Sony A7R on DXO - Highest full frame IQ ever

[CarlTN]

LetTheRightLensIn, you're awfully grumpy today. I understand that you want better DR and such, and yes, Canon is behind Sony (and by virtue, Nikon) in sensor tech, but my point is that DxO's measurements would make you believe that the 5DIII and 1DX are absolute garbage when in fact a huge number of commercial shots are produced with them. Even Nikon's main man, Thom Hogan is making a similar point in his latest blog post:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-full-frame-debate.html

I read the first, what felt like 3000 words of that review. It just seems like he's biased against Nikon full frame sensors, but he seems to be leaving out a lot. I don't feel like wasting my time reading the rest of it.

If this is Nikon's "main man", then something is very very wrong over there. Do they mold their handgrips after him? He must be 6'8'' tall...

And what's up with my earlier post in this thread getting deleted?

 

[Lawliet]

I'm interested to find out how many people in this forum and elsewhere are going to be getting this body specifically to shoot landscape with their Canon glass?

Not exactly landscape, think more fashion, celeb, glamour and such - but perhaps as a low investment backup/plethora of lenses available alternative to the 645+/IQ2. Lets see how well the nice stats and bullet points translate into actual usage...

 

[Aglet]

Nobody cares what the dynamic range and IQ is of an out of focus picture....

FWIW, OOF image reduces DR. A useful technique to use if your DR-limited camera can't handle the scene, make an artfully OOF abstract of it.

 

[JohnDizzo15]

I want to be convinced. It has yet to happen. I would love nothing more than to gather enough data to be convinced that I should in fact lay down my hard earned cheese for the new Sony body.

All I have seen throughout all these threads are people that either have no experience with the Sony sensor, or do via the d800/e but have yet to show samples of anything that exhibits a quality that cannot be had with a dslr from any other company.

I just had a buddy of mine send me a few raw files out of his d800 that were under exposed ISO 100 shots. I will say, what is immediately noticeable is that I definitely had more latitude in bringing out details from the shadows. Was it enough to make me switch? No. Nice to have? Yes. But that 2.7 stops of additional DR doesn't make a significant enough difference to the overall look of images for me to be able to immediately notice that the image came out of a Nikon as opposed to a canon or any other body. What it would equate to in actual usage for me is that I now have more room for error and I don't have to bracket or do HDR in some situations. Not enough for me to constantly cry on the Internet about how the company I have invested in sucks so badly.

This is not to say that there are not people out there that could use maximum resolution and DR. But my suspicion is that many of the people in here as well as the average photog doesn't need it as much as they think they do.

These conversations remind me a lot of listening to a group of overweight cyclists talking about how the set of $2k wheels that shave 4 ounces are so much more awesome than xyz.

 

[zlatko]

The (mostly) anonymous online complaints about Canon's sensors don't stop anyone from making absolutely awesome photos with Canon's sensors in a great variety of circumstances. This is proven day after day by thousands of photographers, including some of the best in the business. When I hear about or meet a photographer whose work I've admired for decades and their main camera today is the 5D3, that tells me a lot more than anonymous complaints on the Internet.

No offense, but this paragraph doesn't really say anything at all.

Then you must not have read it. It counters your claims that:

• "Canon is getting trounced in IQ, period."
• "There's no question it's getting harder and harder to sit and watch these stunning sensor made available as Canon spins tires."

Many skilled photographers are doing just fine with Canon, including some of the best in photography. They can choose any camera but prefer Canon. When you weigh their commercial, editorial, photojournalistic and artistic photography against the posts of sensor critics, it turns out that the sensor critics aren't saying much at all.

You see, for sensor critics, dynamic range is everything. By their standards, it would have been irrational to choose a film like Ektachrome or Velvia over, say, Kodak Gold 200 with its superior 15 stops of DR. Indeed, sensor critics might have shaken their heads at Steve McCurry for ever shooting anything with Kodachrome with its inferior DR. And they might have wondered why Ansel Adams bothered writing a whole book on how to deal with various sensor limitations when he could just have used the stunning Gold 200 and been done!

 

[zlatko]

david noton is shooting with canon... after the the D800 was released i asked him if he is switching back to nikon. i mean as a professionell landscape shooter you must have the D800 or your nothing.. right?

his answer was short: no.

What?! How is that possible? Doesn't he know about the sensor? Doesn't he listen to the sensor critics?

 

[J.R.]

LetTheRightLensIn, you're awfully grumpy today. I understand that you want better DR and such, and yes, Canon is behind Sony (and by virtue, Nikon) in sensor tech, but my point is that DxO's measurements would make you believe that the 5DIII and 1DX are absolute garbage when in fact a huge number of commercial shots are produced with them. Even Nikon's main man, Thom Hogan is making a similar point in his latest blog post:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-full-frame-debate.html

I read the first, what felt like 3000 words of that review. It just seems like he's biased against Nikon full frame sensors, but he seems to be leaving out a lot. I don't feel like wasting my time reading the rest of it.

If this is Nikon's "main man", then something is very very wrong over there. Do they mold their handgrips after him? He must be 6'8'' tall...

And what's up with my earlier post in this thread getting deleted?

Thom Hogan is primarily a Nikon shooter and is usually one of the least biased that I have read - note that he does not usually comment on anything regarding Canon cameras which is why probably he is hardly ever mentioned on CR.

 

[J.R.]

people can make as many excuses or give as many reasons as they want why these results don't matter.
the fact is, if this score was had by a Canon camera, people here would be doing backflips and high fives for weeks.
end of story.

Of course they would but then the sensor alone does not make a camera and the sum total of Canon's system (even with the inferior sensor) is better than the competition.

 

[Dylan777]

I want to be convinced. It has yet to happen. I would love nothing more than to gather enough data to be convinced that I should in fact lay down my hard earned cheese for the new Sony body.

All I have seen throughout all these threads are people that either have no experience with the Sony sensor, or do via the d800/e but have yet to show samples of anything that exhibits a quality that cannot be had with a dslr from any other company.

My tiny RX1 would kick 5D III A** in still shooting...PERIOD.

How often you hear people talk crap about a product that they haven't touch?

 

[Rienzphotoz]

The sensor is great all right. We know that since Nikon has (almost) the same sensor in the D800.

The question here is, great IQ with what lenses? Only two (rather slow) native lenses to speak of and don't get me started on adapters. Even DxO with its myopic "scores" came out with an ultimate assessment that the IQ even with a great sensor will only be as good as the lens you put in front of the camera.

Will this go the way of the D800? With a number of compromises made just for a smaller body, I guess it will sell worse. (People who have wanted the extra MP / DR have already switched to Nikon while those on the DR / MP hobby horse can be found trolling in the CR space)

BTW, I've read that there is no confirmation Sony has microlenses to adjust for the problems with the short flange distance with wide lenses that lead to side to side color problems? Leica does this in its cameras but what about Sony?

I totally agree ... its always amusing when people come up with comments such as "this totally kicks Canon butt" or whatever just because Sony announced 2 mirrorless full cameras with limited lenses ... hello uninformed folk, Canon has a whole eco system that is far beyond anything Sony has ... and what people forget is that Sony has a long history of abandoning entire product lines for better profits (and yet they still run in losses). If this Sony full frame mirrorless camera is good I might eventually buy it., but not because of some DxO scores but because of real world examples and feedback from people who have used it and maybe renting or borrowing it from someone and determining if it fits my needs

 

[J.R.]

I want to be convinced. It has yet to happen. I would love nothing more than to gather enough data to be convinced that I should in fact lay down my hard earned cheese for the new Sony body.

All I have seen throughout all these threads are people that either have no experience with the Sony sensor, or do via the d800/e but have yet to show samples of anything that exhibits a quality that cannot be had with a dslr from any other company.

My tiny RX1 would kick 5D III A** in still shooting...PERIOD.

How often you hear people talk crap about a product that they haven't touch?

Not everyone has the money or the inclination to buy and shoot with a fixed lens FF. That said, I doubt whether given two comparable images one would be able to tell which image is from which camera.

 

[JohnDizzo15]

I want to be convinced. It has yet to happen. I would love nothing more than to gather enough data to be convinced that I should in fact lay down my hard earned cheese for the new Sony body.

All I have seen throughout all these threads are people that either have no experience with the Sony sensor, or do via the d800/e but have yet to show samples of anything that exhibits a quality that cannot be had with a dslr from any other company.

My tiny RX1 would kick 5D III A** in still shooting...PERIOD.

How often you hear people talk crap about a product that they haven't touch?

Not everyone has the money or the inclination to buy and shoot with a fixed lens FF. That said, I doubt whether given two comparable images one would be able to tell which image is from which camera.

Exactly my thoughts and point that I was trying to get at.

Every system has it's pros and cons. I think we can all agree that canon is behind on some level with respect to sensor tech. However, I only wanted to point out the fact that there are lots of people in here making big statements about how bad canon is, or how their IQ is being trounced that probably couldn't identify images taken from one system or the other. The sample image provided by Dylan is a perfect example of that.

 

[MichaelHodges]

Then you must not have read it. It counters your claims that:

• "Canon is getting trounced in IQ, period."
• "There's no question it's getting harder and harder to sit and watch these stunning sensor made available as Canon spins tires."

It didn't counter anything. What you did was provide platitudes in place of specifics. DXO is providing substantial and meaningful specifics with which to engage in modern sensor discussion.

Many skilled photographers are doing just fine with Canon, including some of the best in photography. They can choose any camera but prefer Canon. You see, for sensor critics, dynamic range is everything. By their standards, it would have been irrational to choose a film like Ektachrome or Velvia over, say, Kodak Gold 200 with its superior 15 stops of DR. Indeed, sensor critics might have shaken their heads at Steve McCurry for ever shooting anything with Kodachrome with its inferior DR. And they might have wondered why Ansel Adams bothered writing a whole book on how to deal with various sensor limitations when he could just have used the stunning Gold 200 and been done!

Oh boy. Now we're into logical fallacies up the wazooo. None of this has anything to do with the actual context of this thread.

What is it about DXO that you don't buy into? What can Canon do to catch up in sensor technology?

 

[J.R.]

Then you must not have read it. It counters your claims that:

• "Canon is getting trounced in IQ, period."
• "There's no question it's getting harder and harder to sit and watch these stunning sensor made available as Canon spins tires."

It didn't counter anything. What you did was provide platitudes in place of specifics. DXO is providing substantial and meaningful specifics with which to engage in modern sensor discussion.

Many skilled photographers are doing just fine with Canon, including some of the best in photography. They can choose any camera but prefer Canon. You see, for sensor critics, dynamic range is everything. By their standards, it would have been irrational to choose a film like Ektachrome or Velvia over, say, Kodak Gold 200 with its superior 15 stops of DR. Indeed, sensor critics might have shaken their heads at Steve McCurry for ever shooting anything with Kodachrome with its inferior DR. And they might have wondered why Ansel Adams bothered writing a whole book on how to deal with various sensor limitations when he could just have used the stunning Gold 200 and been done!

Oh boy. Now we're into logical fallacies up the wazooo. None of this has anything to do with the actual context of this thread.

What is it about DXO that you don't buy into? What can Canon do to catch up in sensor technology?

Canon getting trounced in IQ? Even DxO doesn't think so and I'm not sure where you are coming from other than your prejudice -

Given the somewhat lowly-looking pixel count of the Canon EOS 5D Mark III the potential sharpness is, surprisingly, one feature where the camera exceeds expectations. Providing the camera is matched to specific lens models, sharpness can even exceed the Nikon D800 under certain circumstances (when that camera is used with lesser capable lenses). This is great news if you’re looking to invest in one or own one already. If you’re a Canon user and are looking to upgrade, or maybe even switch because of the sensor’s perceived lowly capabilities then this should put your mind at rest.

You can access the entire article here -

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Which-lenses-should-you-choose-for-your-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-vs.-Nikon-D800-Competition-is-closer-than-expected

 

[chilledXpress]

DxOmark just published the full Sony A7r sensor test. And according to their measuresand ranking system the camera scores the same points as the Nikon D800-D800E (and that for $500 less). And it literally kicks the Canon5DIII in the butt.

I have thousands of images from the D800 and from the 5D3, and there is no butt-kicking happening in either direction. While both do a fine job, for me and my work the disadvantages of the D800 outweigh the advantages.

DxO charts are interesting if you are just buying a sensor. But photographers evaluate photos and usability for their tasks more than sensor charts. The sensor is the least interesting thing about the A7/A7r, which looks to be a very interesting camera otherwise.

The (mostly) anonymous online complaints about Canon's sensors don't stop anyone from making absolutely awesome photos with Canon's sensors in a great variety of circumstances. This is proven day after day by thousands of photographers, including some of the best in the business. When I hear about or meet a photographer whose work I've admired for decades and their main camera today is the 5D3, that tells me a lot more than anonymous complaints on the Internet.

Yeah but did ever think that not everyone is in the studio portrait business where you can control the lighting exactly as you wish???


Indeed, I don't give a shite about absolute perfection in sensors or DR. I run a portrait business... and often speak with other colleagues doing the same. Not once has anyone cared about whether you shoot Canon, Nikon, or whatever. It's always more about how the gear performs in the field and if it's more of a hindrance or asset. Todays offerings from the camera world will more than cover the needs of most in the IQ department... missed focus and poor metering though will be a hindrance any day of the week.

I have never taken this thing you call a "Landscape", tell me more my liege, it sounds like some type of sorcery. I'm also confused about the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow and the effect coconuts would have on such a beast.

Love the cherry picking and assumptions... Funny that you think all portraits are taken in a studio with perfect lighting. Let's all jump to conclusions and make assumptions just to prove our points. I can see this thread has caused you pain and you are angry. You deserve the best sensor money can buy, sorry you feel so cheated by Canon... it must be terrrrrrible to live with such inferior gear. You should jump right on this A7r, just check out those numbers or the two next to it.

The fallacy is that there is perfect camera out there, the greener grass. I own Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Leica products. They all have pluses and minuses. They are tools and everyone makes their own decisions about what they need/want. If the perfect sensor is all that matters to you... then every few months dump your current selection, head to DXO and sign up for the newest one on top of the pile. You can then sit in your room, fondle it, take tons of ISO test shots and analyze the results to your hearts desire. That is until the next latest and greatest trashes your precious.

 

[traveller]

I find it hilarious that a DXO Mark report that effectively states the new A7R has the same sensor as the (nearly two year old) D800, has reignited the same tired old tirade that we had back then. If you still haven't made up your mind which system to shoot with, you've expended far to much energy worrying! :

 

[Rienzphotoz]

I find it hilarious that a DXO Mark report that effectively states the new A7R has the same sensor as the (nearly two year old) D800, has reignited the same tired old tirade that we had back then. If you still haven't made up your mind which system to shoot with, you've expended far to much energy worrying! :

Good one

 

[Apop]

I find it hilarious that a DXO Mark report that effectively states the new A7R has the same sensor as the (nearly two year old) D800, has reignited the same tired old tirade that we had back then. If you still haven't made up your mind which system to shoot with, you've expended far to much energy worrying! :

Indeed, but I don't really get the debate...
Unlike with Nikon back then, I doubt people even talk about switching to Sony...
For a canon users this actually is such a great development, those that have been dreaming about a canon high mp body, or a FF mirrorless, this is a chance to get it before christmas, only with a sony badge.

I think for us canon users, if we crave for many MP in small body, I think some reviews on how usable the metabones adapter is would be nice( not speedbooster but just adapter), Thecamerastore tv talks about it for a while, downside bulk and slow af, but it seems to work.

As a current 1dmkiv owner, I am kind of deciding between a 5dIII and a7r for the coming trip
The 5dIII is looking like the one to buy and then sell again after the trip (much less expensive than renting)
It is better at pretty much everything but the MP/size. The big downside to the 5dIII is memory card usage when shooting raw video. It will be a nightmare transfering to laptop every day ( like 200-300gigs minimum ).


A7r seems to have 'ok' video capabilities, but not comparable imo to the 5dIII (even though 1080 60p is nice).
More downsides, is that the metabones adapter is like 650 dollars in my country, which actually makes this package more expensive than a 5dIII... ( a7r+2 batteries,grip and adapter = around 3500$, and you don't even get a lens). Still, using it with a 24-70 for landscapes / 70-200 for frozen wildlife could be a joy.

So rationally the sony is less good and more expensive for what i need a camera for.
Still there is something appealing about that sony, maybe blinded by MP.

 

[Rienzphotoz]

I find it hilarious that a DXO Mark report that effectively states the new A7R has the same sensor as the (nearly two year old) D800, has reignited the same tired old tirade that we had back then. If you still haven't made up your mind which system to shoot with, you've expended far to much energy worrying! :

Indeed, but I don't really get the debate...
Unlike with Nikon back then, I doubt people even talk about switching to Sony...
For a canon users this actually is such a great development, those that have been dreaming about a canon high mp body, or a FF mirrorless, this is a chance to get it before christmas, only with a sony badge.

I think for us canon users, if we crave for many MP in small body, I think some reviews on how usable the metabones adapter is would be nice( not speedbooster but just adapter), Thecamerastore tv talks about it for a while, downside bulk and slow af, but it seems to work.

As a current 1dmkiv owner, I am kind of deciding between a 5dIII and a7r for the coming trip
The 5dIII is looking like the one to buy and then sell again after the trip (much less expensive than renting)
It is better at pretty much everything but the MP/size. The big downside to the 5dIII is memory card usage when shooting raw video. It will be a nightmare transfering to laptop every day ( like 200-300gigs minimum ).


A7r seems to have 'ok' video capabilities, but not comparable imo to the 5dIII (even though 1080 60p is nice).
More downsides, is that the metabones adapter is like 650 dollars in my country, which actually makes this package more expensive than a 5dIII... ( a7r+2 batteries,grip and adapter = around 3500$, and you don't even get a lens). Still, using it with a 24-70 for landscapes / 70-200 for frozen wildlife could be a joy.

So rationally the sony is less good and more expensive for what i need a camera for.
Still there is something appealing about that sony, maybe blinded by MP.

Valid points ... but I don't think you are "blinded by MP", coz there is something about this FF Sony mirror less camera ... as long as Sony is committed to this product line (and does not dump it like some of their products lines) and introduces more smaller sized lenses, they have a winner. What gets me about these mirrorless cameras is the rediculous big lenses that are awkward to hold due to their unbalanced weight factor ... I would like to these companies coming out with more pancake lenses for these mirrorless cameras ... something like the size of EF-M 22mm lens would be awesome, I wouldn't mind buying 6 prime lenses of that size to go with the Sony A7r

 

[neuroanatomist]

I find it hilarious that a DXO Mark report that effectively states the new A7R has the same sensor as the (nearly two year old) D800, has reignited the same tired old tirade that we had back then.

Yet despite all the complaints of Canon standing still on sensor development, no one is blasting Sony for having made effectively zero progress in 2 years.

Oh well, DRoners gonna DRone... :