Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800

LightandMotion said:
This is exactly what I have done for landscapes. My Canon EF glass on the A7R. The dynamic range is better than my 1dx. Hopeless for sports and wildlife, but no one wants 36MP for that.
The samples posted here and elsewhere of the A7R with 24-70II and TS-E lenses are very impressive. Also, I wouldn't mind 36MP for wildlife as I have made very large prints of some of my bird portraits in the past :)
 
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3kramd5 said:
sagittariansrock said:
I believe the lack of a high MP camera in Canon's lineup reflects still-developing technology rather than lack of interest in the market.

Or they decided to do the hard thing (refreshing a large portion of their lens lineup) before doing the relatively easy thing (increasing pixel density in a single body). As has been noted numerous times, both the optics and the electronics net the effective system resolution, hence the 5D3 + lenses resolving better on average than the D800 + lenses.

Either way, people would be clamoring. I kinda suspect that if they had instead just crapped out a full frame camera with 7D-sized pixels and people only saw marginal IQ gains (albeit with large, unwieldy files) due to the unavailability of sufficiently good glass, the clamoring would be louder. But you never know.

Don't forget that DxO usually tests lenses at near wide open!
Who says you can't use a sharp lens stopped down for landscapes or a nice sharp tele for wildlife and get a lot of advantage? The 7D has higher density than the D800 and people seem to get plenty of good use out of it for wildlife.

Also there is the issue of low ISO DR, it's not just MP. And bringing that is NOT necessarily easier than making new lenses at all.
 
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poias said:
Nobody needs 36 mp! At most, we post at 1000x700. So, around 0.5 to 1 mp should be enough for most.

I see a lot of people starting to post at 1600 across now.

And now UHD/4k monitors are out!
8MP on screen at once. Believe me 8MP image on those screens looks WAY better than expanding a 1MP!

And don't forget cropping for wildlife (or sports). You can always use more reach for wildlife.
 
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Mt Spokane Photography said:
100 said:
Jglaser757 said:
I've waited a long time for Nikon to recapture the lead on Nikon and their 36 mp camera. And now I read that Nikon will introduce an upgrade to the 800e in June. Why am I not jumping ship? I do have a lot of canon glass and have been a local customer. I own the mk III and 6d and I love the images .BUTT, COME ON ALREADY cCanon. Get your stuff together!

Why does Nikon need to upgrade the D800e if Canon has nothing to compete with it?
Maybe it’s not the big seller the “I want more megapixel crowd” think it is.
The funny thing is that a lot of Nikon users are asking for a true successor to the D700 (less megapixels, more fps, smaller files).

Yes, I bought a D800, and files that open to 125 - 150 MB are no fun to edit. Its hard to imagine what editing a 200 - 250 MB file would be like.


The files open so large due to the huge amount of noise in any image over about ISO 800. NEF is a compressed file, but they are uncompressed in order to edit them. I tried editing 1500 shots that I took at high ISO over a couple of nights. I had to use a ton of NR on them, and that took minutes per image to run.

I sold the D800 and bought a 5D MK III, it is much better for high ISO photography. The D800 is great at ISO 200, assuming that you buy lenses that can resolve the high MP, and that you use a tripod or very fast shutter speed. Its difficult to actually get the high resolution possible, many users do not and giv up.


125-150MB files from a D800???
I don't see others saying that the D800 is bad at high iso, at least not unless you are getting into crazy 12,800+. Both viewed at 100% it shows a bit more noise, but viewed to the same scale it has similar SNR and tighter 'grain', although it does start getting worse DR once you get to the very high ISOs and a scene at ISO6400+ might start looking worse if it has extensive areas near black.
 
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LetTheRightLensIn said:
I don't see others saying that the D800 is bad at high iso...

I've read a number of reviews (in print and online) that indicate that the D800 starts to fall apart once you get above ISO 800-1600.

Fact is, there is no free lunch and there is no magical way to get the ISO performance of an 18-22 mp sensor out of 36 mp. That's why Nikon and Canon use less dense sensors for their flagships and why the new Sony A7s has a paltry 12 mp.

High resolution, High ISO, Low Noise – you can pick two but you can't have all three. That's been discussed thoroughly here and can be seen in the reviews and samples.
 
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dilbert said:
unfocused said:
LetTheRightLensIn said:
I don't see others saying that the D800 is bad at high iso...

I've read a number of reviews (in print and online) that indicate that the D800 starts to fall apart once you get above ISO 800-1600.

Fact is, there is no free lunch and there is no magical way to get the ISO performance of an 18-22 mp sensor out of 36 mp. That's why Nikon and Canon use less dense sensors for their flagships and why the new Sony A7s has a paltry 12 mp.

High resolution, High ISO, Low Noise – you can pick two but you can't have all three. That's been discussed thoroughly here and can be seen in the reviews and samples.

The rumor states that the new D800 will have one stop better noise performance...

I'll wait for the reviews.
 
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My next camera body for landscapes may just be a high megapixel body:

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.uk/en/medium-format-digital/PENTAX-645-Z.html

Not much more than the 1D X when I purchased it. Of course I'll have to build up the lenses over time. Given that the sensor appears to be the same Sony sensor that Phase One and Hasselblad are just coming out with in camera backs that are megabucks, it should make high quality medium format "affordable" (relatively speaking).
 
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unfocused said:
I've read a number of reviews (in print and online) that indicate that the D800 starts to fall apart once you get above ISO 800-1600.

I don't agree and I use D800/e bodies.
you can get perfectly usable shots at 1600 & 3200 with very little NR required so it's nowhere near "falling apart" at 800. I don't even bother with NR at 800 and it's still good at a per-pixel level.

otherwise..
As for the constant comments on superiority of Canon glass, what's the point of it until there's a more capable EOS body to put it on? Did no one here bother to look at the lens tests for D800e on DxOmark?
There's a good many lenses capable of rendering more MP than Canon has theoretical ones and you can mount them on a D800e .

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Best-lenses-for-the-Nikon-D800E-The-sharpest-full-frame-camera-ever-measured/Best-DxOMark-sharpness-rankings

e.g. The flyweight Nikon 70-200 f/4 VR is capable of stunning resolution, handheld, a few stops below the usual 1/FL rule as well. A little technique and decent glass can get a lot of MP out of these bodies, if needed, and the sensor performance in other areas is still top-of-class.

Truly good and unique Canon glass, like the TS series, are better adapted for use on Sony A7 bodies.

Canon has, for years, been a letdown for those hoping for improved sensor performance and-or resolution.
I was one of those people but, with little patience, I found better options, went there, and have enjoyed the benefits of that decision since 2012. I don't have time to waste on Canon-HOPE.
 
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Jglaser757 said:
I've waited a long time for Nikon to recapture the lead on Nikon and their 36 mp camera. And now I read that Nikon will introduce an upgrade to the 800e in June. Why am I not jumping ship? I do have a lot of canon glass and have been a local customer. I own the mk III and 6d and I love the images .BUTT, COME ON ALREADY cCanon. Get your stuff together!

the D800 update is marginal.. so what?

if you complainers really need more MP and more details.. buy MF... i have.
 
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I don't think the sentiment expressed here on CR is representative of the overall market - at least here in the UK.

Going by professional dealerships - not just the likes of ebay - used Nikon D700 are selling for the same price as the much more modern 24 mp D600. That's 12 mp to 24 mp. There are a surprising amount of used D800 for sale, and perhaps not a surprising amount of D600 - given the oil splatter issue.

From a practical point of view, what I'm seeing so far is that if you really need to be over about 24 mp you need to be on a larger format.
 
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Aglet said:
Canon has, for years, been a letdown for those hoping for improved sensor performance and-or resolution.

For years, Canon had the highest resolution FF dSLR sensor, and for years after that, only Nikon's D3X offered slightly higher resolution, if you could afford a $7K camera. So really, you mean for two years Canon has been behind on resolution.

As for sensor performance, the argument has been beaten to death. For scenes that absolutely require another 1.5-2 stops of DR, but no more than that, Canon sensors aren't optimal. If you need to push the exposure 4-5 stops in post, to get the best possible image of a barbecue next to a shed or an awning on a Stockholm street, Canon is not optimal. But for most purposes, the only 'letdown' is in the minds of a tiny minority of users. Most of us understand that the image sensor is part of a system, and is not the only component that contributes to capturing images.
 
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Lightmaster said:
Jglaser757 said:
I've waited a long time for Nikon to recapture the lead on Nikon and their 36 mp camera. And now I read that Nikon will introduce an upgrade to the 800e in June. Why am I not jumping ship? I do have a lot of canon glass and have been a local customer. I own the mk III and 6d and I love the images .BUTT, COME ON ALREADY cCanon. Get your stuff together!

the D800 update is marginal.. so what?

if you complainers really need more MP and more details.. buy MF... i have.

I wish I could afford MF,,I should of done it years ago..But I their is economics and loyalty involved here,,,especially when I have 5 canon lens, a 5dmk III and a 6d ,not to mention other canon accessories.

And when you want to print to 40x60, its an issue..36 Mp would give that edge i needed. I should have jumped to nikon when the 800e came out,,but I didn't because I was convinced Canon would not sit idly bye trying to figure out how to recapture the glory days of the 5D Mk II.. That was a great camera at the time!!
 
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eml58 said:
It's an interesting situation, why have Canon not to date followed through with a higher MP Body ?? it's a little like "what's the meaning of life".

The decision to amalgamate the 1D/1Ds lines in the 1Dx was in my opinion a bad call on the future Market by Canon (albeit I think the 1Dx is a wonderful Camera Body), I just don't think their Marketing People clearly saw the Market need for a higher MP Camera (or they did, and simply weren't able to match technologies with Nikon/Sony), they got that wrong, and now they need some catch up time in designing a Sensor that approaches what the Market wants, and is comparable, better, than the Nikon 36MP sensor, and more recently the Sony 36MP sensor, and now, the Sony 50MP sensor that is finding it's way into the Haselblad, Phase One etc, and in particular the about to be released Pentax 645z.

I gotta flip this on ya = while a big MP offering may be something canon should have, using the 1 series isn't the best to start. Nikon has it's niche camera, but when it came time to refresh the D4, did we see a huge leap in MP's? Nope, under 20 MP's, which makes sense for both (1d and d4) because they are geared towards sports shooting which DOES favor higher frame rates over MP's (things like buffer size come to mind...)
 
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dilbert said:
unfocused said:
LetTheRightLensIn said:
I don't see others saying that the D800 is bad at high iso...

I've read a number of reviews (in print and online) that indicate that the D800 starts to fall apart once you get above ISO 800-1600.

Fact is, there is no free lunch and there is no magical way to get the ISO performance of an 18-22 mp sensor out of 36 mp. That's why Nikon and Canon use less dense sensors for their flagships and why the new Sony A7s has a paltry 12 mp.

High resolution, High ISO, Low Noise – you can pick two but you can't have all three. That's been discussed thoroughly here and can be seen in the reviews and samples.

The rumor states that the new D800 will have one stop better noise performance.

If they deliver on that then it will be better than the 5D3.

yes, that's fine and dandy, unless you already plopped down your $$$ for the now old d800. If i were a nikon user I'd not like that at all! In fact, if I were a nikon user I'd feel like why are you yanking my chain? Not everyone, even working pros has that kind of $$ to throw around on bodies every year or 2. If I were a nikon guy, I'd rather they had just waited and put out the right d800 which would last on the market for 3-4 years.
 
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Brett Hull said:
can anyone explaine why Canon has no high Mp FF camera as Nikon
Brett

Can you explain why Canon should have such a camera? The 5DIII is outselling the D800.

A wedding photographer I know asked for a recommendation on the D800, and was told she'd be better off with the D600 – that advice was given by Nikon Professional Services.
 
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Just wanted to add my two cents to the struggle. The Mpx fight seems to be an endless debate, nevertheless, I am always surprised to see people who seem to decide what is good for others. More resolution will always be wanted, that doesn't mean it's always needed. Saying that more pixel is useless is just nonsense; it might be useless for you, but some folks need more resolution for different matters. I am old enough to have worked with film for a good while, and in the good old times, everyone was trying to switch to the newest film because of it's better sharpness and finer grain. Some jobs needed better resolution than others, a press photographer could deal with small format (24x36), while fashion required medium format and advertising large format view cameras; nobody would discuss if 4x5 format was useful or not. It's like asking Ansel Adams if he really needed to shoot 8x10 sheet film.

Nowadays, things have changed a bit, since all DSLR outresolve easily small format, and the only thing that is still out of reach is the large format (minimum 4x5) cameras. On the other hand, most people only watch their pictures on screens, so for that purpose, most DSLR are overkill.

But that doesn't mean that there isn't a demand for higher quality. My work is architecture, landscape and interiors, where every pixel available is required. These jobs were previously done ideally with large format view cameras, one of the domains were DSLR cannot still compete.

One of the option is to put a digital back on a view camera, but we talk about 30 to 50k budgets here, plus they are extremely awkward to use in the field. The cheapest modern medium format back is worth 20k for 40-50MPx resolution, so the idea of getting 36 Mpx for 1/10th of the cost makes perfect sense.

Sure not everyone needs that, as a hobbyist, if you take pictures of the dog in the garden to show on facebook, it's just plain ridiculous, but for lot of working pros with budget limitation, the Sony 36Mpx sensor is plain gold, whether you are a Nikon user (D800) or for us Canonists in the form for now of the Sony A7r / metabones combination. The Sony has the immense advantage of "opening" the system, and to get rid of the dependence to one lens/camera brand.

You like it or not, the Sony sensor is more advanced than anything Canon is able to put on the market. It's one thing that you are perfectly happy with your equipment (or for some that you rage about the inability from Canon to design a competitive sensor for now), but it is another one to say that nobody needs better. I can read that lots of people here use their camera hand held, focus with AF and make extensive use of high ISOs. For this use, a 1Dx, 5D3 or 6D make perfect sense; in my case, I use a tripod 99% of the time, very seldom use more than 400 ISO, and focus manually since 75% of my work is done with TS-E lenses.

I could easily say : "why the hell do people need 150 points AF, 12Fps and 12800 ISO"?. I don't, because I know some folks shoot different things than I do, use different technique and simply have different needs. So maybe it's time to admit that other people may need more than the average 20Mpx than Canon can offer us nowadays.

It's not because you don't need it than no one does. I work with a 5D2 and I've reached the limits of its sensors, some of my clients would like (need) more, but the 50k digital view camera option is not a realistic financial option in my case. Fact is that Canon has nothing better to offer for my needs than my 5 years old 5D2. So the option will likely be the Sony / metabones combination. There is no shame here, and I consider myself lucky that Sony is offering an alternative.

When I shoot for pleasure, I use a Linhof 4x5 camera with Schneider lenses, and the digital files I get from my Canon simply look ridiculous compared to a well scanned 4x5.

A more careful a way to put it would be to ask in what case more resolution is needed, instead of assuming that what is good for you is enough for all. To finish, I do not agree with the idea that the D800 (or A7r) are niche products; they are not for everyone, and have not been designed as all-round cameras. Nikon has the D600 and Sony the vanilla A7 for that purpose, but that doe not make them niche cameras, simply specialized ones (ask pro fashion and beauty photographers if their Hasselblads are niche cameras). I think it is just different approaches, Canon wants every camera to be an all-rounder, but doing that, they have pushed away specialized users. Nikon or Sony make different cameras for different uses, and I am betting that the new Sony A7s will be extremely successful with videographers, though as well a specialized camera.
 
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There's an awful lot of angst on this thread about what Nikon is doing with the D800. From what I can see, it is a mid-life refresh designed to reduce costs by consolidating the D800 and D800e into a single model, combined with a few extra goodies to boost sales at the soft point in the cameras life cycle.

I can't see the point of dredging up the same old arguments that were had on this forum two years ago; either the D800(e) appealed enough back then that you sold your Canon glass and jumped ship, or it didn't and you bought the 5D MkIII or decided to wait a generation. What would a D800s change in this whole equation? Were people seriously thinking that Canon would replace the 5D MkIII on a two year life-cycle?
 
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