Is September 14 the day we finally get the official Canon EOS R3 announcement?

[entoman]

I've seen many famous photographers on social media switch to Sony in the past few years.

In the early days of the a7 series, quite a lot of people bought Sony bodies on which to use their Canon glass. Many of them saw it as a stop gap measure, while they were waiting for what they really wanted, i.e. a FF Canon MILC. Sony bodies slowly improved and those that stayed with Sony were rewarded with excellent cameras such as the a7Riv, a9 and now the a1. Others dumped their Sony bodies as soon as Canon launched the R5. Those are the facts.

But please - trying to justify your argument by saying that "many famous photographers on social media" have switched to Sony, is extraordinarily naive -

Did they buy their Sony gear with their own money? Or whether it was given to them by Sony in exchange for "influencing" easily led people into switching brands.? Are these famous photographers well paid Sony Ambassadors? *My impression* is that most of them are well paid "shills"...

Canon of course have their own paid ambassadors too, but *my impression* is that they tend to be more transparent about their relationship with the manufacturer.

 

[unfocused]

In the early days of the a7 series, quite a lot of people bought Sony bodies on which to use their Canon glass. Many of them saw it as a stop gap measure, while they were waiting for what they really wanted, i.e. a FF Canon MILC. Sony bodies slowly improved and those that stayed with Sony were rewarded with excellent cameras such as the a7Riv, a9 and now the a1. Others dumped their Sony bodies as soon as Canon launched the R5. Those are the facts.

But please - trying to justify your argument by saying that "many famous photographers on social media" have switched to Sony, is extraordinarily naive -

Did they buy their Sony gear with their own money? Or whether it was given to them by Sony in exchange for "influencing" easily led people into switching brands.? Are these famous photographers are well paid Sony Ambassadors? *My impression* is that most of them are well paid "shills"...

Canon of course have their own paid ambassadors too, but *my impression* is that they tend to be more transparent about their relationship with the manufacturer.

I suspect that a certain percentage of social media influencers switch things up simply to keep generating content, regardless of whether or not they get paid or compensated to do so. As anyone who reads CR knows, you have to keep feeding the content monster or people will quit clicking on your site.

 

[entoman]

I suspect that a certain percentage of social media influencers switch things up simply to keep generating content, regardless of whether or not they get paid or compensated to do so. As anyone who reads CR knows, you have to keep feeding the content monster or people will quit clicking on your site.

I would agree if you are talking about the guys who make instructional or brand-neutral videos, but I wouldn't classify them as "influencers". The purpose of the latter is to promote a particular brand. I'm sure also that *some* influencers genuinely believe in the product or brand they are promoting. My impression though, based on years of watching videos, and of reading the comment sections and forums on many of the "neutral" photography websites, is that a high percentage of the Sony fans (more so than fans of other brands) are so evangelical in their comments that they are either blinded by love, or are paid to make their comments.

 

[Ozarker]

Do you know what statistical inference is? People use this all the time and it's actually quite accurate. Lets say I follow 500 people in the industry all around the world. If 50 of those people have converted to sony, there's a very good chance the percentage of people that have converted to sony globally is around 10%. If I only followed local photographers this would not be an accurate representation. I feel like I'm a elementary school teacher today

Not

Besides, you leave out those who went from Sony to Canon completely. You fail to see the road runs two ways.

 

[AEWest]

Just wondering, do you work in the industry? Do you follow the industry? I shoot 60-65 weddings per year(in my free time - I'm a software engineer). I follow dozens of photographers, both local and world renowned. I don't know about sports photography, but I can tell you first hand that sony has been stealing users left and right from canon and nikon over the years in the wedding industry. I've noticed a shift back when the R5 came out www.instagram.com/samosphotography

I am of the opinion that wedding photography would be amongst the first sectors of the pro industry to embrace MILC cameras due to their superior video features vs DSLRs.
Its a YouTube world, and wedding photographers must have extensive video and still image capability to be competitive.
Now that Canon and to a lesser extent Nikon are incorporating strong video features into their mirrorless offerings, Sony's initial lead in mirrorless is declining rapidly.

 

[rick1]

Not

Besides, you leave out those who went from Sony to Canon completely. You fail to see the road runs two ways.

I haven't seen a single person that has gone from sony mirrorless to a canon dslr. The majority of sony converts I've seen were within a year of the a7iii release. I've seen lots of people go back to canon after the R5 was released

 

[Ozarker]

I haven't seen a single person that has gone from sony mirrorless to a canon dslr. The majority of sony converts I've seen were within a year of the a7iii release. I've seen lots of people go back to canon after the R5 was released

Yeah, we ain't just talking dslr. But, just because you don't know something happened, doesn't mean it didn't... That's the reason for Neuro's emphasis on actual hard data. Your feelings, hunches, guesses and such mean nothing. What your best buddy did means nothing. Point is you made claims based on feelings and hunches. You made zero claims based on actual data. You even bring up a statistically insignificant...

 

[neuroanatomist]

Do you know what statistical inference is? People use this all the time and it's actually quite accurate. Lets say I follow 500 people in the industry all around the world. If 50 of those people have converted to sony, there's a very good chance the percentage of people that have converted to sony globally is around 10%. If I only followed local photographers this would not be an accurate representation.

I do, evidently with a far deeper understanding than yours. One of the tenets of drawing such an inference is that to be valid, your sample must be selected in a random or systematic random manner from the population being evaluated. You stated, “I follow dozens of photographers, both local and world renowned.” That is not a random or systematic random sample of wedding photographers. Those are people you either know, or have personally chosen to follow.

Your ‘sample’ represents a very biased and intentional selection, and thus cannot be used to draw an inference about ‘wedding photographers’.

Then there’s the fact that you previously attempted to re-frame your initial claim to narrow it to the ‘professional’ or ‘prosumer’ market. Not surprisingly, you’re now trying to re-re-frame your claim to apply to just the wedding photography market…and you’ve failed just as badly at that as your previous attempt.

I feel like I'm a elementary school teacher today

I would honestly like to believe that your comprehension of basic data interpretation and logic is insufficient to qualify you as a primary/elementary educator. Sadly, I suspect most educational systems would consider you qualified, which is why STEM education in this country is in such a pathetic state.

 

[rick1]

I do, evidently with a far deeper understanding than yours. One of the tenets of drawing such an inference is that to be valid, your sample must be selected in a random or systematic random manner from the population being evaluated. You stated, “I follow dozens of photographers, both local and world renowned.” That is not a random or systematic random sample of wedding photographers. Those are people you either know, or have personally chosen to follow.

Your ‘sample’ represents a very biased and intentional selection, and thus cannot be used to draw an inference about ‘wedding photographers’.

Then there’s the fact that you previously attempted to re-frame your initial claim to narrow it to the ‘professional’ or ‘prosumer’ market. Not surprisingly, you’re now trying to re-re-frame your claim to apply to just the wedding photography market…and you’ve failed just as badly at that as your previous attempt.


I would honestly like to believe that your comprehension of basic data interpretation and logic is insufficient to qualify you as a primary/elementary educator. Sadly, I suspect most educational systems would consider you qualified, which is why STEM education in this country is in such a pathetic state.

Here's some common sense for you. Every single sony user you see that has been in this field for over 7 years IS a canon or nikon convert. No professional photographer used sony cameras in their infancy, 99% of the people who use them today used to use nikon or canon. There are a few people that use other camera brands but the numbers aren't significant. So you see all of those sony users? That's how many people canon or nikon lost. There's some common sense for you without statistical information to back it up. Again, how are you professionally involved in this industy? Or are you a hobbyist?

 

[Billybob]

I haven't seen a single person that has gone from sony mirrorless to a canon dslr. The majority of sony converts I've seen were within a year of the a7iii release. I've seen lots of people go back to canon after the R5 was released

EDIT: I misread Rick's post. See my subsequent post below.

I guess you haven't seen me. I picked up the R5 because I was dissatisfied with the A9II's low MP count. Clearly stacked-sensors and fast readout is the solution to getting the best AF and tracking for wildlife photography, however, the R5's resolution trumped the superior AF of the A9 cameras in my book. I thought that I'd shoot Sony side-by-side with the R5, but I strongly prefer the R45 and now very rarely pick up my A7R bodies.

Note, I would have probably gone for the A1 if it had been released before or at the same time as the R5. However, that ship has sailed, and I'm willing to wait for a high-MP body with a stacked sensor from Canon or Nikon for a variety of reasons.

 

[rick1]

I guess you haven't seen me. I picked up the R5 because I was dissatisfied with the A9II's low MP count. Clearly stacked-sensors and fast readout is the solution to getting the best AF and tracking for wildlife photography, however, the R5's resolution trumped the superior AF of the A9 cameras in my book. I thought that I'd shoot Sony side-by-side with the R5, but I strongly prefer the R45 and now very rarely pick up my A7R bodies.

As I said a ton of people went back to canon when the R5 was released, me included. The R5 blows away everything sony has to offer except the a1

 

[Billybob]

As I said a ton of people went back to canon when the R5 was released, me included. The R5 blows away everything sony has to offer except the a1

Oops! Bad reading comprehension on my part. No, I didn't go back to Canon DSLR from Sony. I sold my last Canon DSLR body in 2016 and have not seen anything out of Canon DSLRs that would tempt me since.

 

[Ozarker]

As I said a ton of people went back to canon when the R5 was released, me included. The R5 blows away everything sony has to offer except the a1

Ton. Now that's valuable information, and obviously the pulse of the industry. Don't get too caught up on that "pro" stuff, part timer. Professionals are part of the market, but a small part compared to enthusiasts with deep pockets. Glad to know a "ton" switched... Whatever the hell that means. It feels strangely close to a teen yelling, "But mom! Everyone else gets to do it!" Yeah. Means nothing. BTW: my first pro use of a digital camera was a Sony Mavica way back in 1997. That was 24 years ago. Yeah, back in the digital infancy. So again, your knee jerk generalizations leave you short again. Stick to facts when trying to be factual

 

[rick1]

Ton. Now that's valuable information, and obviously the pulse of the industry. Don't get too caught up on that "pro" stuff, part timer. Professionals are part of the market, but a small part compared to enthusiasts with deep pockets. Glad to know a "ton" switched... Whatever the hell that means. It feels strangely close to a teen yelling, "But mom! Everyone else gets to do it!" Yeah. Means nothing.

Oh geez I apologize I don't have charts for you. lol

 

[rick1]

Oops! Bad reading comprehension on my part. No, I didn't go back to Canon DSLR from Sony. I sold my last Canon DSLR body in 2016 and have not seen anything out of Canon DSLRs that would tempt me since.

Your experience and decisions are exactly what I've seen all over the industry. But I don't have charts and stats to prove the numbers so the observation is not relevant it seems lol

 

[neuroanatomist]

Here's some common sense for you. Every single sony user you see that has been in this field for over 7 years IS a canon or nikon convert. No professional photographer used sony cameras in their infancy, 99% of the people who use them today used to use nikon or canon. There are a few people that use other camera brands but the numbers aren't significant. So you see all of those sony users? That's how many people canon or nikon lost. There's some common sense for you without statistical information to back it up. Again, how are you professionally involved in this industy? Or are you a hobbyist?

Considering the remarkably high failure rate for wedding photographers (see sba.gov, in the US it’s estimated at 85% failing in three years), there aren’t many wedding photographers who’ve been in the field for over 7 years. Yet it remains a popular profession to enter, because of the low startup costs (a camera kit, even a high end one, costs far less than a physical plant or storefront). Given the high turnover in the wedding photography industry, and the ‘buzz’ about Sony in the media (driven in substantial part by Sony’s effective PR), it’s ‘common sense’ that a portion of Sony FF MILCs have been bought by new wedding photographers, not those switching from Canon or Nikon.

Multiple blogs/guides on getting into the wedding photography business recommend an APS-C camera like a Sony a6400, Canon 90D, or a Fuji as a starter camera, in addition to the logical FF choices. It seems likely that someone following that advice and starting with an APS-C Sony alpha would upgrade to a Sony FF.

As was previously pointed out, most of the FF MILC market in recent years comprises enthusiasts, not professionals.

So perhaps you’d like to re- re- re-frame your claim to refer to successful wedding photographers with careers spanning more than 7 years? Or maybe be honest and just narrow it to you and some people you follow. Probably not though, as that would require you to have a modicum of ‘common sense’.

 

[rick1]

Considering the remarkably high failure rate for wedding photographers (see sba.gov, in the US it’s estimated at 85% failing in three years), there aren’t many wedding photographers who’ve been in the field for over 7 years. Yet it remains a popular profession to enter, because of the low startup costs (a camera kit, even a high end one, costs far less than a physical plant or storefront). Given the high turnover in the wedding photography industry, and the ‘buzz’ about Sony in the media (driven in substantial part by Sony’s effective PR), it’s ‘common sense’ that a portion of Sony FF MILCs have been bought by new wedding photographers, not those switching from Canon or Nikon.

Multiple blogs/guides on getting into the wedding photography business recommend an APS-C camera like a Sony a6400, Canon 90D, or a Fuji as a starter camera, in addition to the logical FF choices. It seems likely that someone following that advice and starting with an APS-C Sony alpha would upgrade to a Sony FF.

As was previously pointed out, most of the FF MILC market in recent years comprises enthusiasts, not professionals.

So perhaps you’d like to re- re- re-frame your claim to refer to successful wedding photographers with careers spanning more than 7 years? Or maybe be honest and just narrow it to you and some people you follow. Probably not though, as that would require you to have a modicum of ‘common sense’.

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the majority of successful photographers (at least in my area) have been doing this for 7+ years.

Enthusiasts don't have money to buy $hit lol. Which is why you use a 1DX and an Eos R. The majority of the market that actually buys new cameras are professionals.

 

[neuroanatomist]

the majority of successful photographers (at least in my area) have been doing this for 7+ years.

Wow, nine photographers. That’s impressive. LOL. Thanks for confirming that the people you know are most definitely not representative of the wedding photography market. Not that your claims could be made less bogus than they were from the start.

Enthusiasts don't have money to buy $hit lol. Which is why you use a 1DX and an Eos R. The majority of the market that actually buys new cameras are professionals.

Now you’re moving beyond self-embarrassment and into asinine foolishness. Well done!

 

[unfocused]

This is one reason why I can't seem to quit CanonRumors. While I often find @neuroanatomist annoying (he knows I do) and often enjoy tangling with him (he knows I do), I really enjoy it when he hooks a big one. Congrats, Neuro you've got @rick1 on the line and I know you are just playing with him until he wears himself out. I'm going to go put some popcorn in the microwave.

 

[rick1]

Wow, nine photographers. That’s impressive. LOL. Thanks for confirming that the people you know are most definitely not representative of the wedding photography market. Not that your claims could be made less bogus than they were from the start.


Now you’re moving beyond self-embarrassment and into asinine foolishness. Well done!

Those were 9 photographers off the top of my head bud. And I was an enthusiast once. I rarely bought a camera and when I did I had to save up considerably, compared to today, I bought 2 sony FX3's, 2 sony A7SIIIs, and an R5 just in the past year or so, and then an R3 soon! You are the foolish one bro. I am the one with common sense