Here are the full Canon EOS R specifications

[Timedog]

Does d750 have DPAF?

No, the d750 doesn't have every single Canon innovation. That's completely missing my point. Canon could have d750 sensor tech AND DPAF if they chose to.

I am not a consumer in this particular market segment, so I am in favor of Canon making a boatload of money on this camera and then spending this money on making a camera I would want.

Hopefully, if this camera is disappointing, the rumored "pro body" has the stuff this is missing. If that's the case I might just save up a few extra months and buy that.

And I want a pony.

Well, actually not, but you got the idea.

If the competitors have supplied ponies for the last decade at a reasonable price, yeah, I'd want a pony too.

 

[Quarkcharmed]

I think the numbers for 5D4 are for the dedicated AF sensor, not for DPAF.

Good point. So yeah maybe these figures cannot be used for indirect sensor comparison between R and 5D4. Still they show the R sensor is good in low light.

 

[BillB]

FFS I'm pronouncing it dead FOR ME.

I guess that is a fancy was to say you won't buy it if it doesn't have the specs you want.

 

[Timedog]

That's what I was thinking, too. I do a lot of landscape photography including night-scapes so I'm all after the higher DR, low-light AF, flip screen and weather-sealed body. So far I've been satisfied with how my 5D4 is sealed, it's been exposed to different conditions to say the least and it works ok so far.

Single-card slot and AA filter on the R sensor are big downsides though, so I'll likely be waiting for a higher end camera with hopefully greater resolution and hopefully with no AA filter.

Your landscapes are super nice. Is "Pulpit Rock Before Dawn" multiple exposures combined?

I don't think I care that much about single card. I baby my gear including SD cards (I even have cases to put my cards in). I'll probably buy some of the new Sony TOUGH SD cards for doing professional work. I know a lot of photographers leave loose cards hanging around, put one in their wallet, etc. For that type of workflow it's probably a bigger deal. I also buy new cards a lot because I use cards as a 3rd line of defense for archiving for important work. The chance of an SD card failing in a way that's not recoverable when it's not's physically damaged seems extremely small. The biggest problem is with actual physical damage.

I think the numbers for 5D4 are for the dedicated AF sensor, not for DPAF.

This is a very good point.

 

[Mikehit]

The insanely weird "they are in the business of making money, not making cameras with modern specs" argument is just wild. Why on earth, as a consumer, would I be in favor of Canon making a boatload of money, vs. making a more reasonable amount of money and spending a little more of that cash to give me a better product? A camera that gives me the stuff other cameras had 3-5 years ago AS WELL as the cool Canon innovations. They certainly have enough money to do so, that's inarguable. I want the best best camera at the best price. If you are a consumer and you're arguing for Canon's bottom line, you are arguing against yourself in favor of a faceless corporation. That is fanboyism at its worst.

We'll see if this is just a 5DIV sensor. We'll see about the price. The announcement is soon. But no one should be satisfied if this turns out to be another significantly sub-par offering. "Canon is in the business of making money" is not a good argument against anyone's disappointment.

Yes, I would love it if Canon gave everything Sony has with all the ergonomics and advantages of Canon gear. But to demand it or say that Canon does not do it purely to screw the customer is a fantasy (and that is putting it very politely). If Canon don't make a profit then they can't make cameras I enjoy using.

So go buy a Sony camera and then get their native lenses and see how it compares to the price of Canon body+lens. Try and get your precious Sony camera serviced - whoops! they don't bother because they will release a new model next year and the one that just broke is old hat. And what a shame Sony cannot incorporate useful touch screen functionality on their camera - Canon does so why can't Sony (even with all their experience of phones and TVs)? Stupid Sony.
And Sony has nasty history of releasing a camera and fixing bugs (that shouldn't have been there in the first place) not by software but by making you buy a whole new camera.
So why does Sony taken this approach? because they want to churn out as many cameras as possible, get all the headlines with high-tech gizmos and sell more bodies and they don't really give a stuff about the customer's long term planning or long-term reliability. How is that any different from your complaint about Canon?

So my point is one of priorities each company has and how it spends its R&D dollar. Sony is catching up on interface and ergonomics and after-sales service, just as Canon is catching up regards technology. You say that Canon is 5 years behind on technology but Sony is decades behind on customer service and ergonomics - I prefer the latter to the technology.
Am I a fanboy? Nope - I own Panasonic and Oly gear as well and buy what does the best job for me. But I also have a healthy understanding of how a company operates and a practical realisation that if Canon stops giving me what I need I will change brands. And I would never sit there all miserable if I felt the company was intentionally screwing me - and I can't understand people who do. Life is too short to not enjoy a hobby.

 

[symmar22]

What you're saying, which makes complete sense to me, seems to refute what Beachcolonist is saying. His/her comment made no sense to me.

I'd imagine the increase in lowlight focus you've extrapolated here is either due to a better, lower noise, higher DR sensor, or from better processing/algorithms from digic 8/8+. I'm hoping for the former. If we have a D850 level sensor and a flip screen at a decent price(2000-2500) I'll be more than happy to forego IBIS, 120fps, and non-cropped 4k. To me, sensor is king when it comes to taking better photographs, and I'm 90% photographer, 10% videographer.

As much as would love it, I am afraid that hoping to match D850 sensor IQ and DR is a bit over-enthusiastic. The D850 sensor is simply THE best FF sensor on the market for IQ, even very slightly surpassing Sony's own A7RIII sensor. I really doubt Canon has made such progress since the 5D4. Therefore for me, as much as I will keep my Canon gear for work, the Nikon Z6/Z7 makes more sense as a side camera for adapting vintage manual glass.

 

[Quarkcharmed]

We've already had it in this thread, but I'll just repeat the simple extrapolation using the standard scale with 1/3 stop increment (1.0 1.1 1.2 1.4 1.6 1.8 2 2.2 2.5 2.8 3.2 3.5 4)

-6EV @ f1.2
-5EV @ f1.8
-4EV @ f2.5
-3EV @ f3.5

If 5D4 does -3EV at f2.8, then there's 2/3 stops between f2.8 and f3.5, so R does AF by 2/3 stops better than 5D4. If it somehow corresponds to the dynamic range of the sensor, we're going to get a pretty good sensor at D850 level.

Quoting myself here...
That's interesting. From the Canon specs on 5D4, https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-5d-mark-iv/advanced-focusing/,

(Central AF point) EV-3 at one central AF point focusing at f/2.8, One-Shot AF, 23°C/73°F, ISO 100
(Live View) EV-4 at 23°C/73°F, ISO 100, One-Shot AF

They specified -3EV @ f2.8 for standard AF and -4EV and no f-number for LiveView which corresponds to the prospective DPAF in the R. I assume it's -4EV @ f2.8, so, compared to the -4EV @ f2.5, 5D4 does 1/3 stops better than R.

But 1/3 stop difference is marginal so we can come to a conclusion it's likely going to be the same sensor as in 5D4...

 

[BillB]

Huh? The only* thing wrong with the M5 Mk1 is the lack of a 16-64 (4x) f/4.0 (constant aperture) IS zoom. Come on, Canon. That'd be an easy way to rip gobs of money out of my, and lots of other folks, pockets.

All the squawking and wailing here (including mine!), though, is because the EOS-R doesn't push the envelope much. Everyone here is a pro or a camera nerd, and none of us got the particular bell or whistle that s/he wanted. But a 30MP camera with a lighter body and smaller/lighter (and hopefully better) 24-105/4.0 IS will be a really great camera for a lot of people. FF without the pain of the 5D2 +24-70/2.8. "Good show, Canon" is what we should be saying.

*: I know, I know. Video. I don't do video, but tried it. The battery drained instantly and the camera got almost hot enough to burn my hands. Sheesh. Since I don't do video, I love the M5 Mk1.

Well if an M5 will float your boat, an R might not be the right camera for you, whether or not is pushes the envelope

 

[Quarkcharmed]

Your landscapes are super nice. Is "Pulpit Rock Before Dawn" multiple exposures combined?

Thank you! Yes most of the night shots are multi-exposure shots, that image is two shots combined taken within maybe 30 minutes interval, 1-2 minutes or so and ISO 100 for the land and a few seconds and ISO 4000 for the milky way.

 

[Kit.]

No, the d750 doesn't have every single Canon innovation. That's completely missing my point. Canon could have d750 sensor tech AND DPAF if they chose to.

I don't think so. "Dual pixel" may as well mean that you need twice as much data per frame to process.

 

[Timedog]

Yes, I would love it if Canon gave everything Sony has with all the ergonomics and advantages of Canon gear. But to demand it or say that Canon does not do it purely to screw the customer is a fantasy (and that is putting it very politely). If Canon don't make a profit then they can't make cameras I enjoy using.

So go buy a Sony camera and then get their native lenses and see how it compares to the price of Canon body+lens. Try and get your precious Sony camera serviced - whoops! they don't bother because they will release a new model next year and the one that just broke is old hat. And what a shame Sony cannot incorporate useful touch screen functionality on their camera - Canon does so why can't Sony (even with all their experience of phones and TVs)? Stupid Sony.
And Sony has nasty history of releasing a camera and fixing bugs (that shouldn't have been there in the first place) not by software but by making you buy a whole new camera.
So why does Sony taken this approach? because they want to churn out as many cameras as possible, get all the headlines with high-tech gizmos and sell more bodies and they don't really give a stuff about the customer's long term planning or long-term reliability. How is that any different from your complaint about Canon?

So my point is one of priorities each company has and how it spends its R&D dollar. Sony is catching up on interface and ergonomics and after-sales service, just as Canon is catching up regards technology. You say that Canon is 5 years behind on technology but Sony is decades behind on customer service and ergonomics - I prefer the latter to the technology.
Am I a fanboy? Nope - I own Panasonic and Oly gear as well and buy what does the best job for me. But I also have a healthy understanding of how a company operates and a practical realisation that if Canon stops giving me what I need I will change brands. And I would never sit there all miserable if I felt the company was intentionally screwing me - and I can't understand people who do. Life is too short to not enjoy a hobby.

It's easy to understand people that do--they a ton of money invested in a system, and the hassle of selling their gear mixed with the negative returns means that switching systems is a HUGE deal that will cost them a lot of money. It's not a trivial decision. By selling your gear and switching you're starting at a disadvantage. So a 2.000 Sony camera might cost someone 4-5-6,000+ once they lose money on selling used gear. Way way more than that if you have the crazy telephoto lenses. Are the competitors gear so good that they're worth THAT much to switch? For some, sure. for others, no. Not yet at least.

Somehow Apple is the market leader in phones and they can provide excellent service while still giving the best technology on the market year after year. I'm an Android user and I can even admit that. The only reason I don't go Apple is because they don't have the best price. If Canon had high prices, but the best technology, that would be one thing. But when they have high prices and technology several generations behind, some people don't like that. I can use a 40 year old lens and take a good picture. I can't take the picture I want when the scene's dynamic range too far exceeds my expensive, half-decade-ago-technology sensor's dynamic range. When other people standing right next to me are able to get the shot, that's a problem.

 

[Timedog]

I don't think so. "Dual pixel" may as well mean that you need twice as much data per frame to process.

Weird how Sony has WAY BETTER than D750 sensor tech while still having dual pixel, when they make way less money than Canon from their cameras. I guess it's impossible for Canon to do for some weird reason though????

 

[Kit.]

Weird how Sony has WAY BETTER than D750 sensor tech while still having dual pixel,

Sony has no dual pixel. That's why their autofocus is worse than Canon's.

If by "sensor tech" you mean DR, you can get an equivalent or even better DR from 5D4 (and supposedly R) sensor if you record (twice as large) dual pixel raws.

 

[Timedog]

Sony has no dual pixel. That's why their autofocus is worse than Canon's.

If by "sensor tech" you mean DR, you can get an equivalent or even better DR from 5D4 (and supposedly R) sensor if you record (twice as large) dual pixel raws.

They don't have "DPAF" because that's trademarked by Canon. But they have on sensor phase detect autofocus. Many manufacturers have this. A different version of the same thing. Is it as good? People generally say that Canon's version is a little better, but it's debatable. Canon's version is certainly fantastic. Dual pixel raws aren't the same as raws with a better sensor, due to parallax issues. Not to mention Sony has pixel shift...

 

[Kit.]

They don't have "DPAF" because that's trademarked by Canon.

It is patented as well.

But they have on sensor phase detect autofocus. Many manufacturers have this. A different version of the same thing.

Not of the same thing. DPAF allows use of any image pixel as a part of the phase detector - but at higher processing and bandwidth costs.

Dual pixel raws aren't the same as raws with a better sensor, due to parallax issues.

Canon already sums these dual pixels into a single pixel during RAW creation. It's just that the sum needs 15 bits to keep highlights from clipping, while Canon only gives 14.

 

[justaCanonuser]

I respect the usability of Canon cameras, and how things "just work". But you don't have to have a camera that's 5 years behind tech-wise to have things just work correctly. Even 1 year is an eternity with modern technology, and they're literally 5 years behind in many areas. There's no excuse if something like their sensor tech can't match the d750 from 4 years ago. They make the most money, they have the biggest potential budget. I hope at least the sensor is better.

The insanely weird "they are in the business of making money, not making cameras with modern specs" argument is just wild. Why on earth, as a consumer, would I be in favor of Canon making a boatload of money, vs. making a more reasonable amount of money and spending a little more of that cash to give me a better product? A camera that gives me the stuff other cameras had 3-5 years ago AS WELL as the cool Canon innovations. They certainly have enough money to do so, that's inarguable. I want the best best camera at the best price. If you are a consumer and you're arguing for Canon's bottom line, you are arguing against yourself in favor of a faceless corporation. That is fanboyism at its worst.

We'll see if this is just a 5DIV sensor. We'll see about the price. The announcement is soon. But no one should be satisfied if this turns out to be another significantly sub-par offering. "Canon is in the business of making money" is not a good argument against anyone's disappointment.

Reading such statements I wonder why famous photographers such as Sebastião Salgado still are using Canon gear. Man, do they have any clue about photography? Or (what I think get's closer to the truth) do other things than best DxO scores matter for them? A camera still is more than a sensor, and reliability is something that really counts if you are doing business. If, in future, we will have sensors directly implanted in our eyes, things may change (then the crucial question may be if your own body is good enough for the technology).

My personal experience with gears of different camera makers shot side-by-side simply is: if you really sit in a mess of heavy rain, sand storm, salt water spray etc., Canon gear just doesn't let you down, other gears do. So, my experience is that the part of your money invested in working seals, buttons that don't quit their function when getting a bit wet, really rugged mechanical parts and last but least very good glass, is really something that matters. As long as Canon shines in this category and does not lose completely track in electronics, I will use their system. I also like that their out-of-the box colors mostly are very useable, what again can't be said about every other brand. This is not about fanboyism, it is about realism. Canon is like Toyota and the L lens series like Lexus - not as fancy as a Ferrari but you can expect that you always get safely from A to B. If Canon would give up this quality, I'd not hesitate to say goodbye to them.

 

[Loswr]

Canon already sums these dual pixels into a single pixel during RAW creation. It's just that the sum needs 15 bits to keep highlights from clipping, while Canon only gives 14.

That's why a properly processed dual pixel RAW file delivers more dynamic range than Sony's best sensors are capable of...if that sort of thing is important to you.

 

[Mark3794]

Same old story: the 6d mk2 and the m50 were called "crippled cameras" and probably the most hated cameras on internet forums. But they sell well and are very good. It's gonna be the same with the eos r

 

[Loswr]

Same old story: the 6d mk2 and the m50 were called "crippled cameras" and probably the most hated cameras on internet forums. But they sell well and are very good. It's gonna be the same with the eos r

On balance, I'm not seeing the EOS R being referred to as crippled. But I'm also not seeing that it offers significant advantages over a DSLR.

 

[tron]

Same old story: the 6d mk2 and the m50 were called "crippled cameras" and probably the most hated cameras on internet forums. But they sell well and are very good. It's gonna be the same with the eos r

Except when some admit their mistakes (or is it "mistakes" ?)

Tool: I made a mistake: Canon 6D mk II is the BEST vlogging camera. Seriously.