Sony Sensors Coming to Canon DSLRs? [CR1]

Personally I don't think it will happen. They haven't cared about competing sensors for ages, I don't think they are suddenly going to now. Even though it would be nice sign anyway for them to improve on the sensor areas people are really wanting improved to match the competition.
 
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Bennymiata said:
To be frank, I just want a great camera for what I normally do, and I would like more dr etc with my 5D3, and if their next model uses a Sony sensor, so what?

As long as the camera is good to use, makes great images and I can use my L lenses on it, I'll buy it, when I'm ready for a change.

Even IF Sony goes bust, I'm sure that Canon or someone else will buy the sensor division and continue supply.
Buying some sensors from Sony could be a real advantage (Sony dr etc with Canon colours, lenses and ergonomics) and give Canon some breathing room to develop the next big thing in sensors.

+1
 
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no just no i rather Canon make their own Sony equivalent sensor and then Sony will have to make something better and so on competition will make a better sensor then even what Sony has now. I can not see why Canon one of the companies with the most patents can't come up with something better then their current sensors, only thing i can think of is the cost of development/production.

Would i buy a 5D4 with a Sony sensor? hell yea i don't give a crap about brands, product has to be good that's all that matters.
 
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emko said:
no just no i rather Canon make their own Sony equivalent sensor and then Sony will have to make something better and so on competition will make a better sensor then even what Sony has now. I can not see why Canon one of the companies with the most patents can't come up with something better then their current sensors, only thing i can think of is the cost of development/production.

Would i buy a 5D4 with a Sony sensor? hell yea i don't give a crap about brands, product has to be good that's all that matters.
+1
 
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I wonder why do from time to time CR begins to make storms out of nothing. I presume when the visitors stats begin to go down he brings an old topic just for the sake of a few tech geeks to comment around and say old crap in a new way.

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jrista said:
Marauder said:
I think it would be a mistake for them to surrender chip design--both for Canon and for the users. There needs to be MORE sensor competition--not less.
+1, totally agree! Canon just needs to actually compete on the larger format sensor front. I really hope they do next year...
I do agree as well. However they would need "a-pair-of-good-old-MF-L-lenses". And we have seen 0 patents so far.

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thetechhimself said:
Check this guy out...
http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/?lang=en&Itemid=815

2 Years old article the outlines what we see today (Sony making sensors for Nikon, and now some of Canon) and points to tomorrow.

It's not economical these days for most companies to continue mfg their own silicon as with the fierce competition and constant upheaval of processes to stay competitive results in huge tool and die costs, which is what a CMOS sensor is, silicon. Global Foundaries, Samsung, Intel and others now dominate this market. Canon's 0.5 process is ancient, Canon knows this and will likely choose another fab to make their designs, or use someone else's designs but put their software or spin on the final result. I anticipate quantum leaps in Canon specs in the next 1-2 years as such. Look at what Canon did with Sony's 20MP sensor? 50 points better on the ISO processing with their DIGIC algorithms plus accurate color rendition and better UI.

Well, while true so far we know Canon IS using old-school 0.5 they are also employing new tech (although a later than others, but definitely not bad) like DualPixel.

And I wonder how do you make a home-grown in-house tech go out to you competitors to produce it?
Or you just don't - and that makes you look like everybody else.


So in conclusion: Am I getting this wrong? Or CR Webmaster is just making non-sense?

Canon Rumors said:
I have received this information a few times over the years, but nothing has never come to fruition, so I’ve never lent much credence to it... It’s definitely possible, but I wouldn’t write it in stone yet.
Why bother then writing now?

I leave it to you to judge on your own.
 
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One shouldn't expect Dual Pixel sensors manufactured by Sony. No way.
So probably Canon will manufacture most of their FF bodies with own, home-manufactured sensors and use only Sony sensor for a special high quality (DR, high resolution) body. That makes a lot of sense because high resolution Dual Pixel FF sensor (being effectively 2 x 46 MPix sensor) would generate enormous stream of data that would need processing not only for stills but also video (scaling, denoising etc.) and AF (dual pixel, CDAF).
 
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jasny said:
One shouldn't expect Dual Pixel sensors manufactured by Sony. No way.
So probably Canon will manufacture most of their FF bodies with own, home-manufactured sensors and use only Sony sensor for a special high quality (DR, high resolution) body. That makes a lot of sense because high resolution Dual Pixel FF sensor (being effectively 2 x 46 MPix sensor) would generate enormous stream of data that would need processing not only for stills but also video (scaling, denoising etc.) and AF (dual pixel, CDAF).

+1

If this camera turns out to be the 3D I'm assuming it will cost more than the 5D4, which will hopefully be less than $3500. If 5D4 was $4000+ I don't think it would sell that well?
 
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dilbert said:
jasny said:
One shouldn't expect Dual Pixel sensors manufactured by Sony. No way.

If Canon handed back to Sony a variation of Sony's design with Canon's DPAF then why not?

They wouldn't even have to do that. I don't think there's anything amazingly complex about dual-pixel from a design and fabrication point of view. I'm pretty sure Sony would already be selling chips with DPAF capabilities if they didn't have to work around Canon's patents.
 
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Diko said:
I wonder why do from time to time CR begins to make storms out of nothing. I presume when the visitors stats begin to go down he brings an old topic just for the sake of a few tech geeks to comment around and say old crap in a new way.

Consider: This website is not called Canon News.

- A
 
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LOL...I wrote these replies yesterday afternoon but forgot to submit. Oops! Oh well...

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dash2k8 said:
If this were true, I think it's a good thing for us. Canon sensors have been lacking in innovation for a while while Sony sensors have made huge advancements in what's possible. I like it.

"You keep using that word inconceivable innovation. I do not think it means what you think it means." :P

If you mean low ISO dynamic range, huge megapixel counts or a radical new sensor design, okay. In my book, though, DPAF is clearly in the "innovation" category.

Don Haines said:
yes.... wait until the tech has matured to the point where the average user can't tell the difference... put lots of research into things like DPAF and bring it to market.... move your sensors to a more modern fabrication line... and throw it all away to let the competition control your destiny...... not bloody likely!

I tend to agree.

I personally hope Canon keeps its high-end sensor production in-house. If the rumor somehow is true, and Canon uses some Sony sensors in DSLRs, I highly doubt Canon would cease development of its own DSLR sensor technology. Sony is not exactly the most solvent company out there. I suspect that Canon would only use a Sony sensor A) As an interim measure while refining development/production of a Canon-made equivalent/superior sensor, or B) Because Canon is fully prepared to acquire Sony's sensor division.

On the bright side, maybe Canon could solve the greenish color cast of the Nikon/Sony sensors. :P
 
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Does Canon need better sensors? Yes.

When did Canon Cameras center totally around the sensor alone? The camera is more than the sensor and Canon's package around that sensor is top notch. The 1DX is still the best sports camera made. The 5Diii is still a great camera. It is all the technologies surrounding the sensor that make a Canon camera a Canon.

Canon using a Sony sensor will not change this fact. Look at Nikon as they have take the a7r sensor and put a better package around it.

Who cares! Just give me a better sensor wrapped in a Canon package. 2015 will determine my next major camera purchase to add to my list. Right now, my money is on an a7rii.
 
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Diko said:
Canon Rumors said:
I have received this information a few times over the years, but nothing has never come to fruition, so I’ve never lent much credence to it... It’s definitely possible, but I wouldn’t write it in stone yet.
Why bother then writing now?

I leave it to you to judge on your own.
I think you missed the point of this forum. It is called rumors for a reason. Wouldn't be much talk here if it only reported things written in stone. I think its interesting to hear peoples ideas and just maybe from time to time some Canon people will visit to see what we want them to improve.
 
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Diko said:
I wonder why do from time to time CR begins to make storms out of nothing. I presume when the visitors stats begin to go down he brings an old topic just for the sake of a few tech geeks to comment around and say old crap in a new way.

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jrista said:
Marauder said:
I think it would be a mistake for them to surrender chip design--both for Canon and for the users. There needs to be MORE sensor competition--not less.
+1, totally agree! Canon just needs to actually compete on the larger format sensor front. I really hope they do next year...
I do agree as well. However they would need "a-pair-of-good-old-MF-L-lenses". And we have seen 0 patents so far.


I don't mean medium format sensors. Just larger sensors. APS-C and FF are larger, by quite a margin, than the ultra high volume market, which uses sensors a fraction the size of a fingernail most of the time. People don't realize how much larger APS-C and FF sensor are...many times larger. I consider that "larger format". Medium format is a whole different game, and that is not what I'm referring to.
 
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Famateur said:
"You keep using that word inconceivable innovation. I do not think it means what you think it means." :P

If you mean low ISO dynamic range, huge megapixel counts or a radical new sensor design, okay. In my book, though, DPAF is clearly in the "innovation" category.

It's certainly an interesting approach, but in my mind, innovation is more than just doing something in a new way. Innovation is defined by the "aha" moment where the advantages to the new approach are immediately so obvious that you can't imagine having done it the old way.

The thing is, Fuji showed the first compact camera with on-die phase detection AF back in 2010. Canon has been playing catch-up ever since. Yes, DPAF has an advantage over dedicated focus pixels in that you don't lose the light that would otherwise fall on half of certain pixels, though that difference will matter less and less as resolution increases—but DPAF still feels more like a way to work around Fuji's on-sensor phase detection patents while still achieving the same benefits, rather than true innovation.

If Canon wants folks like me to see them as still innovating in the area of sensors, they should:

  • Start with a backside illumination design.
  • Etch both sides of the sensor, with vias for every pixel.
  • Put per-pixel buffers on the reverse side of the sensor die, thus giving you a true global shutter.
  • Put a sizable heat sink on the reverse side of the sensor to dissipate the heat from the back-side buffers, thus reducing thermal noise.
  • Use one or more on-die ADC circuits for maximum accuracy and minimum noise.
  • Take advantage of the global shutter to eliminate dynamic range limitations and remove the need for setting ISO values entirely.

That last one is the jaw dropper. The benefits of a global shutter for video are obvious. The benefits for stills are even bigger, though, and I don't think anybody is really taking advantage of that yet, which seems bizarre to me.

The entire reason image sensors have limited dynamic range is twofold: because the ADC can provide only a certain number of bits of precision, and because when the full-well capacity of a pixel is exceeded, that pixel cannot hold any more photons. However, if you can get the read noise levels low enough, you can just sample the pixels several times per exposure, and sum the results in a wider register. You can then make clever use of Huffman coding or run-length encoding to minimize the impact of all those extra zeroes, and you'll be able to accurately reproduce everything from a single photon all the way up to the brightest light.

That would be innovation. Real innovation changes things in ways that are jaw-dropping and earth-shattering. Using DPAF to do automatic AFMA might do that, and using DPAF to correct the slightly-off phase detect focusing results after the mirror goes up might do that, but DPAF by itself doesn't do that, IMO. DPAF is clever, but it is far from pushing the limits of technology.

Just my $0.02.
 
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jasny said:
One shouldn't expect Dual Pixel sensors manufactured by Sony. No way.
So probably Canon will manufacture most of their FF bodies with own, home-manufactured sensors and use only Sony sensor for a special high quality (DR, high resolution) body. That makes a lot of sense because high resolution Dual Pixel FF sensor (being effectively 2 x 46 MPix sensor) would generate enormous stream of data that would need processing not only for stills but also video (scaling, denoising etc.) and AF (dual pixel, CDAF).
.... You said it all by yourself:
... would generate enormous stream of data that would need processing not only for stills but also video...
That means that they would have to use DIGIC CPUs sensors with DPAF (CANON sensor tech). That means they can't be SONY.


dgatwood said:
They wouldn't even have to do that. I don't think there's anything amazingly complex about dual-pixel from a design and fabrication point of view. I'm pretty sure Sony would already be selling chips with DPAF capabilities if they didn't have to work around Canon's patents.
+1

DWM said:
I think you missed the point of this forum. It is called rumors for a reason. Wouldn't be much talk here if it only reported things written in stone. I think its interesting to hear peoples ideas and just maybe from time to time some Canon people will visit to see what we want them to improve.
No - I did not. Yes it is NOT a stone. Quite correct. And yet this rumor is old as Canon MF. I wonder when will be next speculation about the old rumor about it ;-)

As for Canon reading what is going on here on this forum... You must have been reading some of my previous post here. ;-)
 
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