Thoughts From Canon on a Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera

[briansquibb]

Why not go this route with ff sensor?

http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/cameras/fuji-gf670-medium-format-camera.html

 

[Bengt Nyman]

Why not go this route with ff sensor? http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/cameras/fuji-gf670-medium-format-camera.html

Because the bellows is today built into the lens.

 

[Meh]

A "super G series" ,,, the image quality they want and the single lens they want ,,,

The reason why mirrorless EVF technology will be replacing the SLR in essentially all camera categories is because that technology offers superior performance, size and price. A few action sports photographers will hang on to their mirror boxes until sensor based follow focus outperforms DSLR phase detect. To try to pigeon hole mirrorless into some little camera sub-category is not going to stop its advancement through the camera ranks.
Of course all cameras competing for flexibility and IQ should have interchangeable lenses.
If anything should be pigeon holed into a low IQ camera category it is the fixed lens.

It will when there remains no compelling reason for the flipping mirror. You may not have meant it that way but your comment betrays itself in stating that mirrorless offers superior performance but immediately follow with an example where it does not (yet). It's not just action sports photographers, anyone who wants to get the best shots of anything that moves (e.g. kids, dogs, cars) will do better with a decent phase-detect AF.

But yes, mirrorless cameras don't need to be pigeon holed as low IQ cameras.

 

[Rocky]

A "super G series" ,,, the image quality they want and the single lens they want ,,,

The reason why mirrorless EVF technology will be replacing the SLR in essentially all camera categories is because that technology offers superior performance, size and price. A few action sports photographers will hang on to their mirror boxes until sensor based follow focus outperforms DSLR phase detect. To try to pigeon hole mirrorless into some little camera sub-category is not going to stop its advancement through the camera ranks.
Of course all cameras competing for flexibility and IQ should have interchangeable lenses.
If anything should be pigeon holed into a low IQ camera category it is the fixed lens.

Unfortunately, as it is now, EVF is still pretty slow in response to the change of scenery and being expensive. There is only one camea that is with the built in EVF (Fuji X100). The rest are add on EVF externally. That will make the camera bigger. Also the focusing speed of the "mirrorless" are slow, compare to the DSLR. In other word we may still need to live with the mirror for a few more years.
As for fixed mirror equals to low IQ. I am totally disagree on it. If you look back into the history of camera, there are many camera that are with fixed lens with IQ to be better than interchangeablelens camera of the same time. Just to name a few: Rollieflex, Rolliecord, Retina etc. The IQ depends how the lens is made (and hence pricing), not whether it is fixed or not.

 

[Bengt Nyman]

The IQ depends how the lens is made ,,, not whether it is fixed or not.

Of course. That's why I said flexibility and IQ.
With interchangeable lenses you usually have several superior lenses to choose from.
I consider that an advantage.
You mention Fuji X100. That may be why you do not yet share my enthusiasm for EVF. Take a look at a Sony NEX 7

 

[Bengt Nyman]

,,, your comment betrays itself in stating that mirrorless offers superior performance but immediately follow with an example where it does not.

You are misusing the word betray. I said that mirrorless already offers superior performance EXCEPT in case of action sports photography. I think most people understand that refers to fast moving targets, be it an athlete, a kid, a dog or a car.

 

[ecka]

,,, your comment betrays itself in stating that mirrorless offers superior performance but immediately follow with an example where it does not.

You are misusing the word betray. I said that mirrorless already offers superior performance EXCEPT in case of action sports photography. I think most people understand that refers to fast moving targets, be it an athlete, a kid, a dog or a car.

Mirrorless with fast enough AF (CDAF or maybe something new) and EVF (with no perceptible lag) has a huge potential and I think that it will replace DSLRs in the future. Imagine 20fps continuous burst and even more while using electronic shutter (if the ghosting problems will be resolved that is ).
EVF has some advantages already
- easy exposure and WB control due to real time image simulation;
- EVF can be used for filming;
- 100% viewfinder coverage even in low end cameras;
- focus peaking feature for manual focusing through the EVF;
- removing mirror and pentaprism makes some space for other useful things, like dedicated CPU for that super fast EVF ;
- FF would be easily compatible with EF-S lenses (in crop mode);
- probably there are even more pros., feel free to add some

 

[Bengt Nyman]

feel free to add some more

Excellent, somebody has seen the light.
Mirrorless also means:
Focus is done on the image sensor, not on a secondary sensor which is subject to location tolerances and thermal displacement. This means more accurate and reliable focus.
No mirror dynamics and vibrations during exposure.
No mirror noise.
Light measurement is done live on the image sensor.
Light measurement, aperture, exposure time and ISO settings are reflected live in the EVF image. You see a true, interactive preview of the picture before to take it.
Electronic first and second curtain shutter, coming soon to a camera near you, means no moving shutter parts, no shutter vibrations, no noise and no wear.

That was just to name a few more.

 

[Rocky]

The IQ depends how the lens is made ,,, not whether it is fixed or not.

Of course. That's why I said flexibility and IQ.
With interchangeable lenses you usually have several superior lenses to choose from.
I consider that an advantage.
You mention Fuji X100. That may be why you do not yet share my enthusiasm for EVF. Take a look at a Sony NEX 7

If anything should be pigeon holed into a low IQ camera category it is the fixed lens.

The above quote is you exact word.

 

[Meh]

,,, your comment betrays itself in stating that mirrorless offers superior performance but immediately follow with an example where it does not.

You are misusing the word betray. I said that mirrorless already offers superior performance EXCEPT in case of action sports photography. I think most people understand that refers to fast moving targets, be it an athlete, a kid, a dog or a car.

I did preface my response by saying "you may not have meant it that way" because I felt you had some good points but were stretching a bit. Unfortunately, your original comment didn't have the "EXCEPT" in it that you now add.

Your exact comment was:

"because that technology offers superior performance, size and price." [notice the full stop here] You then went on to say "A few action sports photographers will hang on to their mirror boxes until sensor based follow focus outperforms DSLR phase detect."

I doubt most people take "a few action sports photographers" to include people who shoot their kids or dog running around the park. Some boudoir photographers might like the fast AF too, oh wait that could be an action sport too. ;D

 

[moreorless]

What mirrorless may become and what it is today are two very different propositions, today I think its clear that most users who want multiple speicalist lenses still preffer DSLR's. As I said my feeling is that alot of its sucess is based on the lack of larger sensor fixed lens alternatives.

You could argue that Canon would be better served by "getting on the horse" but equally I think you could argue that by holding off there giving themselves more flexibility. Much of the tech for an interchangeble lens system can be tested and perfected on a fixed lens system afterall and it means Canon isnt tied to a certain sensor size/lens mount long term in what is still a fast changing market.

 

[Rocky]

What mirrorless may become and what it is today are two very different propositions, today I think its clear that most users who want multiple speicalist lenses still preffer DSLR's. As I said my feeling is that alot of its sucess is based on the lack of larger sensor fixed lens alternatives.

You could argue that Canon would be better served by "getting on the horse" but equally I think you could argue that by holding off there giving themselves more flexibility. Much of the tech for an interchangeble lens system can be tested and perfected on a fixed lens system afterall and it means Canon isnt tied to a certain sensor size/lens mount long term in what is still a fast changing market.

Agree. until Canon can give us Fast AF on non-DSLR bodies. It makes no sense for Canon to jump into "large sensor" "mirrorless". Technically, Canon is already in "mirrorless" with the "G" and "S" series.

 

[Bengt Nyman]

I think that most users who want multiple lenses still prefer DSLR's. A lot of its success is based on the lack of larger sensor fixed lens alternatives.

The fact that most high IQ cameras have interchangeable lenses is because it gives both manufacturer and user more flexibility. Imagine that most cameras had fixed lenses. The camera manufacturer would have to offer at least a dozen different versions of each camera type. Not to speak of us poor users. I would have to carry six cameras with fixed lenses to many of the events.
If you are that enamored with fixed lenses, just leave yours on.

 

[Bengt Nyman]

Until Canon can give us Fast AF on non-DSLR bodies. It makes no sense for Canon to jump into "large sensor" "mirrorless". Technically, Canon is already in "mirrorless" with the "G" and "S" series.

Don't forget the landscape and studio camera market. It needs a large, high IQ sensor with accurate, interactive preview, accurate rather than fast focus, and it benefits greatly from freedom of mirror and shutter vibrations.

 

[Rocky]

Until Canon can give us Fast AF on non-DSLR bodies. It makes no sense for Canon to jump into "large sensor" "mirrorless". Technically, Canon is already in "mirrorless" with the "G" and "S" series.

Don't forget the landscape and studio camera market. It needs a large, high IQ sensor with accurate, interactive preview, accurate rather than fast focus, and it benefits greatly from freedom of mirror and shutter vibrations.

It will be interesting to see an APS-C (or smaller sensor) mirrorless to be use by landscape and studio photographer.

 

[moreorless]

The fact that most high IQ cameras have interchangeable lenses is because it gives both manufacturer and user more flexibility. Imagine that most cameras had fixed lenses. The camera manufacturer would have to offer at least a dozen different versions of each camera type. Not to speak of us poor users. I would have to carry six cameras with fixed lenses to many of the events.
If you are that enamored with fixed lenses, just leave yours on.

My point was that the low sales of mirrorless lenses suggest that the majority of the market are not interested in flexability but rather image quality. If a mirrorless kit lens is good enough for them then a fixed lens that likely has a superior zoom range, better appature and more macro ability will be aswell.

They would miss out on some business but equally they may well gain some from users who don't want the hassel of multiple lenses aswell as a potentially more pocketable camera. Whats more they wouldnt end up stepping on the feet of there own DSLR business

 

[ecka]

My point was that the low sales of mirrorless lenses suggest that the majority of the market are not interested in flexability but rather image quality. If a mirrorless kit lens is good enough for them then a fixed lens that likely has a superior zoom range, better appature and more macro ability will be aswell.

They would miss out on some business but equally they may well gain some from users who don't want the hassel of multiple lenses aswell as a potentially more pocketable camera. Whats more they wouldnt end up stepping on the feet of there own DSLR business

...or maybe sales are low because those lenses are not good enough. Another reason - many users are adapting cheap old manual lenses like Canon FD or M42, while others are using their expensive Leica M lenses. Could someone share some numbers on mirrorless lens adapters sales?

 

[bobquincy]

After 10 years of Canon dSLRs (from D30 to Rebel Xsi) I got tired of waiting for Canon to produce a smaller/lighter system (could be mirrorless or not) and bought into a Panasonic micro 4/3 system to replace my dSLRs. I have a Canon G11 and it is a nice camera but image quality is nowhere near the Panasonic G3, it is probably just a limitation of the sensor size.

On a recent trip I used focal lengths from 7 to 175 (35mm equivalent of 14-350). It is unlikely that a fixed lens camera can offer anywhere near this range, none do yet (that I am aware of). Another lens that is in my plans is a f/1.7 or faster, no P&S offers this plus a zoom lens. Again, the G series are good cameras but can't offer the flexibility of interchangeable lens cameras.

A super G appears to be a real niche camera, appealing to a small group who want good image quality and are ok with a small zoom range and limited aperture. They will probably have to accept power zoom too. If the price is anywhere near that of a good micro 4/3 I can't see Canon selling many of these and that is why I doubt Canon will produce such a camera. I would be glad if they did though, more choices is always good!

Size and weight matter, carrying the G3 and three lenses was far less bulk than my Rebel and 2 lenses. As for myself, Canon will have to make something a lot like a micro 4/3 to get my business back, now that I have switched to Panasonic I really like it.

 

[Rocky]

The fact that most high IQ cameras have interchangeable lenses is because it gives both manufacturer and user more flexibility. Imagine that most cameras had fixed lenses. The camera manufacturer would have to offer at least a dozen different versions of each camera type. Not to speak of us poor users. I would have to carry six cameras with fixed lenses to many of the events.
If you are that enamored with fixed lenses, just leave yours on.

My point was that the low sales of mirrorless lenses suggest that the majority of the market are not interested in flexability but rather image quality. If a mirrorless kit lens is good enough for them then a fixed lens that likely has a superior zoom range, better appature and more macro ability will be aswell.

They would miss out on some business but equally they may well gain some from users who don't want the hassel of multiple lenses aswell as a potentially more pocketable camera. Whats more they wouldnt end up stepping on the feet of there own DSLR business

That is exactly the reason why I have suggested Canon should upsize the S100. Give it a 4/3 sensor, FAST AF, Keep f2.0 at wide side,make it faster at tele with a better lens at the same time.

 

[John MARK]

On some occasions, shutter noise is pretty much annoying : when trying to shoot "natural" situations at a family meeting, at a classical music concert etc.

I tried the Panasonic G3 and Sony NEX-5 and was very disappointed to hear such noisy shutters on both cameras, actually quite similar to a 60D's clicks.

So for unobtrusive shooting, I'll keep my trusty G12 until Canon comes out with something significantly better in terms of IQ AND just as silent in operation, with articulated screen of course and maybe a 6x or 7x zoom (interchangeable lenses not needed for that type of camera).