting a shot that is...
- from knee height or lower (if you want extra points, make the surface muddy or water/wet)
- from above your head and straight ahead (put a fence or people in your way)
... without a swivel screen.

It doesn't need to swing out to the side but being able to shoot when the camera is above your head or so low down that you would have to lay down is quite useful. I didn't realise how useful the low down was until I tried it.

Dilbert, I hear you -- the upsides are clear. But some folks are leery about breaking off their LCD or it conking out on them in the field. A solid screen is more robust -- that can't be really be denied, can it?

I'm just saying that right now, the number of folks who value LCD robustness outnumber those who want it to swivel... in the FF segment. Clearly that's not the case elsewhere.

- A

If you are worried about it snapping off, then just keep it in locked to the body mode. I have yet to ever read a single story where someone doing that has ever had it get damaged where it would not have been damaged in case (such as the screen smashing straight down onto a pointy rock).

Pros could make use of swivel at least as much as amateurs, I don't see what a pro or not has to do with it.

Maybe in some extreme conditions it might be less weatherproof, but I'm not sure that has really even been shown to be the actual case.

 

[LonelyBoy]

Indeed Canon does plenty of excellent market research, unfortunately their conclusion is to squeeze as much money out of the consumers for as long as possible by splitting requested features into many different products, instead of thinking what the people really want. Many want to have high photo resolution and 4K alongside swivel screens, higher dynamic range etc at the same time in one product. As a Canon user, right now you would have to buy and carry around a 5DsR, a 760D and a C300II to do something similar you could with one Sony A7RII, while spending 6x as much money. Consumers should demand what's in the best interest of their own bank account, and not Canon's bank account. I personally would even buy a C300II although it's twice expensive as the Sony FS7, but i won't because they save 4K 60fps for the even more expensive C500II that will cost 3.5x as much as the Sony. This is where my brand loyalty ends.

What do you think Sony's conclusion is? Offer photographic equipment out of the good of their hearts for the advancement of the art?

 

[jeffa4444]

Its unrealistic for Canon to provide every option in the 5D MKIV, Sony doesnt, Nikon doesn't and nor does Panasonic etc.
The human eye can detect around 20 stops of DR (some women with three cones its higher) if its healthy and young so clearly 12 stops as in most Canon cameras when many competitors sensors give 14 stops is a feature they need to catch up on. Note even with 14 stops Nikon users still use ND grads, NDs etc. The one area regardless of what features we all would like is noise and banding especially low level banding which even the VG sensor in the 6D suffers from, I dont see that in Sony sensors and given present tech is unforgiveable from Canon.

All the other stuff comes down to ergonomics, shooting style, subject matter and personal preferences so one size will never fit all.

 

[douglaurent]

What do you think Sony's conclusion is? Offer photographic equipment out of the good of their hearts for the advancement of the art?
[/quote]

Sony's main goal of course is the same as Canon: maximizing profits. But their masterplan is totally different: they believe they sell more by giving the consumer the best product and exceeding expectations with features, like Canon unintentionally did with the video features of the 5D2. Just an hour ago a camera men told me many in his scene were waiting for the C300II, but since it is clear that it is twice as expensive with less features, they order a Sony FS7 now. Probably some would even pay twice as much if the C300II had 4k 60fps, but as Canon holds back that feature they pass. Canon might not see a decrease in sales today, but the loss in reputation will lead to that. Great body form factors, a great autofocus and a great brand name are not enough anymore in the year 2015!

 

[LonelyBoy]

Sony's main goal of course is the same as Canon: maximizing profits. But their masterplan is totally different: they believe they sell more by giving the consumer the best product and exceeding expectations with features, like Canon unintentionally did with the video features of the 5D2. Just an hour ago a camera men told me many in his scene were waiting for the C300II, but since it is clear that it is twice as expensive with less features, they order a Sony FS7 now. Probably some would even pay twice as much if the C300II had 4k 60fps, but as Canon holds back that feature they pass. Canon might not see a decrease in sales today, but the loss in reputation will lead to that. Great body form factors, a great autofocus and a great brand name are not enough anymore in the year 2015!

Why do you keep removing the opening quote tag?

Sony is packing in as much as they can because they're desperate. The lower players always pack in more features to try to compete - look at the standard equipment on the Korean cars vs the established brands.

 

[douglaurent]

Sony's main goal of course is the same as Canon: maximizing profits. But their masterplan is totally different: they believe they sell more by giving the consumer the best product and exceeding expectations with features, like Canon unintentionally did with the video features of the 5D2. Just an hour ago a camera men told me many in his scene were waiting for the C300II, but since it is clear that it is twice as expensive with less features, they order a Sony FS7 now. Probably some would even pay twice as much if the C300II had 4k 60fps, but as Canon holds back that feature they pass. Canon might not see a decrease in sales today, but the loss in reputation will lead to that. Great body form factors, a great autofocus and a great brand name are not enough anymore in the year 2015!

Why do you keep removing the opening quote tag?

because posts will unnecessarily become too long and only relevant info is needed for readers in a new post.

Sony is packing in as much as they can because they're desperate. The lower players always pack in more features to try to compete - look at the standard equipment on the Korean cars vs the established brands.

It absolutely doesnt matter why Sony has better features, as long as it's in the consumers interest. If Canon only does think about their profits, consumers should do the same and only think about their advantages. Worshipping Canon without criticizing anything, while they are behind in many ways is not the right signal a potential user should send to Canon in these competitive times on all ends.

 

[jeffa4444]

Sony's main goal of course is the same as Canon: maximizing profits. But their masterplan is totally different: they believe they sell more by giving the consumer the best product and exceeding expectations with features, like Canon unintentionally did with the video features of the 5D2. Just an hour ago a camera men told me many in his scene were waiting for the C300II, but since it is clear that it is twice as expensive with less features, they order a Sony FS7 now. Probably some would even pay twice as much if the C300II had 4k 60fps, but as Canon holds back that feature they pass. Canon might not see a decrease in sales today, but the loss in reputation will lead to that. Great body form factors, a great autofocus and a great brand name are not enough anymore in the year 2015!

Why do you keep removing the opening quote tag?

Sony is packing in as much as they can because they're desperate. The lower players always pack in more features to try to compete - look at the standard equipment on the Korean cars vs the established brands.

Check the news wires in 2012 Sony invested $ 1BN in its three CMOS wafer plants, in 2015 it annouced it would spend a further $ 890M to raise production from 60,000 wafers a month to 80,000 wafers a month. Some lower player.
We want Canon to continue to be a healthy competitive company, facts are facts Sony investment in CMOS technology far exceeds Canon the dollars it earns from Apple alone any company would crave. To compare Sony to a Korean car company is silly the F65 / F55 / F5 / FS7 trump Canon C500, C300/C300 MKII, C100 etc. Sure Sony has its issues, but it also has its strenghts exactly the same as Canon.

 

[NancyP]

Tilting screen would be handy. I do a lot of near-ground macro, which means I am often on my elbows and knees.
Interchangeable screens! Why would the 6D have this and 5D3 not have this option? I like manual focus and using fast primes in MF.
Moveable spot metering - haven't had it before but this sounds like a great idea.

 

[Sporgon]

Interchangeable screens! Why would the 6D have this and 5D3 not have this option? I like manual focus and using fast primes in MF.

I think it was something to do with the LCD overlay, or transmissive LCD and cost. Neither the 7D nor the 5DIII had interchangeable screens, but the 7DII does. I'm sure the 5DIV will feature one.

 

[dak723]

It's especially important to note that some of us users are mad about Canon not just only because they hold back technology intentionally while the products are expensive. Maybe that always has been the case, but historically it was never that obvious as it is now. As an owner of a Canon 5D2 in November 2008, would i have complained the same way? Not at all, the other manufacturers did hardly have anything better to offer, and Canon was on top and innovative by bringing the 1080p video mode to full frame. But right now in July 2015, all other manufacturers are more innovative and seem to care about consumers, and there's lots of attractive features offered to them. Canon should better be implementing any imaginable feature they have on their internal 5D4 possibility list, otherwise their DSLR branch could go the Nokia way.

I genuinely don't understand this attitude. If they charge too much for a product that's underspecified for my needs, I go elsewhere - I don't get angry with them. If people are still buying their products then they can't be doing that badly overall.

Yes, it's really very simple. If you don't like what Canon is offering and you really want all the features that the new Sony has - buy the Sony. No one here will complain. Don't get mad at Canon. Don't try to convince all Canon users that they should get a Sony, too. Don't try to convince Canon users that the DSLR is dead. Don't worry about Canon's future or their marketing strategy. Just get the Sony. And let those of us who prefer Canon buy our new Canons or keep our old Canons. Why does it matter to you?

I have a very simple reason for buying from Canon. I like their IQ better. I have tried the Sony A7 and A7 II. I have tried the Olympus OM-D EM-1. Compared to the Canon 6D (and SL1) I like the Canon IQ more. I think the Canons expose more accurately. I like their color better and their tone curves. I have also found in the past that their cameras are well built and reliable (never needed a repair on 2 Canon film cameras and had the 300D for 9 years) so that is important, too. Don't need all the bells and whistles. Found Sony's 2 stop DR advantage made no difference in MY real world shooting. So if I am happy with Canon's offerings, please let me be.

People who whine and complain in an era where cameras are far better than ever aren't getting my sympathy. And when you whine and complain, it tells us far more about you than it does about Canon.

 

[douglaurent]

It's especially important to note that some of us users are mad about Canon not just only because they hold back technology intentionally while the products are expensive. Maybe that always has been the case, but historically it was never that obvious as it is now. As an owner of a Canon 5D2 in November 2008, would i have complained the same way? Not at all, the other manufacturers did hardly have anything better to offer, and Canon was on top and innovative by bringing the 1080p video mode to full frame. But right now in July 2015, all other manufacturers are more innovative and seem to care about consumers, and there's lots of attractive features offered to them. Canon should better be implementing any imaginable feature they have on their internal 5D4 possibility list, otherwise their DSLR branch could go the Nokia way.

I genuinely don't understand this attitude. If they charge too much for a product that's underspecified for my needs, I go elsewhere - I don't get angry with them. If people are still buying their products then they can't be doing that badly overall.

Yes, it's really very simple. If you don't like what Canon is offering and you really want all the features that the new Sony has - buy the Sony. No one here will complain. Don't get mad at Canon. Don't try to convince all Canon users that they should get a Sony, too. Don't try to convince Canon users that the DSLR is dead. Don't worry about Canon's future or their marketing strategy. Just get the Sony. And let those of us who prefer Canon buy our new Canons or keep our old Canons. Why does it matter to you?

I have a very simple reason for buying from Canon. I like their IQ better. I have tried the Sony A7 and A7 II. I have tried the Olympus OM-D EM-1. Compared to the Canon 6D (and SL1) I like the Canon IQ more. I think the Canons expose more accurately. I like their color better and their tone curves. I have also found in the past that their cameras are well built and reliable (never needed a repair on 2 Canon film cameras and had the 300D for 9 years) so that is important, too. Don't need all the bells and whistles. Found Sony's 2 stop DR advantage made no difference in MY real world shooting. So if I am happy with Canon's offerings, please let me be.

People who whine and complain in an era where cameras are far better than ever aren't getting my sympathy. And when you whine and complain, it tells us far more about you than it does about Canon.

After reading your text i have realized what an asshole i have been for hinting towards proven facts. I can't remember that i have mentally or physically forced you to buy products of another brand, as I also don't like to buy products of another brand myself, which is why i am writing here in this forum. Anyway i am very sorry and will try to become a better and nicer person like you. I think you are right that in the future we all simply should accept any price, quality and feature that Canon has to offer in any of their products. Because any of their upcoming products is better than their old one, which is always more than we can ask for. Technically this whole forum is redundant, as we Canon users all simply just wait for new releases and work with whatever new improvements they have, regardless to the current standards of technology. Life will be much easier if you never question huge corporations, governments etc! Usually they will change to the better by themselves without any pressure, right?

 

[dak723]

It's especially important to note that some of us users are mad about Canon not just only because they hold back technology intentionally while the products are expensive. Maybe that always has been the case, but historically it was never that obvious as it is now. As an owner of a Canon 5D2 in November 2008, would i have complained the same way? Not at all, the other manufacturers did hardly have anything better to offer, and Canon was on top and innovative by bringing the 1080p video mode to full frame. But right now in July 2015, all other manufacturers are more innovative and seem to care about consumers, and there's lots of attractive features offered to them. Canon should better be implementing any imaginable feature they have on their internal 5D4 possibility list, otherwise their DSLR branch could go the Nokia way.

I genuinely don't understand this attitude. If they charge too much for a product that's underspecified for my needs, I go elsewhere - I don't get angry with them. If people are still buying their products then they can't be doing that badly overall.

Yes, it's really very simple. If you don't like what Canon is offering and you really want all the features that the new Sony has - buy the Sony. No one here will complain. Don't get mad at Canon. Don't try to convince all Canon users that they should get a Sony, too. Don't try to convince Canon users that the DSLR is dead. Don't worry about Canon's future or their marketing strategy. Just get the Sony. And let those of us who prefer Canon buy our new Canons or keep our old Canons. Why does it matter to you?

I have a very simple reason for buying from Canon. I like their IQ better. I have tried the Sony A7 and A7 II. I have tried the Olympus OM-D EM-1. Compared to the Canon 6D (and SL1) I like the Canon IQ more. I think the Canons expose more accurately. I like their color better and their tone curves. I have also found in the past that their cameras are well built and reliable (never needed a repair on 2 Canon film cameras and had the 300D for 9 years) so that is important, too. Don't need all the bells and whistles. Found Sony's 2 stop DR advantage made no difference in MY real world shooting. So if I am happy with Canon's offerings, please let me be.

People who whine and complain in an era where cameras are far better than ever aren't getting my sympathy. And when you whine and complain, it tells us far more about you than it does about Canon.

After reading your text i have realized what an asshole i have been for hinting towards proven facts. I can't remember that i have mentally or physically forced you to buy products of another brand, as I also don't like to buy products of another brand myself, which is why i am writing here in this forum. Anyway i am very sorry and will try to become a better and nicer person like you. I think you are right that in the future we all simply should accept any price, quality and feature that Canon has to offer in any of their products. Because any of their upcoming products is better than their old one, which is always more than we can ask for. Technically this whole forum is redundant, as we Canon users all simply just wait for new releases and work with whatever new improvements they have, regardless to the current standards of technology. Life will be much easier if you never question huge corporations, governments etc! Usually they will change to the better by themselves without any pressure, right?

Sorry to see you that you didn't understand a word I wrote. Your sarcasm isn't appreciated especially since you sarcastically responded to points I didn't even make. I won't bother trying to explain further since you clearly aren't interested in dialogue or discussion. I hope you find a way to continue to enjoy photography. Good day to you.

 

[douglaurent]

Someone please should say in which month in history it was more justified than now to criticize Canon for behing behind in features or quality compared to competitors (or spreading good features into too many different expensive products for marketing and sales purposes). And when there has been a time with more Canon pros been willing to move to other brands? To return back to the topic of this forum thread, the specs of the upcoming 5D4 will really be an indicator how far Canon will push their game. It might be the last 5D version in this decade, and when they keep things as they are, they show that it's enough for them to sell photo cameras to 80s/90s traditional style photographers and have little interest in innovation. Their message to the world seems to be: photographers, filmmakers, amateurs and pros - PLEASE don't use the same camera! And PLEASE use your Canon camera for one purpose only - if you have a second or third shooting style interest, PLEASE by a second or third Canon camera! Now if i want to make a hires photo of scenes AND a 4K clip afterwards (for example for stock purposes), i just don't want to switch bodies and lenses 100x a day to do that. Right now i carry a 1DC and a 5DsR and an Atomos Shogun and spent 18.000 bucks for it, just to do the same what Sony users can do from next month on for 3000. I even would spend 6.000-12.000 for a similar solution by Canon, but it is just not in sight.

 

[scyrene]

Someone please should say in which month in history it was more justified than now to criticize Canon for behing behind in features or quality compared to competitors (or spreading good features into too many different expensive products for marketing and sales purposes). And when there has been a time with more Canon pros been willing to move to other brands? To return back to the topic of this forum thread, the specs of the upcoming 5D4 will really be an indicator how far Canon will push their game. It might be the last 5D version in this decade, and when they keep things as they are, they show that it's enough for them to sell photo cameras to 80s/90s traditional style photographers and have little interest in innovation. Their message to the world seems to be: photographers, filmmakers, amateurs and pros - PLEASE don't use the same camera! And PLEASE use your Canon camera for one purpose only - if you have a second or third shooting style interest, PLEASE by a second or third Canon camera! Now if i want to make a hires photo of scenes AND a 4K clip afterwards (for example for stock purposes), i just don't want to switch bodies and lenses 100x a day to do that. Right now i carry a 1DC and a 5DsR and an Atomos Shogun and spent 18.000 bucks for it, just to do the same what Sony users can do from next month on for 3000. I even would spend 6.000-12.000 for a similar solution by Canon, but it is just not in sight.

Has it ever been the case that one camera could do everything? Given pretty much all stills cameras shoot video of some kind means they're more versatile in that regard than anything from the film era. I think the difference is, you're after *the best* of everything. Well I'm afraid no, nobody is offering, will offer, and perhaps *can* offer the *best* of every aspect of photography and videography in one device. It's a bit disingenuous to say Sony's newest thing will do everything. It'll do some things better, some things worse. It's not the Holy Grail.

I happen to love innovation. I only got into photography properly this decade, and it amazes me what's now possible. And I look forward to further innovation. But I *don't* think that there's been a fundamental shift in the last couple of years. My 5D3 is still a top notch camera, producing amazing images (at least, when I'm able to do it justice). Most of what I want to achieve is a matter of time, money, and effort - new lenses, post processing, other kit (astro gear), travel, getting up early, etc. But if I needed a feature that Canon didn't offer, I'd get the device I thought was best from whoever made it. I don't expect one company to provide everything I ever wanted.

Incidentally, it might make you feel better to imagine your venting here is somehow meant to help Canon, but I think they can work out what to do on their own (I imagine they look at sales, talk to professionals and distributors, and use focus groups). I doubt Sony releases products because someone shouted on a web forum, either. By all means, say what you want (everyone here can!), but my original point was I don't understand it. And that was aimed at a lot of people, not just you

 

[douglaurent]

Probably anyone who is a 5D3 user should rent a Pentax 645z or D810 for a week and compare its dynamic range and noise levels. Or shoot a video with a GH4, A7S etc and watch it on a large 4K screen and compare it with a 5D video. In general spend time with a mirrorless camera and focus peaking or cameras with swivel screen, and then go back to a 5D3. Use all the functions that other manufacturers do provide, and Canon also can do, but just spreads over many expensive products or holds back.

So back to the question "Has it ever been the case that one camera could do everything?": No, but in 2015 we are close to it and closer than ever, and Canon is yet far away from it. And it seems without louder user feedback they might continue with their slow progress that theyve been used to in the past decades. Just now the media world has changed and especially pros are under much bigger pressure regarding workflow speed, versatility, price and quality. Some people can't wait until the 5D5 in the year 2020, when they would have needed the features in 2015 - when other manufactures have proven it's possible to have them ready.

 

[TheJock]

Well I am the proud owner of a 5DIII as of today (it's my birthday) so I don't care anymore

 

[candyman]

Well I am the proud owner of a 5DIII as of today (it's my birthday) so I don't care anymore

Double congrats! Enjoy it