The day of the anti-climatic announcement

[Loswr]

[quote author=CanonWatch]DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…

MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.

http://www.canonwatch.com/interview-with-canons-tian-rong-makoto-7d-ii-not-a-story-of-the-day-so-far/

Maeda said the 7D successor would incorporate a certain number of innovative technologies. He said they would not be putting out a product "with merely better specs", but instead "one that has evolved into new territory."

Guess it depends on how you interpret that whether the product will be anticlimactic or not. It could be considered that 65pt AF, 20.2mp sensor, and DPAF is "incorporating a number of innovative technologies." It could also be considered that those new technologies are "merely better specs."

What is the definition of a product that has "evolved into new territory?" DPAF isn't new, and neither is 20.2mp. A 65pt AF might be new, although it does sound a lot like the 61pt AF system...it would be "evolution" rather than "revolution." Overall, none of the rumored improvements really seem to take the 7D II into a "new area" per-se...but, it's still all just rumors.

Whole thing is still exceptionally vague.

Timing is everything, so allow me to clarify yours. The interview you quote was from January 2013. The 70D was announced six months later, in July 2013. DPAF was not known publicly at the time of the interview, and I'd certainly say that DPAF constitutes an evolution into new territory.

Alright, fair point.

However, given how far after both the 7D II is coming...DPAF IS known publically, and Canon has already evolved into new territory with it (and with the 20.2mp sensor.) One would also have to assume that Maeda is intelligent enough to know that the 70D, which was clearly already in the pipeline and planned for release, would be "evolving into new territory" with DPAF...thereby taking the that particular feature out of the running for the 7D II, at least as far as new territory goes.

So maybe the timing between the interview and the 70D release is off. Does it actually change the core point of my previous point?

If the point with the 7D II was to take that particular line into new territory, to not mere give it a bump up in feature specs, but make it something new and innovative...does reusing most of what the 70D brought to the table, and maybe dropping in a slightly evolved 1D X AF unit and meter...really achieve that goal? I'm not going to say it goes against what Maeda stated...he said the 7D II would "evolve into new territory"...so no one should really be expecting radical things with the 7D II.

All I am saying is...if people ultimately see the 7D II release as "anticlimactic"...I would understand. It doesn't sound like it's going to be bringing any major new technological innovations to the table, unless there is something particularly amazing and new about the 65pt AF system. It'll probably be like the 5D II-5D III upgrade. The whole package deal together, a complex of features combined, makes it a larger leap from the prior model....but no single feature will really stand out as being truly amazing or unknown or new.
[/quote]

I think what he said, subject to the vagaries of translation, is consistent with the 70D representing some of the evolution.

Your final point is quite likely to be the case. Evolution ≠ revolution.

People build stuff up in their mind, based on hearsay, conjecture, and rumor. That's a sure fire way to be disappointed later.

We all know that every time Canon announces a new body, there's much whining and complaining. The only point I see to this thread is someone wants the whining and complaining to start even earlier. We call that type of someone a troll.

 

[jrista]

We all know that every time Canon announces a new body, there's much whining and complaining. The only point I see to this thread is someone wants the whining and complaining to start even earlier. We call that type of someone a troll.

Heh, I agree. Starting a thread for the purpose of complaining "early" is quite trollish.

Well, what, two more days before NDAs are lifted? Won't be long.

 

[Tugela]

[quote author=CanonWatch]DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…

MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.

http://www.canonwatch.com/interview-with-canons-tian-rong-makoto-7d-ii-not-a-story-of-the-day-so-far/

Maeda said the 7D successor would incorporate a certain number of innovative technologies. He said they would not be putting out a product "with merely better specs", but instead "one that has evolved into new territory."

Guess it depends on how you interpret that whether the product will be anticlimactic or not. It could be considered that 65pt AF, 20.2mp sensor, and DPAF is "incorporating a number of innovative technologies." It could also be considered that those new technologies are "merely better specs."

What is the definition of a product that has "evolved into new territory?" DPAF isn't new, and neither is 20.2mp. A 65pt AF might be new, although it does sound a lot like the 61pt AF system...it would be "evolution" rather than "revolution." Overall, none of the rumored improvements really seem to take the 7D II into a "new area" per-se...but, it's still all just rumors.

Whole thing is still exceptionally vague.
[/quote]

Revolutionary would imply that the new camera would allow us to do what we couldn't before (either the 7D or any other camera).

What is described in the rumored specs doesn't meet that test, so it isn't revolutionary. A camera like the GH4 is revolutionary. A camera like the a7s is revolutionary. A camera like the 7D was revolutionary. A camera like the 5D3 was revolutionary. Even the 70D was revolutionary. What is being described for the 7D2 so far is not. And therein lies the problem, but we shall see in a few days, hopefully

 

[jrista]

[quote author=CanonWatch]DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…

MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.

http://www.canonwatch.com/interview-with-canons-tian-rong-makoto-7d-ii-not-a-story-of-the-day-so-far/

Maeda said the 7D successor would incorporate a certain number of innovative technologies. He said they would not be putting out a product "with merely better specs", but instead "one that has evolved into new territory."

Guess it depends on how you interpret that whether the product will be anticlimactic or not. It could be considered that 65pt AF, 20.2mp sensor, and DPAF is "incorporating a number of innovative technologies." It could also be considered that those new technologies are "merely better specs."

What is the definition of a product that has "evolved into new territory?" DPAF isn't new, and neither is 20.2mp. A 65pt AF might be new, although it does sound a lot like the 61pt AF system...it would be "evolution" rather than "revolution." Overall, none of the rumored improvements really seem to take the 7D II into a "new area" per-se...but, it's still all just rumors.

Whole thing is still exceptionally vague.

Revolutionary would imply that the new camera would allow us to do what we couldn't before (either the 7D or any other camera).

What is described in the rumored specs doesn't meet that test, so it isn't revolutionary. A camera like the GH4 is revolutionary. A camera like the a7s is revolutionary. A camera like the 7D was revolutionary. A camera like the 5D3 was revolutionary. Even the 70D was revolutionary. What is being described for the 7D2 so far is not. And therein lies the problem, but we shall see in a few days, hopefully
[/quote]

I wouldn't necessarily call the 70D revolutionary. The DPAF technology in the 70D wasn't really even revolutionary...it was an evolutionary improvement on previous PDAF technology. It is actually very difficult to create something that is truly revolutionary, when you get down into the details. Very few things are going to be "revolutionary" in the camera industry. The 5D III was a MAJOR improvement over the 5D II, however relative to the whole market...it wasn't necessarily revolutionary. It got many of the things it required to remain a competitive DSLR line, and it inherited most of those improvements from other cameras that were previously released. The 61pt AF system came from the 1D X. The iFCL metering came from the 7D. The sensor inherited improvements originally designed, not even for the 1D X, but I believe the 1D C.

I don't even know that I'd call the A7s revolutionary. It uses extensive in-camera processing to reduce noise. That was actually done by Canon with DIGIC 6, long before BionzX came out. Canon used the technology in pretty low-end devices, and therefor it did not really make many waves...but Canon started doing much of what BionzX is doing long before Sony did.

The only thing I would call truly revolutionary was the design of Exmor itself. It was a rather radical departure from conventional sensor design. The massive reduction in read noise it achieved (even in high-grade scientific CCD sensor design, read noise less than ~5e- is VERY rare, practically unheard of)...to have 3e- RN at ISO 100 is phenomenal!

Some would even argue that Exmor isn't even revolutionary, but that it was evolutionary, and cobbled together concepts and ideas from prior art. CP-ADC wasn't invented by Sony, it was actually described in papers years before. I think the amalgamation of CP-ADC and DCDS, along with moving the high-frequency clock to a remote die location, packaging the whole entire thing onto a single die with a purely digital readout system, was ultimately Sony's invention...but even the great Exmor could still be considered an evolution on top of previously devised concepts.

The 5D III (taken as a whole, the sum of all it's improvements), and Exmor, are probably the only two still photography camera improvements in recent years that I think legitimately qualify for the term "revolutionary."

I doubt the 7D II will be considered the same, if most of it's technology is not really new.

 

[Tugela]

[quote author=CanonWatch]DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…

MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.

http://www.canonwatch.com/interview-with-canons-tian-rong-makoto-7d-ii-not-a-story-of-the-day-so-far/

Maeda said the 7D successor would incorporate a certain number of innovative technologies. He said they would not be putting out a product "with merely better specs", but instead "one that has evolved into new territory."

Guess it depends on how you interpret that whether the product will be anticlimactic or not. It could be considered that 65pt AF, 20.2mp sensor, and DPAF is "incorporating a number of innovative technologies." It could also be considered that those new technologies are "merely better specs."

What is the definition of a product that has "evolved into new territory?" DPAF isn't new, and neither is 20.2mp. A 65pt AF might be new, although it does sound a lot like the 61pt AF system...it would be "evolution" rather than "revolution." Overall, none of the rumored improvements really seem to take the 7D II into a "new area" per-se...but, it's still all just rumors.

Whole thing is still exceptionally vague.

Timing is everything, so allow me to clarify yours. The interview you quote was from January 2013. The 70D was announced six months later, in July 2013. DPAF was not known publicly at the time of the interview, and I'd certainly say that DPAF constitutes an evolution into new territory.

Alright, fair point.

However, given how far after both the 7D II is coming...DPAF IS known publically, and Canon has already evolved into new territory with it (and with the 20.2mp sensor.) One would also have to assume that Maeda is intelligent enough to know that the 70D, which was clearly already in the pipeline and planned for release, would be "evolving into new territory" with DPAF...thereby taking the that particular feature out of the running for the 7D II, at least as far as new territory goes.

So maybe the timing between the interview and the 70D release is off. Does it actually change the core point of my previous point?

If the point with the 7D II was to take that particular line into new territory, to not mere give it a bump up in feature specs, but make it something new and innovative...does reusing most of what the 70D brought to the table, and maybe dropping in a slightly evolved 1D X AF unit and meter...really achieve that goal? I'm not going to say it goes against what Maeda stated...he said the 7D II would "evolve into new territory"...so no one should really be expecting radical things with the 7D II.

All I am saying is...if people ultimately see the 7D II release as "anticlimactic"...I would understand. It doesn't sound like it's going to be bringing any major new technological innovations to the table, unless there is something particularly amazing and new about the 65pt AF system. It'll probably be like the 5D II-5D III upgrade. The whole package deal together, a complex of features combined, makes it a larger leap from the prior model....but no single feature will really stand out as being truly amazing or unknown or new.

I think what he said, subject to the vagaries of translation, is consistent with the 70D representing some of the evolution.

Your final point is quite likely to be the case. Evolution ≠ revolution.

People build stuff up in their mind, based on hearsay, conjecture, and rumor. That's a sure fire way to be disappointed later.

We all know that every time Canon announces a new body, there's much whining and complaining. The only point I see to this thread is someone wants the whining and complaining to start even earlier. We call that type of someone a troll.
[/quote]

No, the reason for starting the thread is to draw attention to the looming announcements, which will not only be about the 7D2. There are lots of other goodies probably coming as well.

The 7D2 one will probably be less than originally expected, hence the thread title. It is a joke, which some of you are apparently too serious to get . But there are other things as well, and that is something for all us to look forward too, even if it is just to get some idea of Canon's direction.

 

[Tugela]

[quote author=CanonWatch]DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…

MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.

http://www.canonwatch.com/interview-with-canons-tian-rong-makoto-7d-ii-not-a-story-of-the-day-so-far/

Maeda said the 7D successor would incorporate a certain number of innovative technologies. He said they would not be putting out a product "with merely better specs", but instead "one that has evolved into new territory."

Guess it depends on how you interpret that whether the product will be anticlimactic or not. It could be considered that 65pt AF, 20.2mp sensor, and DPAF is "incorporating a number of innovative technologies." It could also be considered that those new technologies are "merely better specs."

What is the definition of a product that has "evolved into new territory?" DPAF isn't new, and neither is 20.2mp. A 65pt AF might be new, although it does sound a lot like the 61pt AF system...it would be "evolution" rather than "revolution." Overall, none of the rumored improvements really seem to take the 7D II into a "new area" per-se...but, it's still all just rumors.

Whole thing is still exceptionally vague.

Revolutionary would imply that the new camera would allow us to do what we couldn't before (either the 7D or any other camera).

What is described in the rumored specs doesn't meet that test, so it isn't revolutionary. A camera like the GH4 is revolutionary. A camera like the a7s is revolutionary. A camera like the 7D was revolutionary. A camera like the 5D3 was revolutionary. Even the 70D was revolutionary. What is being described for the 7D2 so far is not. And therein lies the problem, but we shall see in a few days, hopefully

I wouldn't necessarily call the 70D revolutionary. The DPAF technology in the 70D wasn't really even revolutionary...it was an evolutionary improvement on previous PDAF technology. It is actually very difficult to create something that is truly revolutionary, when you get down into the details. Very few things are going to be "revolutionary" in the camera industry. The 5D III was a MAJOR improvement over the 5D II, however relative to the whole market...it wasn't necessarily revolutionary. It got many of the things it required to remain a competitive DSLR line, and it inherited most of those improvements from other cameras that were previously released. The 61pt AF system came from the 1D X. The iFCL metering came from the 7D. The sensor inherited improvements originally designed, not even for the 1D X, but I believe the 1D C.

I don't even know that I'd call the A7s revolutionary. It uses extensive in-camera processing to reduce noise. That was actually done by Canon with DIGIC 6, long before BionzX came out. Canon used the technology in pretty low-end devices, and therefor it did not really make many waves...but Canon started doing much of what BionzX is doing long before Sony did.

The only thing I would call truly revolutionary was the design of Exmor itself. It was a rather radical departure from conventional sensor design. The massive reduction in read noise it achieved (even in high-grade scientific CCD sensor design, read noise less than ~5e- is VERY rare, practically unheard of)...to have 3e- RN at ISO 100 is phenomenal!

Some would even argue that Exmor isn't even revolutionary, but that it was evolutionary, and cobbled together concepts and ideas from prior art. CP-ADC wasn't invented by Sony, it was actually described in papers years before. I think the amalgamation of CP-ADC and DCDS, along with moving the high-frequency clock to a remote die location, packaging the whole entire thing onto a single die with a purely digital readout system, was ultimately Sony's invention...but even the great Exmor could still be considered an evolution on top of previously devised concepts.

The 5D III (taken as a whole, the sum of all it's improvements), and Exmor, are probably the only two still photography camera improvements in recent years that I think legitimately qualify for the term "revolutionary."

I doubt the 7D II will be considered the same, if most of it's technology is not really new.
[/quote]

Well, every "new" tech is going to come from something that existed in one form or another. The main thing is how the product it is integrated into is used. Perhaps elements of what was in those other cameras already existed somewhere else, but it is the application that represents the revolutionary step, not the tech itself.

 

[Loswr]

[quote author=CanonWatch]DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…

MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.

http://www.canonwatch.com/interview-with-canons-tian-rong-makoto-7d-ii-not-a-story-of-the-day-so-far/

Revolutionary would imply that the new camera would allow us to do what we couldn't before (either the 7D or any other camera).

What is described in the rumored specs doesn't meet that test, so it isn't revolutionary. A camera like the GH4 is revolutionary. A camera like the a7s is revolutionary. A camera like the 7D was revolutionary. A camera like the 5D3 was revolutionary. Even the 70D was revolutionary. What is being described for the 7D2 so far is not. And therein lies the problem, but we shall see in a few days, hopefully
[/quote]

Sorry, I missed where someone from Canon said the 7D successor would be "revolutionary". Could you point that out, please?

 

[cnardo]

Sept 5th ...........in what time zone?....... and at midnight???, ....... or at 8am??? ....or high noon???

 

[Aglet]

Hmmm.. this could be considered evolutionary.
They could go with ML tech and the DPAF system but expand AF system function like this:

- Joystick to move AF area wherever you want
- control wheel to make active AF area whatever size you want
- maybe even without a mirror in the way, increasing fps and reducing vibration would mean slightly increased sharpness possible
- add a hybrid viewfinder that overlays the selected AF location and size (AF area shape could be an option too)
- Mirror-up operation with hybrid EVF display of image + info overlays.

This could make for a very flexible and usable AF and metering system while still being a "DSLR."

So many interesting things could be done..
will be interesting to see what actually escapes, er, get's released.

And please, for the love of DRones, dat sensu betta be betta big time!

 

[Don Haines]

Sorry, I missed where someone from Canon said the 7D successor would be "revolutionary". Could you point that out, please?

Revolutionary is in reference to the mode dial. It will revolve all the way around.... Hence "revolutionary"....

 

[RickWagoner]

SONY is about to drop Something that has never done before..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-first-pictures-of-the-ilce-qx1-e-mount-camera/


The 7D2 better be one amazing piece or it won't get much talk.

 

[Loswr]

SONY is about to drop Something that has never done before..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone.

Yet they never stopped to ask why...

This is just an ILC mount version of older thingamabobs they launched a while back. I expect this will be even less popular.

SONY: "Because we can."

 

[Random Orbits]

SONY is about to drop Something that has never done before..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-first-pictures-of-the-ilce-qx1-e-mount-camera/


The 7D2 better be one amazing piece or it won't get much talk.

A friend expressed interest in this. He had used their previous version and liked the idea of it. I asked why when it is so much more unwieldy. His answer: it's more portable than it looks, but, mostly, because he can than edit it (i.e. Instagram) and post immediately. Is that a better workflow than having a WiFi capable camera and transferring the files to a phone/computer? I have no idea, but then I don't have a smartphone either, so I'm usually carrying the DSLR or EOS-M most places anyway.

 

[Don Haines]

SONY is about to drop Something that has never done before..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-first-pictures-of-the-ilce-qx1-e-mount-camera/

Ergonomics are passé...

 

[Mitch.Conner]

SONY is about to drop Something that has never done before..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone.

Yet they never stopped to ask why...

This is just an ILC mount version of older thingamabobs they launched a while back. I expect this will be even less popular.

SONY: "Because we can."

Maybe, but did you see you can get a QX10 in Pink and Gold now? LOL. I thought those were silly when I first saw them in black and silver. I guess they've sold acceptably though if they're making these clip on phonetography accessories in different focal lengths and colors now.

 

[Steve Balcombe]

Active ingredients
Truth ................................... 100%

Since when has truth been effective against trolls?!

 

[raptor3x]

SONY is about to drop Something that has never done before..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-first-pictures-of-the-ilce-qx1-e-mount-camera/

Ergonomics are passé...

If you've held an A7/R/S for more than 30 minutes before you'd probably think that was becoming Sony's motto.

 

[jrista]

SONY is about to drop Something that has never done before..A DSLR sensor you use with your phone.

Yet they never stopped to ask why...

This is just an ILC mount version of older thingamabobs they launched a while back. I expect this will be even less popular.

SONY: "Because we can."

I agree with this. If your going to buy a camera, might as well buy a camera. Otherwise just use the one built into the phone...that;s kind of the whole point of phone cameras: Ultimate convenience, no extra cost.

 

[MichaelHodges]

SONY: "Because we can."

That's what science is.

I prefer a go-getter attitude rather than one that dismisses developments in favor of status quo.

 

[jrista]

SONY: "Because we can."

That's what science is.

I prefer a go-getter attitude rather than one that dismisses developments in favor of status quo.

It's a little more complex than that. At least, the way I see it. There are useful innovations, and there are frivolous innovations. There are finite R&D budgets, and I think it's important that companies invest money where there is long term growth value. You can invest lots of little pools of money in a lot of experimental products, many of which (the majority of which, most likely) are going to fail...resulting in a lot of waste in the end. Or, you can invest in a few product lines that really pique the customers interest, then focus on those lines and refine them over time. Maybe add a new product periodically as the market shows a clear demand for it.

There is certainly a fine balance. Canon is conservative, Sony and Nikon are not. The former is probably too conservative these days, holding back on innovations that should slingshot them back into the competitive foreground. The latter two seem to take a bit of a shotgun approach...jam out a whole ton of products and see which ones stick. Or, crank out some niche products with various groups of features, see which ones stick, then iteratively refine over a lot of shorter product cycles. (The former runs the risk of being very costly when products fail, the latter runs the risk of pissing off customers who only recently purchased your very expensive prior product become unhappy when a new and improved version is released too quickly.)

Camera companies aren't scientific companies per-say. They are commercial companies in business to make money and sell products.