Is September 14 the day we finally get the official Canon EOS R3 announcement?

Jan 27, 2020
826
1,796
Just reinforcing the point that enthusiasts don't have the money to spend like professionals do....
According to Ziprecruiter, in the USA the "Top Earning" pro photographers can earn around $55,000. Average salary is $39,376. These figures are lower than the average USA full time employee salary.

It's funny in a way that people on forums continually make statements - that they represent as fact -that are incorrect, when we live in a world where information is right at our fingertips. It took me less than a minute to find out this info on my smartphone. Considering it takes almost no effort to find out information, why do people comtinually decide not to? Do they really think that the rest of us are either so stupid or so lazy that we won't try to find out the facts?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Upvote 0
Jan 27, 2020
826
1,796
Interesting point about how difficult it is to really discern the performance of the Sony camera division.

Also interesting what Manny Ortiz said. No doubt if Sony helps him get big jobs like Walmart, then that is far better and bigger compensation than free gear. There are many ways that a YouTuber can benefit from praising/recommending Sony.

Sony can promote you on their website, Alpha Universe, citing your video and linking to it, which will greatly accelerate your views and how much people know about you. For YouTube, views/follows/likes are like ratings for TV shows. The higher you go the more money you make. Also Sony fans seems to have a greater presence in social media and be more active. This may in part be fueled by Sony promotion. But either way, if you want to get more popular on YouTube, one way is to review and praise Sony.

I know a few YTers have also remarked about how the Sony PR people just do a great job reaching out and maintaining the relationships. One time iJustine mentioned about the Sony schwag she received and was positively giddy about it. Now that's minor in terms of money, but in some cases that can help make an impression.

And then of course, if Sony can help some land big jobs, well, that is quite the compensation.

As for retailers, no doubt that it's common to pay for product placement. A few years back at a conference where B&H was an exhibitor, one of the sales people mentioned that, at least at the time, they were able to buy Sony gear at half price. So all of the sales people used Sony. Now the sales people at B&H are great, and I would say definitely try their best to be impartial and offer great advice, but if you are owning and using the gear that definitely helps you recommend it.

So there are all sorts of levers to be pulled, and Sony has the cash to do so. They are very aggressive with their marketing.
Many of the reasons that I will never buy Sony again. And, in my opinion, they care more about marketing than making quality cameras. The fact that there is a class action suit in NY state claining that their shutters in the A7 III often fail between 10,000 and 50,000 actuations, falling far below the stated life expectancy of 200,000 actuations, also reinforces my belief that Sony takes a lot of shortcuts when it comes to making reliable cameras. Their sub-par dust removal and weather sealing in the past are also signs of the same.
 
Upvote 0

koenkooi

CR Pro
Feb 25, 2015
3,574
4,110
The Netherlands
[..]I know a few YTers have also remarked about how the Sony PR people just do a great job reaching out and maintaining the relationships. One time iJustine mentioned about the Sony schwag she received and was positively giddy about it. Now that's minor in terms of money, but in some cases that can help make an impression.[..]
That's something Gerald Undone mentioned as well, Sony PR is a well oiled machine for getting gear on your desk, under embargo, to enable you to make a decent review in that time. He specifically mentioned that Sony takes care of virtually all the paperwork and red tape. Imagine getting hit with import duty for your review loaner or having to spend a day on the phone to get it shipped back at their cost. A reviewer might just say "No, hard pass" if your PR department is hard to deal with.
So Gerald has a lot of Sony content, not just because it gets many clicks, but also because Sony is easy to deal with.

But the overall behaviour of the Sony internet army combined with the flood of reviews after an embargo ends have given me a knee-jerk dislike for Sony cameras.
 
Upvote 0

koenkooi

CR Pro
Feb 25, 2015
3,574
4,110
The Netherlands
I think if Apple built cameras, the would tell us to buy a new one every year. The iCamera 12 will be sooooo outdated, when the iCamera 13 comes out. Each new camera will have much deeper pixels.
No, the 13 Pro Ultra is the best! The green cast to the pictures is just the colour of your dollars flowing into Apples pockets :)
 
Upvote 0

Billybob

800mm f/11 because a cellphone isn't long enough!
May 22, 2016
268
537
That's something Gerald Undone mentioned as well, Sony PR is a well oiled machine for getting gear on your desk, under embargo, to enable you to make a decent review in that time. He specifically mentioned that Sony takes care of virtually all the paperwork and red tape. Imagine getting hit with import duty for your review loaner or having to spend a day on the phone to get it shipped back at their cost. A reviewer might just say "No, hard pass" if your PR department is hard to deal with.
So Gerald has a lot of Sony content, not just because it gets many clicks, but also because Sony is easy to deal with.

But the overall behaviour of the Sony internet army combined with the flood of reviews after an embargo ends have given me a knee-jerk dislike for Sony cameras.
This is rather curious. So a company that employs smart and sophisticated marketing is to be despised for employing good business practices? Do you have problems with Canon and Nikon providing free loaners to Pros at major sporting events? Frankly, I wish all companies would employ these practices. Sony makes damn good gear as does Canon and Nikon. If the cameras were bad, then the attempts to curry favor with influencers would backfire when YTubers get frustrating with cameras that just don't perform on par with the competition (hint: Nikon, this comment is for you). Maybe if that class action lawsuit is successful, I'll change my opinion, but I'm not seeing a lot of reports of Sony cameras failing or being more unreliable than other brands despite their lesser level of weather sealing.

Criticize the brand for poor performance or lack of desired features, but disliking a brand for trying to get information out to the public just doesn't make sense to me.
 
Upvote 0

koenkooi

CR Pro
Feb 25, 2015
3,574
4,110
The Netherlands
This is rather curious. So a company that employs smart and sophisticated marketing is to be despised for employing good business practices? Do you have problems with Canon and Nikon providing free loaners to Pros at major sporting events? Frankly, I wish all companies would employ these practices. Sony makes damn good gear as does Canon and Nikon. If the cameras were bad, then the attempts to curry favor with influencers would backfire when YTubers get frustrating with cameras that just don't perform on par with the competition (hint: Nikon, this comment is for you). Maybe if that class action lawsuit is successful, I'll change my opinion, but I'm not seeing a lot of reports of Sony cameras failing or being more unreliable than other brands despite their lesser level of weather sealing.

Criticize the brand for poor performance or lack of desired features, but disliking a brand for trying to get information out to the public just doesn't make sense to me.
It's not the publicity wave itself that annoys me, it's what comes after it: the Sony trolls ruining most of the internet with their vile behaviour. CanonRumors is a nice quiet place to wait that out, but don't go near dpreview, fredmiranda or other places.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Upvote 0

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,980
2,602
Alberta, Canada
It's not the publicity wave itself that annoys me, it's what comes after it: the Sony trolls ruining most of the internet with their vile behaviour. CanonRumors is a nice quiet place to wait that out, but don't go near dpreview, fredmiranda or other places.
Isn't it just human behaviour to take shots at the top whatever, especially in sports, and anonymity helps shield the pests from public shaming although Neuro tries hard. Observe carefully in any forum and you learn a lot about psychology, especially egos and don't be fooled, CR has had its share of unbecoming behaviour from time to time. For true friendly calm, visit the bird thread. :)

Jack
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Upvote 0

stevelee

FT-QL
CR Pro
Jul 6, 2017
2,383
1,064
Davidson, NC
Me neither, but as the kids left the nest and as my "needs" diminished, suddenly my modest pension that seemed like it would be so meagre when I was still working turned out to be quite adequate. So instead of buying the usual "necessities" of life I opted for feeding my addiction. And I must add my wife has no issue with this addiction, probably recognizing that there are much worse ones! ;)

Jack
My aunt told me that when she retired, her take-home pay nearly doubled. For most of us it is less extreme. Still what people often don’t realize is that in the US when you quit having earned income, you no longer are paying payroll or self-employment taxes. And when you quit saving for retirement, those payments are not going out. For middle income folks, that can be like a 20% or 30% raise if the income stays about the same. When you are no longer supporting kids or elderly parents, needs can go down very fast.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Upvote 0

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,980
2,602
Alberta, Canada
My aunt told me that when she retired, her take-home pay nearly doubled. For most of us it is less extreme. Still what people often don’t realize is that in the US when you quit having earned income, you no longer are paying payroll or self-employment taxes. And when you quit saving for retirement, those payments are not going out. For middle income folks, that can be like a 20% or 30% raise if the income stays about the same. When you are no longer supporting kids or elderly parents, needs can go down very fast.
In our present unnecessary Canadian election the politicians are promising to spend billions more after already digging the biggest hole since WW2 so maybe in time we won't have any pensions.:unsure:

I think it's time CR gave us some more substantial rumours so we don't have to stray so far off topic! :)

Jack
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 user
Upvote 0

Billybob

800mm f/11 because a cellphone isn't long enough!
May 22, 2016
268
537
Isn't it just human behaviour to take shots at the top whatever, especially in sports, and anonymity helps shield the pests from public shaming although Neuro tries hard. Observe carefully in any forum and you learn a lot about psychology, especially egos and don't be fooled, CR has had its share of unbecoming behaviour from time to time. For true friendly calm, visit the bird thread. :)

Jack
I'll second that. The bird forums are a very nice, calm place in which to hang out. I also agree with your more recent comment. The debates in this thread have gotten more than stale. Definitely, "much ado about nothing".
 
Upvote 0

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,678
2,592
I don’t know any photographers who use Sony cameras. I know of only one other photographer who shoots Canon. He is the friend to whom I gave my S95 and S120. All of the other photographers have Nikon DSLRs, both amateur and pro.

So common sense tells us that we can conclude market share from that.
Similar situation here (Colorado, USA). Judging from what I see around me Nikon owns 80% of the market.

That may even be true--locally. I don't know; I generally see global (or sometimes Japan only) numbers posted here.

But that's the whole point; I cannot judge global numbers from what I see around me; I can't even judge my city's numbers, much less the state, much less the USA.

And anyone who does so anyway is a window-licking fool.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Upvote 0
Jan 27, 2020
826
1,796
This is rather curious. So a company that employs smart and sophisticated marketing is to be despised for employing good business practices? Do you have problems with Canon and Nikon providing free loaners to Pros at major sporting events? Frankly, I wish all companies would employ these practices. Sony makes damn good gear as does Canon and Nikon. If the cameras were bad, then the attempts to curry favor with influencers would backfire when YTubers get frustrating with cameras that just don't perform on par with the competition (hint: Nikon, this comment is for you). Maybe if that class action lawsuit is successful, I'll change my opinion, but I'm not seeing a lot of reports of Sony cameras failing or being more unreliable than other brands despite their lesser level of weather sealing.

Criticize the brand for poor performance or lack of desired features, but disliking a brand for trying to get information out to the public just doesn't make sense to me.
I have no problem with smart and sophisticated marketing. I do have a problem with fake reviews and the well organized troll network that Sony has. Yes, I have no idea if Sony is involved in any way, but it is odd that there seems to be no equivalent Nikon troll or Canon troll network, immediately rushing out video reviews and other online content - often using the exact same phrasing and text. That aside, having owned (briefly) both the A7 and the A7 II, they were definitely poor performers despite their industry leading specs. Both cameras badly underexposed by a stop or more. The viewfinders (which I'm sure had class leading specs) were dark and below par compared to the competition. The ergonomics (as many have noted) were very poor, in my opinion.

I think that Sony's problems with sensor dust have been widely documented. Some well respected photographers have made some interesting observations. Ming Thein, in his review of the Sony A7 II says: "

I’ve already got stubborn dust spots on mine that cannot be dislodged with blower or shaker. It will have to be wet cleaned, but the sensor suspension mechanism is delicate and this makes me very nervous. Note: in four years of multiple Olympus bodies and over 100,000 images plus lens changes with no heed for ambient dust, I’ve never had to wet clean a sensor. Or even use a blower, for that matter.
From Graham Lloyd's blog:

Today, I used Sony’s clean sensor feature, which vibrates like heck for a second or so, then requires you to turn off the camera. Of all the visible dust, not a single speck budged in spite of doing so 10 times. This is not stuck-on dust as dabbing with a micro fiber cloth proves.

Other camera vendors use ultrasonic cleaning, and that works pretty well. Not Sony—it’s a total joke, a placebo checklist useless feature. Shame on Sony for such worthless tech.

Those are older reviews, but if you think that the problem has now been solved. Photoblogger says this in an article from Aug. 2, 2021:

There are lots of fantastic things about Sony cameras. But one of the biggest flaws they all have is build quality. Do they work in the rain? Sure. Do they get dusty? Oh yeah. Unfortunately, it’s a problem with lots of Sony cameras. We just got done reviewing a few lenses on Sony bodies, and we ran into lots of dust issues. And guess what? Those issues seldom happen with other camera systems.

And…

This, of course, has lead our team to believe that there’s an inherent fault with the mount. This hasn’t happened with Canon, Panasonic, Leica, or Nikon cameras when using weather-sealed lenses.

If I thought Sony cameras were made as well as Canon or Olympus (the two brands I have used for years) I would be glad to say so, even if I have a dislike for their trolling activity. But I don't believe they even come particularly close when it comes to quality.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Upvote 0

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,678
2,592
I have no problem with smart and sophisticated marketing. I do have a problem with fake reviews and the well organized troll network that Sony has.

<snip>
By the sound of it their marketing (including the specs that leave out key details, and the trolls) exists to compensate for a factually inferior product.

I generally don't trust companies that put a huge emphasis on marketing; obviously some is necessary. If you're having to hire trolls, you have something to hide.

Realtors [at least in the US] tend to put their own picture into their ads; I could never understand why but it always struck me as a bit cheesy.
 
Upvote 0

stevelee

FT-QL
CR Pro
Jul 6, 2017
2,383
1,064
Davidson, NC
I think it's time CR gave us some more substantial rumours so we don't have to stray so far off topic! :)

Jack
Even my thoughts, questions, and desires related to new equipment are off-topic here. I’m discussing my next Mac and wondering whether I would use a medium format Fuji enough to buy one. (I realize the thing they have in common is how much of an upgrade is needed to be worth the trouble and thousands of dollars.)
 
Upvote 0
Jul 21, 2010
31,096
12,857
But that's the whole point; I cannot judge global numbers from what I see around me; I can't even judge my city's numbers, much less the state, much less the USA.
Yeah, but if you followed a few people from a few different places on Instagram, then you’d totally know, with pinpoint accuracy, the current state of the ILC market. ;)
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 users
Upvote 0
Genuine question: what is the evidence for paid Sony trolls claimed by various posters?
Obviously none of us will have direct evidence of the Sony trolls being paid. And of course, it could just be a case of groupthink, where a trend gets started. But there is still an army of Sony trolls out there.

But here is what I have observed. There is a lot of message discipline among the troll army. They tend to repeat the same talking points in the same way.

I am a political junkie and it is known that good political campaigns conduct their messaging on the opponent in a certain way. First, stay on message and have all messengers repeat the same thing. Second, find something to spin in a negative way on the opponent, even if it is really a positive. The funny example was given by LBJ who said if he could walk on water, his opponents would criticize him for not being able to swim.

I saw an example of this with the 1DX III launch. It was weird, because in several different forums different Sony trolls criticized the 1DXIII for not being able to do 6K RAW video. Now it was an odd point, because at the time no other camera could do what this one could with RAW video, up to 5.5K. No Sony could touch it. But you had all sorts of trolls trying to make it seem like there was this big deficiency with the 1DX III. Now they quieted down on that as many told them that Sony couldn't even do 5.5K RAW, or any internal RAW for that matter.

But we see this all of the time with the Sony trolls. So we don't know if they are paid, but the army of Sony trolls exists, and it swarms with efficiency and message discipline.
 
Upvote 0