There may be a higher-end APS-C mirrorless announced in late 2020, early 2021 [CR2]

Danglin52

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I agree. For what they would want to charge for it and the size to make it weather sealed, rugged, etc., it really doesn't "fit" the M Series line very well. I can see it as an R series and few or NO APS-C lenses in RF mount ever made for it. Just assume owners will use full frame RF mount lenses or adapt older APS-c lenses.

Many of the lenses I use on my 7Dii (and all of the better glass such as 100-400L, 70-200L, 300L) are full frame.
I think this is the most likely approach for Canon. I don’t think they would do more than 24-26mpx in order to better control high ISO. I never liked the ISO of 7d/7dII and I owned both cameras. The build and functions were great, but I never liked the high ISO performance.
 
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Michael Clark

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I just can't see them doing an APS-C EOS R camera. The mount is huge and they would have to make dedicated crop lenses, when they already exist for the M mount.

I own the M6ii and it's great. If they made the viewfinder built-in, gave it IBIS, maybe a bigger battery, and gave it true native or downsampled 4k it'd be incredible.

What they need is some quality M zooms. Like an 18-55 f2.8, or an 18-105 f4, and then a 400+.

I can't see Canon ever making EF-M lenses larger than the same diameter that every single EF-M lens they make currently is. It's been eight years. If they were going to make a lens more than 61mm in diameter, they'd have done it by now.

I can't see them making any EOS-M bodies that are larger than the M5.

I see Canon as building the entire M-series ecosystem around the idea of a small, affordable camera with compact lenses for non-professionals/non-enthusiast buyers who want a camera that is easy to take with them when they want more than what their smartphones can do.
 
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CanonFanBoy

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Here's what I would do if I were Canon:

* The new 1.6x crop sensor body uses the existing R mount and for sake of argument let's assume it will be called a RS camera.
* It can use any RF (FF) lens, using the 1.6x crop of the image circle.
* It can use any EF (FF) lens, using various EF-to-RF adaptors and a 1.6x crop of the image circle.
* It can use any new R (1.6x crop) lenses they might make, and for sake of argument let's say they're called RS lenses.
* It can use any EF-S (1.6x crop) lens, using new various new EF-S-to-RS adaptors.
* IF they can make a EF-M-to-RS-teleconverter (which may or may not be possible as the teleconverter must extend the flange distance of the EF-M lens by 2mm + depth of converter metal mount - but hey - they are Canon) then it can use any EF-M lens with a new crop factor.

* The RF (FF) body can already use any EF (FF) lens with various EF-to-RF converters.
* The RF (FF) body can use new RS lenses in 1.6x crop mode.

In addition (in case anybody wanted to do it):
* A RF (FF) body could use any EF-S lens in crop mode with new adapter.
* IF EF-M-to-RS-teleconverter works, the RF (FF) body could use any EF-M lens with a new crop factor.

Hence their future of FF is RF, and the future of 1.6x crop is RS, and they're all interchangeable on the R mount. Everybody, y'all bring your existing lenses and join the R party - All hail Canon! :ROFLMAO:

If I made some glaring mistake, please let me know. I'm not a Canon expert, and am only thinking "outside the box" and I suppose it's possible I'm so far outside that I "fell off the table" :ROFLMAO:
I see no point in RF-s lenses for a "high end" apsc body. I started out with EF-s bodies and lenses. When I was starting out, I mistakenly believed that an Ef-s lens at 50mm focal length was exactly the same framing as using a 50mm EF lens on a ff. It isn't. It's just a cheaper lens, but not always. They both frame the same on a crop sensor body. Once I figured that out, I only bought EF lenses. It isn't as though Canon is going to make super-tele lenses specifically for a crop sensor body. Never have. The new "cheap" f/11 super-tele lenses are squarely in the FF camp. An APS-C body makes sense for people who want the high density sensor for their birding or sports, or whatever.. APS-C lenses do not make any sense at all. Just my opinion. APS-C lenses offer no path at all to a FF upgrade. They are a dead end.On the other hand, a crop sensor R body makes complete sense.
 
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Danglin52

Wildlife Shooter
Aug 8, 2018
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334
I agree. For what they would want to charge for it and the size to make it weather sealed, rugged, etc., it really doesn't "fit" the M Series line very well. I can see it as an R series and few or NO APS-C lenses in RF mount ever made for it. Just assume owners will use full frame RF mount lenses or adapt older APS-c lenses.

Many of the lenses I use on my 7Dii (and all of the better glass such as 100-400L, 70-200L, 300L) are full frame.
I think this is the most likely approach for Canon. I don’t believe they would do more than 24-26mpx in order to control high ISO. I never liked the ISO of 7d/7dII and owned both Cameras. I never used EF-S lenses and don’t remember seeing them on 7d’s in the field.
 
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Michael Clark

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Someone posted a video on one of the R5/R6 threads of an interview and there was the implication that the R6 was actually a replacement(mirrorless version might be a better description) of both the 6d2 AND the 7d2

Except the R6 is nowhere near an equivalent for the 7D Mark II the way that most 7D Mark II owners used them.

It doesn't have the pixel density that 7D Mark II users want/need.

It doesn't have the top grade magnesium alloy body and highest level weather sealing that the 7D Mark II has.

It does might have fast handling capability, depending upon how well the lower than top grade EVF can handle sports/action/birds.

It does have a 300,000 shutter durability rating that 7D Mark II users will value.
 

CanonFanBoy

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I think this is the most likely approach for Canon. I don’t believe they would do more than 24-26mpx in order to control high ISO. I never liked the ISO of 7d/7dII and owned both Cameras. I never used EF-S lenses and don’t remember seeing them on 7d’s in the field.
Agreed, though I think the sensor will be higher than 26mpx.

I started out with EF-s lenses. I was a little pissed off when I figured out that they frame the same as an EF lens on the same crop sensor camera. Expensive learning experience for me. :) After that, I never understood the point of those lenses other than maybe the cost.
 
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researcher

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This would be great - I've been half-joking that an R7 was surely in the pipe on this forum for awhile. All those Canon Rebel owners - the majority of Canon DSLR buyers - should have a path to the mirrorless R-series, which, face it, is the mainline upgrade path to follow - M is pretty much an off-shoot path.

I know I'm not a pro shooter and have no aspirations to be one. APSC is good enough for me, so I'd like the chance to keep my existing EF-S lenses and benefit from the innovations in the R-series, like IBIS, 4K, connectivity, advanced dual pixel focusing and all those goodies.

I think an R7 type camera will have much more appeal than people here might believe (in the sense that people here are not as average shooters as the great masses). Personally, I don't care much for megapixels - I'd like to see something affordable, with low light capability, and I think a smaller APSC sensor might be a great place to introduce a global shutter feature, if the processing capacity can handle/be adapted to it. Lets see what comes out - they dazzled with the R5 and R6, so hopefully an R7 will do the same.
 

CanonFanBoy

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This would be great - I've been half-joking that an R7 was surely in the pipe on this forum for awhile. All those Canon Rebel owners - the majority of Canon DSLR buyers - should have a path to the mirrorless R-series, which, face it, is the mainline upgrade path to follow - M is pretty much an off-shoot path.

I know I'm not a pro shooter and have no aspirations to be one. APSC is good enough for me, so I'd like the chance to keep my existing EF-S lenses and benefit from the innovations in the R-series, like IBIS, 4K, connectivity, advanced dual pixel focusing and all those goodies.

I think an R7 type camera will have much more appeal than people here might believe (in the sense that people here are not as average shooters as the great masses). Personally, I don't care much for megapixels - I'd like to see something affordable, with low light capability, and I think a smaller APSC sensor might be a great place to introduce a global shutter feature, if the processing capacity can handle/be adapted to it. Lets see what comes out - they dazzled with the R5 and R6, so hopefully an R7 will do the same.
Depending on what your definition of affordable is, I don't think this camera is it. The rumor specifically states "high end". I am guessing at least $2k. The 7D Mark II is not a Rebel.
 

Michael Clark

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I agree with you. The 7d mk2 is the in between camera that probably caused a lot of discussion at Canon. Its APC but with the speed and build quality of of the higher end FF Canon's. Most users put higher end telephotos on them. In effect a budget 1D minus the high iso performance. I think Canon sees two markets. FF with high quality expensive lenses and profit margin. M series for small light relatively inexpensive but prone to erosion due to smart phones.
The new 600/800mm seem like gateway products to entice users to the RF side.

I think the RF 600/800 f/11 lenses are meant to entice and will entice more EF-S shooters (and Micro Four-Thirds) to RF than any EF-M shooters.

The EOS M series has been around for eight years. Canon seems pretty clear that they see it is a one-trick pony: small, affordable cameras with compact lenses for someone who wants a camera easy to carry around when their smartphone isn't quite enough. It's not aimed at anyone that wants a 400mm lens, much less an 800mm lens. It's not aimed at anyone who might have aspirations of eventually moving to full frame or owning a backpack full of lenses. It's not intended for any use that requires a lens larger in diameter than every single EF-M lens ever made: 61mm.

If Canon ever intended to make an EF-M lens larger in diameter than 61mm, they would have done it by now.
 

Michael Clark

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But why is an R7 needed? I guess it was for high speed back in the days. But now you can shoot 12/20fps with a FF

It was more than just high speed.

It was also top build quality and weather resistance on the same level as the 1-series.
It was also an AF system designed at the same level as the 1D X/5D Mark III (though the narrower baseline of an APS-C mirror limited its performance relative to the FF systems).
It was also a shutter durability rating that exceeded the 5-series by a factor of 1.33X.
It was also high pixel density on the same level as the 5Ds.

All for a price lower than a slower polycarbonate FF body with much lower pixel density and a basic Rebel-level AF system.
 
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Michael Clark

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I'll call my shot...R7 announcing in January, priced at $1899 US, somewhere in the 20-24MP range.

I think Canon will hold off on this one a bit longer until sports at the local level are back in full swing with full capacity crowds allowed to attend. I don't see that happening by the beginning of 2021. Maybe by the end of 2021.
 
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Michael Clark

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Indeed, if if weren;t for Sigma the lens lineup for EOS-M would be embarassing after so many years. I may have bought something along the lines of an M5II in RF mount, but hopefully we get to see a 7DII successor in RF mount long before Nikon makes a D500 successor. If the AF is basically R5 level in a crop sensor of 24-30MP, I may grab that over the R5, would be happy with just 4K60p, 4K30p and FHD180p

I don't think Canon ever intended nor currently intends to release an EF-M lens that is not 61mm in diameter, give or take 0.2mm.

After eight years it ought to be obvious what role Canon sees the M-series filling: Compact cameras and lenses that are affordable and can meet the needs of buyers who are not photo professionals nor photo enthusiasts.
 

Michael Clark

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Yeah, but you weren't talking about the the EOS RP (2019-present), you were talking about APS-C cameras from "2003-2012." During those years, many photographers would begin on affordable 20D/Rebel bodies and work their way up to full-frame Canons like the 5D series.

I never said "everyone who shot on APS-C cameras went out to shoot full-frame." I only claimed that some people did, and APS-C cameras became the ladder into full-frame.

The elephant in the room you are ignoring is that back then, with the lone exception of the $2,699 5D Mark II in 2008, every full frame camera during that entire era was priced at over $3,400. That is no longer the case now. One no longer has to start with APS-C body to get an affordable camera. By affordable I mean for those folks who eventually moved up the ladder to full frame, not those who can't afford any entry level interchangeable lens camera that costs $500 or more.

The 20D, at $1,499 when released, was considerably more expensive in 2004 dollars than the RP costs in 2020. That $1.5K in 2004 bought what $2,047 buys in 2020. Adjusted for inflation, the full frame RP in 2020 costs half what the 20D cost in 2004!

Give it time for their initial owners to upgrade and used RP bodies will be available for far less than what used 20D bodies went for in the late 2000s.
 

Michael Clark

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Here's what I would do if I were Canon:

* The new 1.6x crop sensor body uses the existing R mount and for sake of argument let's assume it will be called a RS camera.
* It can use any RF (FF) lens, using the 1.6x crop of the image circle.
* It can use any EF (FF) lens, using various EF-to-RF adaptors and a 1.6x crop of the image circle.
* It can use any new R (1.6x crop) lenses they might make, and for sake of argument let's say they're called RS lenses.
* It can use any EF-S (1.6x crop) lens, using new various new EF-S-to-RS adaptors.
* IF they can make a EF-M-to-RS-teleconverter (which may or may not be possible as the teleconverter must extend the flange distance of the EF-M lens by 2mm + depth of converter metal mount - but hey - they are Canon) then it can use any EF-M lens with a new crop factor.

* The RF (FF) body can already use any EF (FF) lens with various EF-to-RF converters.
* The RF (FF) body can use new RS lenses in 1.6x crop mode.

In addition (in case anybody wanted to do it):
* A RF (FF) body could use any EF-S lens in crop mode with new adapter.
* IF EF-M-to-RS-teleconverter works, the RF (FF) body could use any EF-M lens with a new crop factor.

Hence their future of FF is RF, and the future of 1.6x crop is RS, and they're all interchangeable on the R mount. Everybody, y'all bring your existing lenses and join the R party - All hail Canon! :ROFLMAO:

If I made some glaring mistake, please let me know. I'm not a Canon expert, and am only thinking "outside the box" and I suppose it's possible I'm so far outside that I "fell off the table" :ROFLMAO:

RS is probably not a good choice.

"S" in Canon nomenclature of camera bodies for the past two decades has indicated higher resolution variants of different models.

The 1Ds series was the FF, higher resolution counterpart to the APS-H 1D series.
The 5Ds and 5Ds R were the 50MP counterparts to the 22 MP 5D Mark III.

It'd be like calling an APS-C version of a Sony α7 series an α7R.

Also, most of those EF→RF adapters you theorize about already exist and are capable of handling EF-S lenses.
 
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Baron_Karza

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Whatever they do, I wouldn't want the M line to get cancelled.

M is great for keeping the body and the lenses small.
Great for travel.

If Canon does make a high end APS-C, I think business wise they should do that with and RF mount, not EF-M. And I would be fine with that.
 

navastronia

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The elephant in the room you are ignoring is that back then, with the lone exception of the $2,699 5D Mark II in 2008, every full frame camera during that entire era was priced at over $3,400. That is no longer the case now. One no longer has to start with APS-C body to get an affordable camera. By affordable I mean for those folks who eventually moved up the ladder to full frame, not those who can't afford any entry level interchangeable lens camera that costs $500 or more.

The 20D, at $1,499 when released, was considerably more expensive in 2004 dollars than the RP costs in 2020. That $1.5K in 2004 bought what $2,047 buys in 2020. Adjusted for inflation, the full frame RP in 2020 costs half what the 20D cost in 2004!

Give it time for their initial owners to upgrade and used RP bodies will be available for far less than what used 20D bodies went for in the late 2000s.

I'm not ignoring anything, but it's obvious the conversation has somehow shifted from talking about the past to talking about the present.

We're in perfect agreement that the ILC market, and the cameras available on it, is different in 2020 than it was in 2005.
 

Twinix

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That depends upon whether it only has 20 MP like the R6 or has much higher resolution. UHS-II would probably be more than enough. But for similar capacity, the fastest UHS-II cards aren't much cheaper than CFExpress cards, and even the slowest CFExpress cards are faster than the fastest UHS-II cards.
Of course it all depends. The R5 has a buffer of 180 RAW images, so I don’t think it will be a problem.
 

Stig Nygaard

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I'll call my shot...R7 announcing in January, priced at $1899 US, somewhere in the 20-24MP range.

I'm ready :)
Though I hope they make it a bit cheaper. I don't need the full-proff 1Dx roughness of the 7D series. I rather have the an articulated LCD and a body build something like in the R6 to R5 ballgame.
 

Stig Nygaard

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A lot of what you say is true, but you don't seem to understand how most 7-series bodies, particularly the 7D Mark II that has been around since 2014, are used by those that own them.

True:
 
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