Still waiting for high MP canon while Nikon is coming out with new 800

[Chuck Alaimo]

the thing I find the most funny is that where talking about this because nikon messed up and made 2 bodies that essentially do the same thing and now have to consolidate those 2 into 1 body totally screwing all those who bought either body over....

meh, it's not totally screwing anyone over. Everyone who bought the D800 knew what they were getting. Likewise with the D800E. Chances are many of them have netted some spectacular images with them over the past couple years. Nikon releasing a marginally better model doesn't affect anything excepting maybe resale value.

Well, I guess if your used to a company that updates high end stuff too quickly then no, it isn't screwing folks over it's just good training to never buy their new products because it'll just be upgraded within 2 years anyways.

Ok, what of the huge amount of D700 users who wanted a D3 lite replacement?
The D700 was Nikons best performing DSLR in terms of sales by a long long way and far out sold the replacement D800. There was literally half the wedding market selling all their Canon kit and going with Nikon because of that particular camera. When the D800 was released, their only option was to buy a mint S/H D700 or pay nearly double ($4K) for the D4. These buyers genereally need two DSLR bodies...that's $8K!!! There were a lot of really irratated pros and semi pros who no longer had a viable replacement path...they were effectively abandoned by Nikon. The D800 was a fine camera but certainly not a D700 mkII.

Meanwhile back in Canon land, the 5DIII was released keeping all their existing user base happy with a clear and logical replacement plan. Which left a lot of Nikon users pretty green with envy and angry / frustrated with their brand choice. Some even migrated back again. Most pros / semi pros have a three year cycle of camera buying. After which the DSLR is in a pretty shabby state (most nikons have all the rubber falling off by then) and need to be replaced on the reliability factor alone. One of my 5DIII's is up for renewal early next year. If I bought a 1DX, i'd move that camera to a 5 year cycle instead of three.

+100 --- that's what I was talking about!!!!

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

the thing I find the most funny is that where talking about this because nikon messed up and made 2 bodies that essentially do the same thing and now have to consolidate those 2 into 1 body totally screwing all those who bought either body over....

meh, it's not totally screwing anyone over. Everyone who bought the D800 knew what they were getting. Likewise with the D800E. Chances are many of them have netted some spectacular images with them over the past couple years. Nikon releasing a marginally better model doesn't affect anything excepting maybe resale value.

Well, I guess if your used to a company that updates high end stuff too quickly then no, it isn't screwing folks over it's just good training to never buy their new products because it'll just be upgraded within 2 years anyways.

Waiting for the next best thing in the electronics industry is a losing game.

Buy what you need/want/can afford when you need/want/can afford it, and don't worry if x months down the road there is a better version, because that's a near guarantee.

never said we should be "waiting for the next best thing." This is why I actually like Canon's mindset with gear refreshing. Put it on a reasonable time table so that by the time the next thing comes around, it fits in nicely with most of our own purchasing cycles. the 5d3 came out and now it's used and we as users aren't worrying about Canon throwing us for a loop with a 5d3a or something silly like that (like ---if canon said, fixed the DR issue, here's a new 5d3 with more fps greater dynamic range and no banding at base ISO).

Releasing new gear on a more paced out schedule allows us to do what you said, because we know what we have and we know the replacement will be in 3-4 years - not 2, or even 1. Like i said, I would be rather frustrated with nikon right now if I were on that side of the fence. First, wow, have to choose between 2 d800's, then came the flop that was the d4, followed by the d4s (great camera unless you shelled out a ton of $$$$ on the d4

 

[3kramd5]

the thing I find the most funny is that where talking about this because nikon messed up and made 2 bodies that essentially do the same thing and now have to consolidate those 2 into 1 body totally screwing all those who bought either body over....

meh, it's not totally screwing anyone over. Everyone who bought the D800 knew what they were getting. Likewise with the D800E. Chances are many of them have netted some spectacular images with them over the past couple years. Nikon releasing a marginally better model doesn't affect anything excepting maybe resale value.

Well, I guess if your used to a company that updates high end stuff too quickly then no, it isn't screwing folks over it's just good training to never buy their new products because it'll just be upgraded within 2 years anyways.

Ok, what of the huge amount of D700 users who wanted a D3 lite replacement?
The D700 was Nikons best performing DSLR in terms of sales by a long long way and far out sold the replacement D800. There was literally half the wedding market selling all their Canon kit and going with Nikon because of that particular camera. When the D800 was released, their only option was to buy a mint S/H D700 or pay nearly double ($4K) for the D4. These buyers genereally need two DSLR bodies...that's $8K!!! There were a lot of really irratated pros and semi pros who no longer had a viable replacement path...they were effectively abandoned by Nikon. The D800 was a fine camera but certainly not a D700 mkII.

Meanwhile back in Canon land, the 5DIII was released keeping all their existing user base happy with a clear and logical replacement plan. Which left a lot of Nikon users pretty green with envy and angry / frustrated with their brand choice. Some even migrated back again. Most pros / semi pros have a three year cycle of camera buying. After which the DSLR is in a pretty shabby state (most nikons have all the rubber falling off by then) and need to be replaced on the reliability factor alone. One of my 5DIII's is up for renewal early next year. If I bought a 1DX, i'd move that camera to a 5 year cycle instead of three.

+100 --- that's what I was talking about!!!!

Sure, maybe Nikon screwed its wedding professional base by not adequately replacing the D700 (the D600 kinda does, but at a significantly higher resolution).

But quickly refreshing the D800 is entirely independent of that lack of market entry. The introduction of the D800S in no way plays into what GMC noted. It isn't a D700 replacement either, and they're still looking at either two D4-level cameras or finding mint D700s.

 

[3kramd5]

the thing I find the most funny is that where talking about this because nikon messed up and made 2 bodies that essentially do the same thing and now have to consolidate those 2 into 1 body totally screwing all those who bought either body over....

meh, it's not totally screwing anyone over. Everyone who bought the D800 knew what they were getting. Likewise with the D800E. Chances are many of them have netted some spectacular images with them over the past couple years. Nikon releasing a marginally better model doesn't affect anything excepting maybe resale value.

Well, I guess if your used to a company that updates high end stuff too quickly then no, it isn't screwing folks over it's just good training to never buy their new products because it'll just be upgraded within 2 years anyways.

Waiting for the next best thing in the electronics industry is a losing game.

Buy what you need/want/can afford when you need/want/can afford it, and don't worry if x months down the road there is a better version, because that's a near guarantee.

never said we should be "waiting for the next best thing." This is why I actually like Canon's mindset with gear refreshing. Put it on a reasonable time table so that by the time the next thing comes around, it fits in nicely with most of our own purchasing cycles. the 5d3 came out and now it's used and we as users aren't worrying about Canon throwing us for a loop with a 5d3a or something silly like that (like ---if canon said, fixed the DR issue, here's a new 5d3 with more fps greater dynamic range and no banding at base ISO).

Releasing new gear on a more paced out schedule allows us to do what you said, because we know what we have and we know the replacement will be in 3-4 years - not 2, or even 1. Like i said, I would be rather frustrated with nikon right now if I were on that side of the fence. First, wow, have to choose between 2 d800's, then came the flop that was the d4, followed by the d4s (great camera unless you shelled out a ton of $$$$ on the d4

I guess I just put a little responsibility on the consumer. If the D800 offers what you need, get it. If it doesn't, don't get it, or return it. Same goes for the D4. Nikon isn't withdrawing money from your account and then mailing you a camera. Did they make some blunders? Sure.

Can most people afford to refresh bodies every two years? No. So don't get the S. If Nikon waited another year to release the S, would it change anything? Not for previous D800/E owners. On the other hand, if they recognize flaws in their products, and refrain from releasing a ready-to-go replacement, that absolutely screws anyone who will purchase the old version between the time the replacement is ready and the time it is released. Remember, not everyone buys things immediately at market entry.

Anyway, this is silly and tangential, so I'll bow out.

 

[Loswr]

On the other hand, if they recognize flaws in their products, and refrain from releasing a ready-to-go replacement, that absolutely screws anyone who will purchase the old version between the time the replacement is ready and the time it is released.

*cough* SB910. D610. *cough*

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

the thing I find the most funny is that where talking about this because nikon messed up and made 2 bodies that essentially do the same thing and now have to consolidate those 2 into 1 body totally screwing all those who bought either body over....

meh, it's not totally screwing anyone over. Everyone who bought the D800 knew what they were getting. Likewise with the D800E. Chances are many of them have netted some spectacular images with them over the past couple years. Nikon releasing a marginally better model doesn't affect anything excepting maybe resale value.

Well, I guess if your used to a company that updates high end stuff too quickly then no, it isn't screwing folks over it's just good training to never buy their new products because it'll just be upgraded within 2 years anyways.

Waiting for the next best thing in the electronics industry is a losing game.

Buy what you need/want/can afford when you need/want/can afford it, and don't worry if x months down the road there is a better version, because that's a near guarantee.

never said we should be "waiting for the next best thing." This is why I actually like Canon's mindset with gear refreshing. Put it on a reasonable time table so that by the time the next thing comes around, it fits in nicely with most of our own purchasing cycles. the 5d3 came out and now it's used and we as users aren't worrying about Canon throwing us for a loop with a 5d3a or something silly like that (like ---if canon said, fixed the DR issue, here's a new 5d3 with more fps greater dynamic range and no banding at base ISO).

Releasing new gear on a more paced out schedule allows us to do what you said, because we know what we have and we know the replacement will be in 3-4 years - not 2, or even 1. Like i said, I would be rather frustrated with nikon right now if I were on that side of the fence. First, wow, have to choose between 2 d800's, then came the flop that was the d4, followed by the d4s (great camera unless you shelled out a ton of $$$$ on the d4

I guess I just put a little responsibility on the consumer. If the D800 offers what you need, get it. If it doesn't, don't get it, or return it. Same goes for the D4. Nikon isn't withdrawing money from your account and then mailing you a camera. Did they make some blunders? Sure.

Can most people afford to refresh bodies every two years? No. So don't get the S. If Nikon waited another year to release the S, would it change anything? Not for previous D800/E owners. On the other hand, if they recognize flaws in their products, and refrain from releasing a ready-to-go replacement, that absolutely screws anyone who will purchase the old version between the time the replacement is ready and the time it is released. Remember, not everyone buys things immediately at market entry.

Anyway, this is silly and tangential, so I'll bow out.

LOL...mind you I did say "if" I was a nikon user i'd be pissed. i am not so I can just say thank god the 5d3 6d combo suits my needs.

With that said though - the d800 was supposed to be the follow up to the d700 - the d600 was meant to be an entry level FF option. But, and who knows on this one - nikon either had to use the 36 mp sensor because sony said you have to, or, nikon had such a case of MP envy that they went over the top on it. Nikon had a large user base of d700 users that were waiting for a mk2 of that body - that user base was a lot of wedding togs who just said screw it and kept their d700's, bought d3s's or bought then sold d800's. The d600 is a gimped d800, much like the 6d is a gimped 5d3 - the d600 is not the d700 successor. So again, if I were a nikon wedding shooter, yeah I'd be a little pissed off ----luckily I am not!

 

[bosshog7_2000]

Wow...

I guess I'm late to this topic but had to laugh at all the ridiculous comments. First of all...it's funny how many on here 'don't need' the pixels from the D800...sounds awfully like the Nikon crowd when the 5D2 was first announced. Secondly, the D800/D800E sensor is one of the best out there today...period. Even if you don't 'need' the resolution it still offers better dynamic range than your 5D3.

Count me in as a loyal Canon customer who is tired of waiting for the answer to the D800. I'm still slugging away with my 5D2 until such time as Canon catches up in their sensor design...which I'm sure they will at some point.

 

[timcz]

I am quite confident that when this new camera does come to the table, i will definitely want it, but definitely wont need it. As I mentioned previously, id love a few extra mp, but the expanded DR and shadow detail like on the 800 is what i'd really like.

Having said that though, I have seen what people like Ryan Dyar, Sean Bagshaw, Chip Phillips etc can do with the gear that I own, and until I can do something like that, I dont think I deserve an upgrade!

 

[Harry Muff]

Is this one still going?

 

[Aglet]

On the other hand, if they recognize flaws in their products, and refrain from releasing a ready-to-go replacement, that absolutely screws anyone who will purchase the old version between the time the replacement is ready and the time it is released.

*cough* SB910. D610. *cough*

don't forget a few recent Canon products causing people allergic or other skin reactions to poor quality materials.

 

[R1-7D]

Nikon has completely given in to the whims of customers in protecting shadows (because we all know the importance of exposing shadows to the point that they are no longer shadows) but that sacrifices highlights at the other end of the spectrum.
Canon focuses on just the opposite, but according to the masses they do not capture as much shadow detail in giving you that greater range in highlights.

Technically, in the scope of capturing light, once the upper end of the spectrum is blown - it is gone - and therefore should be the end protected the most. However the average photographer (aptitude or numerical demographic) has been made to believe that broad dynamic range in the areas of a photo that you were not intended to see (shadows) is the most important part of photography.

 

[100]

On the other hand, if they recognize flaws in their products, and refrain from releasing a ready-to-go replacement, that absolutely screws anyone who will purchase the old version between the time the replacement is ready and the time it is released.

*cough* SB910. D610. *cough*

don't forget a few recent Canon products causing people allergic or other skin reactions to poor quality materials.

If your product is seriously flawed you have to admit it as soon as possible, recall the product, fix it for free and change your production line so the new ones don’t have the same flaw.

That’s what Canon did with the light leak in the 5D Mk III http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/support/consumer?pageKeyCode=prdAdvDetail&docId=0901e02480538fc7 and Nikon should have done with the oil spatter problem of their D600. I realize the light leak was a much easier (cheaper) fix than replacing the shutter but it doesn’t depend on the size of the mistake a company makes.

Nikon however decided to ignore and/or deny customer complaints even when they knew the problem was real. They left their D600 customers in the cold, started working on a D610 and hoped to get away with it, but they underestimated the power of social media and the reputation damage it can do. It took them until February 2014 (the D600 is a 2012 camera, the D610 was introduced on the 8th October 2013) to give a “service advisory” http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Service-And-Support/Service-Advisories/hs309y82/Technical-Service-Advisory-for-Users-of-the-Nikon-D600-Digital-SLR-Camera.html but they still didn’t admit to their mistakes.

In the end it took the Chinese government (they ordered Nikon to stop selling the D600) to get an excuse out of Nikon. That happened on March 28, 2014 (18 months after introduction and 5 months after the introduction of the D610) http://www.nikon.com/news/2014/0328_01.htm

 

[100]

Nikon has completely given in to the whims of customers in protecting shadows (because we all know the importance of exposing shadows to the point that they are no longer shadows) but that sacrifices highlights at the other end of the spectrum.
Canon focuses on just the opposite, but according to the masses they do not capture as much shadow detail in giving you that greater range in highlights.

Technically, in the scope of capturing light, once the upper end of the spectrum is blown - it is gone - and therefore should be the end protected the most. However the average photographer (aptitude or numerical demographic) has been made to believe that broad dynamic range in the areas of a photo that you were not intended to see (shadows) is the most important part of photography.

I haven’t seen any evidence Canon sensors recover substantially more highlights than the Sony EXMOR sensor.
Can you provide a link to any evidence for that claim?

The better low ISO dynamic range of Sony EXMOR isn’t needed in a lot of situations, but it is in some and therefore nice to have. The human eye has an even greater dynamic range so we are “intended to see” shadow detail. It can be an artistic choice not to show it though.
The point is you can reduce the dynamic range of a high dynamic range sensor if you want to in post, but you can’t expand the dynamic range beyond what a sensor is capable of capturing.

 

[Loswr]

On the other hand, if they recognize flaws in their products, and refrain from releasing a ready-to-go replacement, that absolutely screws anyone who will purchase the old version between the time the replacement is ready and the time it is released.

*cough* SB910. D610. *cough*

don't forget a few recent Canon products causing people allergic or other skin reactions to poor quality materials.

Way to miss the point... :

Did Canon rapidly release a new product for which the main 'upgrade' was to correct those flaws? No, they initiated a recall and fixed the affected products. Did Canon let problems with a product escalate to a point where the most populous nation in the world banned sale of the product in their country? *cough* D600 *cough*

 

[Ivan Muller]

I have used Canons all of my photography life, I am quite happy with the results, have no major complaints...and I don't plan to switch.... because I have already invested a pretty penny

all I know is that I look with longing eyes at the the Sony A7R....( and sometimes the D80OE )

and dream up all sorts of ways of how I am going to fit my EF lenses on those bodies...

Because somehow I have lost a bit of faith in Canons will and/or ability to make something similar...

 

[sanj]

Somebody give our favorite guru Neuro some cough syrup. He seems to be suffering.

 

[Sella174]

all I know is that I look with longing eyes at the the Sony A7R....( and sometimes the D80OE )

and dream up all sorts of ways of how I am going to fit my EF lenses on those bodies...

Sony A7r + Metabones adapter = QED.

 

[Sella174]

I have looked very hard at Canon before I ultimately decided to invest in another system. My conclusion was that Canon cannot really produce a "High-MP" camera (or a decent mirrorless camera) for the very simple reason that the DiG!C processor has hit the wall.

 

[3kramd5]

My conclusion was that Canon cannot really produce a "High-MP" camera (or a decent mirrorless camera) for the very simple reason that the DiG!C processor has hit the wall.

Just once digic5+ is good for at least 180MB/sec (5D3 raws at 6FPS). Given Moore's "law," it would shock me if something like the core logic chip fundamentally precludes higher-resolution cameras.

 

[Sella174]

Just once digic5+ is good for at least 180MB/sec (5D3 raws at 6FPS). Given Moore's "law," it would shock me if something like the core logic chip fundamentally precludes higher-resolution cameras.

That's the transfer rate of data, i.e. throughput, of already processed data. What is important is the number of instructions per second that the little guy can do ... and then how many instructions are required to process the data from the sensor's A/D-converter. Not stuff that Canon gives out readily, but it can be deduced from current camera models.