1Ds Mark IV & 5D3 Thoughts & Lens Patent

[Canon Rumors Guy]

<strong>Clues about Canon’s Plan?</strong>

As we know, a lot is being said about the demise of the 1Ds Mark III. It’s disappearing from stock at stores, from Canon’s own web store and anywhere else you can think of.</p>
<p>So what gives?</p>
<p>I’m told Canon may be quietly letting the 1Ds Mark III sail away into the sunset without a replacement right away. The 5D Mark II cannibalized a lot of the 1Ds3′s sales since it hit the market and became one of the best selling dslrs ever. The people that wanted a 1Ds3 for it’s full frame and build quality have probably already ponied up and bought the thing.</p>
<p>Canon will put larger differences in resolution between the 5D Mark III and 1Ds Mark IV.</p>
<p>I’m told the 5D Mark III will be first and be a slight upgrade in megapixels. 28 seems to be the number I keep hearing.</p>
<p>The big megapixel cameras from Canon or Nikon won’t be until the end of 2011 and into early 2012. Expect a big jump in megapixels above whatever the 5D Mark III turns out to be. 42mp from Nikon, around the same for Canon. None of this is written in stone yet I’m told, Q2 2012 is also a possibility.</p>
<p><strong>CR’s Take</strong>

As I said yesterday, I’m cautious about anything 1Ds Mark IV related. This information seems completely plausible to me. Eventually Canon has to unleash a camera that shows their financial muscle in R&D and manufacturing. A 5D Mark III will bring in a boatload of revenue, more than a 1Ds camera ever would. I think we’ll see it first. I have been wrong before though.</p>
<p>I have posted that a new <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/12/the-canon-high-end-cr2/">1D would come in 2011 before a new 1Ds</a>, that could definitely be a stop gap for a full frame pro body. I’m not sure if they solved the issue of not being able to do 10fps with a full frame sensor, 9fps was possible when the 1D Mark IV launched.</p>
<p>However, there is a part of me thinks Canon is still behind the APS-H sensor and thinks there is a market for it.</p>
<p><strong>16-35 f/2-2.8 Patent

<a href="http://photorumors.com/2011/01/20/canon-patents-16-35mm-f2-2-8-lens/">PR</a> </strong>via<strong> <a href="http://egami.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2011-01-20#more">egami</a> </strong>posted a patent to a lens that I think already exists. It’s exactly the same as the 16-35 f/2.8L II.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/02/canon-ef-s-17-55-f2-is-patent/">This f/2 zoom patent</a> looks different.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong>

 

[gmrza]

As Canon/Nikon head to 40+ megapixels, it becomes an interesting question as to who needs those resolutions. A lot of photogs will need to upgrade their computers and storage in order to support a workflow on image files of 40-50Mbytes from such a camera.

Given that 20"x30" (or possibly slightly larger) prints are entirely viable off a 5DmkII/1DsIII, it would seem that a 40Mp camera is hunting more in medium format territory. That would seem to suggest that a 40Mp 1Ds4 would squeeze Hasselblad/Phase One and friends into an even smaller niche. - You would literally only need a medium format body for large billboard work, or where a leaf shutter is essential (HSS TTL flash has already narrowed that niche). For most enthusiasts, 18MP is already overkill.
What I suspect photogs will be demanding, more and more, is for the manufacturers to focus on high ISO/low light performance, rather than adding more pixels. - This has, of course, been said time and time again already.
My view is that there will remain to be a market for crop frame sensors since they reduce the cost and weight of glass that sports and wildlife photogs need to carry around with them. There would probably be a lot of unhappy sports shooters if Canon discontinued the APS-H format.
Wedding/event photographers would probably settle on a 5DmkII at 28MP, while a 40MP+ 1DsIV would probably mainly be interesting to fashion/advertising types who haven't already abandoned their medium format gear.

 

[UngerPhotography]

As long as either Canon or Nikon can pump out those megapixels while keeping the image noise free, then I guess I wouldn't mind 38-42MP. Storage is getting cheaper by the day, and in a year or two, computers are going to be much faster as well.

I personally am far more interested in better, higher ISO images. 20mp is pretty solid for me as you can print pretty large with not much problem. Depending on the situation. I can shoot at 4000-6400 ISO and get good looking images (some may need some form of noise reduction). If I could shoot at 23-4 times that ISO and get similar or better results, that would sell me the next 1D day one even if it was only 20mp. Pixel count is only important to a certain extent. I think the shift needs to be made toward ISO for the moment until a larger pixel count can produce extremely clean image at the higher ISOs.

 

[gmrza]

As long as either Canon or Nikon can pump out those megapixels while keeping the image noise free, then I guess I wouldn't mind 38-42MP. Storage is getting cheaper by the day, and in a year or two, computers are going to be much faster as well.

I personally am far more interested in better, higher ISO images. 20mp is pretty solid for me as you can print pretty large with not much problem. Depending on the situation. I can shoot at 4000-6400 ISO and get good looking images (some may need some form of noise reduction). If I could shoot at 23-4 times that ISO and get similar or better results, that would sell me the next 1D day one even if it was only 20mp. Pixel count is only important to a certain extent. I think the shift needs to be made toward ISO for the moment until a larger pixel count can produce extremely clean image at the higher ISOs.

Another point, which I forgot to mention earlier, is that the current crop of L series lenses is really close to its limit when mated with a 1DsIII or 5DmkII. In fact, a number of currently available L series lenses are downright soft at the fringes on these bodies. I don't know how much of an increase in resolution you will actually get with a 40MP sensor over a 21MP sensor, even with a 70-200mm f/2.8L. I suspect the improvement may be marginal. (Medium format systems do still have an advantage in that respect.)
Canon would need to release an entirely new crop of lenses to really take advantage of a 40MP sensor (i.e. very expensive!)

As you said - low noise under high ISO/low light - that is what everyone wants. There is not much demand for more resolution.

 

[Justin]

5d first strategy makes more sense if they don't want to cannibalize sales again. I think a simultaneous release would work too so long as the products were differentiated properly. Still lacking faith on that score.

need more new lenses. 14-24 zoom. How about a 24-70 f 2.0 if you don't want to give us IS Canon? new 35 1.4 prime. 85 1.4. 90 tse refresh. 22-110 f4.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Canon would need to release an entirely new crop of lenses to really take advantage of a 40MP sensor (i.e. very expensive!)

Which they seem to be doing already - I'm guessing the resolution issue is a major driver of the 70-200 II, the new suertelephotos and extenders. That may also be why we haven't yet seen that fabled 24-70mm f/2.8L IS (or MkII if they decide not to include IS) - they made prototypes for testing (accounting for some of the rumors) and found the resolution wasn't quite high enough yet, so the design had to be modified. Just my 2¢.

 

[adamkozlowski]

Oh well, 1Ds IV should be oriented more at commercial and studio shooters (IMHO) than the 5D3, which should be more a lightweight photojournalist/wedding camera with excellent high ISO. 1Ds IV should have a lower real ISO base, starting at 50 and real 16bit per channel RGB output with very good dynamic range. This is what commercial and art photographers need and want, without turning to Leica S2, Pentax 645D or Hassy, PhaseOne and Leaf. A bump of 5mp is enough, but expecting 5D3 to have 26mp, i believe the 1Ds4 will reach 31mp to be in the medium format ballpark. Also, 1Ds4 should have a better screen than 5D2 - something like a color-corrected Canon's take on the Retina Display.

5D2, even though it had huge success, it was not because it's such a great camera, but because it has the hyped video feature and is the only full frame Canon camera to have video. Actually, i currently have the 5D2, 5D and 7D and i sold the 1Ds2 not so long ago and I must say that the 5D2 is far from a perfect camera and surely is not my favourite. The AF is awful, it is plagued by banding and structured noise (even at low ISOs in shadows), the 5D2 is definitely not a camera of choice for serious studio work. It's "fine", but not "excellent". And the video function, in the light of T2i or 60D is just laughable nowadays, because the lack of 50/60p is crippling creativity, even though the full-frame is what brings out the "character" of many old lenses which looks so good on film.

IMHO (and very subjectively) the 5D3 must have the following (i don't care for anything else, 21mp and usable 12800 iso is fine with me):
- be the first Canon to have 1080p in all frame rates, from 24 to 60
- have a twist-swivel LCD, preferably even a bit bigger than it is now
- better AF (like the 7D but maybe one that would actually work well, unlike in the 7D)

For fun, Canon might add:
- pay the MagicLantern guy to put all the pro video functions in the firmware
- provide an AF mode with memorized lens focus positions switched with -/+ buttons or something which would be perfect for video and some specialized applications
- provide an SDK to developers so that specialized apps could be written for the camera

 

[OnteoEOS]

As usual this is just sport guessing

The fact a 1Ds body is coming seems clear, how is it going to be? By someone I tend to believe when puts a word in fredmiranda, there is an interesting technology going on in the new sensor in the new 1Ds body. No idea what, just very impatient to see it working and going to lower level bodies ASAP.

My wallet seems to say I just won't be allowed to get either a 1Ds or a brand new 5D III when they are released. So I'm afraid my 5D will stay with me for a while more.

If 6 months after its release the 5DIII exhanges around 2000 Euros I might be able to get one...but not before. :'(

 

[GMCPhotographics]

The thing is Canon writes a design brief for each camera line. This Brief explains the target market and scope of the camera. If the scope changes and then a whole new brief has to be written, this is why the year on year upgrades feel so generic. They are conforming to a forumla stated in the original design brief. If the new 1Ds camera really is goign to be conceptually different (ie a different brief) then I'd expect the 5DII and 7D's design brief to change too.

The 5D range was always intended to be a 1Ds grade full frame sensor placed in a pro-sumer body, with 3-4fps. Generally, it's supposed to be launched a year after the 1Ds version, using a simular density sensor. But that's the problem, the 1Ds replacement is very late and it's affecting the 5D's replacement. I dare say that the 5D's brief will change somewhat due to their simular release date.
The 5D is not a sports oriented model and that's why it's AF system isn't very good at AI Servo mode, but it's excellent in one shot mode. Many people have critisied the 5D range since the D700's launch which has Nikon's generic pro AF system that seems to be cropping up in every camera that comes from Nikon. Currently The 5D's MP count is calculated by a slightly lower data throughput of the the current Digic processor / 4fps. So if a single Digic V can offer around 130mp/s then we end up with a 31mp camera at 4fps. We saw a fps jump between the mkI and II, so it's not unreasonable to consider the mkIII to be a 5fps camera. In which case our cake is cut 25mp/5fps. There is also more through put available with the Digic V, so 28mp/5fps isn't unreasonable too. Canon seem to throttle back the 5D's Digic through put. If we take the 7D's thoughput (18x8) and apply it to the 5DIII, we get 28.8mp@5fps.

The 7D's brief is totally different to the 5D, it's a high frame rate 1.6 crop camera with a myriad of different AF options. I've found it very accurate, particularly with a single point AF and the nine surrounding AF helpers in AI Servo. I have tracked a buzzard approaching with a long lens with ease.
If the 1Ds series is changing dramatically, then it will provoke a whole new opt tier re-brief. 1Ds/1D/5D and 7D. Currently it's MP specs are divided thus: max data through put of the latest dual digic Processor / 5 fps. That's it, plain and simple.
The 7D uses a dual Digic4, which was available at the time. A 5DIII could use the same tech or use a single Digic5 which will have the same data though put as the dual digic 4. A dual digic 4 in peak performance is good for 160mp/s, so a 1Ds 32mp @ 5fps is quite possible.

I don't understand why the 7D attracts AF critisms. It's served me well last year, but it is very complicated to set up right and fine tune. Sure it's not a 1D series, but it's a lot better than many forums are claiming.

 

[Mr.Magic]

Still hoping the 5D3 becomes quite high level, so 9D can be released: 16MP FF, 9 AF points, 5fps, pop-up flash --> great high iso's

 

[neuroanatomist]

The 5D range was always intended to be a 1Ds grade full frame sensor placed in a pro-sumer body, with 3-4fps. Generally, it's supposed to be launched a year after the 1Ds version, using a simular density sensor.

Has Canon stated this, or are you generalizing based on n=2?

 

[Catastrophile]

if
1) 5D cannibalizes 1Ds sales, and
2) a traditional 1Ds is just too expensive to have good sales in these difficult economic times, and
3) the next 1D is going to be FF and probably merge with 1Ds,
then maybe Canon should just have 2 full frame cameras beyond the 7D-60D-550D subframe range, one budget FF and that's obviously the 5D, the other should be a sort of 3D that is considerably higher specc'ed than 5D but also considerably less costly than 1D/1Ds. APS-H should be delegated to 7DII, and 70D should restore the xxD line to its previous glory and maybe add more 7D features as it would then be the 1.6x flagship. So the lineup according to this should be something like: 3D (FF), 5DIII (FF), 7DII (1.3x), 70D (1.6x), 600D (1.6x), 1100D (1.6x).

 

[Flake]

One issue which hasn't been covered is the sheer cost of developing & manufacturing two seperate FF sensors. It makes a lot of sense to just run one and seperate the two cameras with features & build quality - it hasn't been very successful with the 1Ds MkIII & the 5D MkII launched very soon after with an upgraded sensor (microlenses).

There need to be a good 18 months between the launches to allow the trickle down of technology, but now everyone is expecting the 5D MkIII immenently. I for one do not need files that large and even with loads of memory & powerful processors it's going to take longer to process than 21MP does. Then there's the memory cards, where an 8GB card is just about enough, it's going to need 16GB to store the same.

Personally I'd rather have a better dynamic range, and more fps, 3 isn't enough, and improved auto focus & metering, a viewfinder curtain would be nice too!

 

[pedro]

if
1) 5D cannibalizes 1Ds sales, and
2) a traditional 1Ds is just too expensive to have good sales in these difficult economic times, and
3) the next 1D is going to be FF and probably merge with 1Ds,
then maybe Canon should just have 2 full frame cameras beyond the 7D-60D-550D subframe range, one budget FF and that's obviously the 5D, the other should be a sort of 3D that is considerably higher specc'ed than 5D but also considerably less costly than 1D/1Ds. APS-H should be delegated to 7DII, and 70D should restore the xxD line to its previous glory and maybe add more 7D features as it would then be the 1.6x flagship. So the lineup according to this should be something like: 3D (FF), 5DIII (FF), 7DII (1.3x), 70D (1.6x), 600D (1.6x), 1100D (1.6x).

nice idea. but if it comes to canon marketing, don't know what happens to that.

 

[jeremymerriam]

The megapixel race is getting boring. As a working photographer, I could care less about megapixels, iso, and even color when it comes to client delivery. Most of my clients would never notice the difference. However, for my own needs when it comes to shooting for myself, all dslrs just plain suck compared to a medium format film or digitalback.

I still shoot with a 5d because it does the job. I am waiting on the the mark3 version only because it makes the most sense to have a 2nd body doing wedding work and my lowlight gigs.

I cannot really give Canon nor Nikon any real respect until they can take they training wheels off (AA filter), stop relying on higher megapixels to sell stuff, and focus all of they attention on the details (DR, and color). I would be just as happy to be shooting with a 15mp camera for the rest of my life involving professional work and personal work if Canon actually shot clean sharp images. Each new camera they come out with still disappoints that that regard :/

 

[Macadameane]

Still hoping the 5D3 becomes quite high level, so 9D can be released: 16MP FF, 9 AF points, 5fps, pop-up flash --> great high iso's

The "9D" Sounds like the 5D mk II - so just buy that when stores are trying to make way for the 5D3

 

[Bob Howland]

<strong>Clues about Canon’s Plan?</strong>

<p>I have posted that a new <a href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/12/the-canon-high-end-cr2/\">1D would come in 2011 before a new 1Ds</a>, that could definitely be a stop gap for a full frame pro body. I’m not sure if they solved the issue of not being able to do 10fps with a full frame sensor, 9fps was possible when the 1D Mark IV launched.</p>
<p>However, there is a part of me thinks Canon is still behind the APS-H sensor and thinks there is a market for it.</p>

You've also posted that the next 1D may be the merger of the 1D and 1Ds line. We're getting some wildly conflicting rumors.

At the risk of repeating myself, consider the possibility that (1) a fairly low resolution professional FF body will be introduced on 31 January, but it won't be called a 1D (How about 9D?), (2) the 5DMk2 and especially the 5DMk3 will replace the 1DsMkIII as the high resolution pro body, but at a substantially lower price, (3) the 1DMk4 will temporarily remain in the lineup as the cropped pro sports camera, eventually to be replaced by the 7DMk2 and (4) the 1DMk5 will be the 50MP FF merged camera with an HD-SDI port and capable of pixel binning, in-camera cropping and HD video with 4:2:2 color coding (look at the XF105 camcorder for inspiration).

Where am I getting this stuff? Some time last year, a rumor sprang up, I've forgotten where but maybe here, about a new model to be introduced in March 2011, with 14.5MP, and optimized for video use, with high DR and extremely low noise at high ISOs. Also, Canon strongly implied at Canon Expo (I think that was its name) that the 50MP sensor they demonstrated in multiple prototypes would appear in a future product.

Oh well, we'll know soon enough.

 

[AJ]

Yes indeed the 5D2 seems to have cannibalized some of the 1Ds3 sales. Both are full-frame cams with high resolution and pro image quality.

However.

I know of one pro wedding photographer who says he'll never downgrade to 5D because of one reason: dual card slots. He figures that in case of card failure the cost to his business would be huge. To him this justifies the $8k expense.

Then there's the build and weather sealing. If you're a pro going to shoot in Iraq, you'll choose the 1Ds. Period.

$8k may seem a lot to amateurs, and that includes myself. I'm an amateur and I'll never own a 1Ds. But for a pro the expense is relatively minor compared to typical business expenses. Think of starting a business and having to buy a store, a delivery vehicle, inventory, advertising campaigns. Those are major expenses.

 

[traveller]

The pressure on the 1Ds Mk3 replacement comes not only from the bottem, but also from the top. The Pentax 645D brings MF cameras within reach of the budget of 1Ds Mk3 and D3x potential buyer. The 645D blows away the current 35mm DSLRs for quality and if you aren't shooting action or in a very hostile environment, who cares about the AF andstructural strangth advantages?

 

[Bob Howland]

I know of one pro wedding photographer who says he'll never downgrade to 5D because of one reason: dual card slots. He figures that in case of card failure the cost to his business would be huge. To him this justifies the $8k expense.

Then there's the build and weather sealing. If you're a pro going to shoot in Iraq, you'll choose the 1Ds. Period.

Actually, I'd probably choose the 1DMk4 or Nikon D3s. I know a couple wedding photographers who ditched their 5DMk2's for Nikon D700's, mostly due to color issues at fairly low light levels. One in particular looked long and hard at the D3 because of the dual-card issue but ended up buying the D700 instead. The Canon Xf100/105/300/305 pro camcorders have dual CF slots but can't record to both cards simultaneously.