Canon’s Official Full Frame Mirrorless Announcement Will Come After Photokina [CR2]

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,184
160
Canada
So the EF40mm f2.8 is as about small as one can go. Why is there any reason to think that a shorter flange distance will enable smaller lenses at any length above 40mm? Again, how much of a size reduction is possible with a new mount with a shorter flange difference and is it enough to have practical value? (The practical value would vary from prison to person.)
You can make lenses shorter, but it makes chromatic aberration worse.... correct me if I am wrong, but people go FF for quality and most will not trade quality for size.....
 

BillB

EOS Rebel T7i
May 11, 2017
788
53
You can make lenses shorter, but it makes chromatic aberration worse.... correct me if I am wrong, but people go FF for quality and most will not trade quality for size.....
And if they are willing to trade quality for smaller size why would they spend the money for FF?
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D Mark IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,010
220
Yup, not very- after all this time, they’re still afraid to enable high quality 4K video on their cameras. But they enable a crippled version so they can put the 4K moniker on the box for marketing purposes.

Shameful.
Based on several overviews I have read over the time, the issue is not that 'they chosee not to' but that they do not have the processors capable of managing the data flow to take FF and down res to 4k. Canon want/need to have full control over the supply chain and that includes making their own sensors and processors. Although some will see this as a mistake, it does not seem to have hurt them so far.
Shameful? I would say not. Wise marketing move? That is a different matter.
 
Jan 25, 2017
144
24
I don't know whether it would be 'smart' but it is certainly a valid tactic. However it is not one that I have recognised Canon as having done in the past so I don't think it will happen here.
There are rumours that Sony is waiting to announce some mega-spec camera soon after Canon and Nikon announce theirs as a real spoiler. I think where Sony have the edge at the moment is not so much the sensors as the processors they are producing - if you have the edge in processors you can move more data more quickly which opens the possibility of something high-MP images at as yet unseen frames per second, or video with high frame rate. The challenge they have is cooling the damned thing and that will likely mean a larger camera which they have shied away from so far...

Interesting, I heard that Sony rumor as well from other un-related channels. Brushed it off, but hearing it here makes me wonder.
 

AlanF

EOS 5DS R
Aug 16, 2012
3,937
184
I have been trying out all-in-one zoom cameras to accompany our 5DSR-5DIV-100--400mmII-400mmDOII for our big safari trip so we can be at the ready fror near and far without having to change lenses. One possibility is my M5, which with the 18-150 is very powerful, but it is not optimal for fast AF and picking out small subjects. So, I have been playing with the Sony RX10 IV, and have been blown away by its competence. The lens is sharp from 24-600mm, and its lock-on AF detects objects and sticks to them like glue - it grabs birds in flight, and it picks out stationary birds against backgrounds. Obviously, there are compromises with a 1" sensor. But here are some shots I took of a soap bubble at iso 1250-f/4 and 600mm equivalent. It was drifting across the river and the camera never lost perfect focus once. The first is a crop, and the second the full-size reduced ~2x. Now, I want Canon to match this focussing ability so I can use my lenses with new bodies.
SoapBubble_DSC01009-DxO_crop.jpg
SoapBubble_DSC01022-DxO_SoapBubble_punt.jpg
 

transpo1

EOS Rebel SL2
Jan 12, 2011
608
29
Yet somehow, the EOS M series became the best-selling MILC line globally before having 4K on the box. Because, you know, specs are so important.
Yet somehow, the EOS M series became the best-selling MILC line globally before having 4K on the box. Because, you know, specs are so important.
The best-selling- maybe. Flooding the market with cheap cameras does that. The most-renowned? Not at all.

So why would Canon add 4K video then? Tell me.
 

transpo1

EOS Rebel SL2
Jan 12, 2011
608
29
Sony could have driven Canon out of the ILC business if they'd had the vision and will to develop an extensive portfolio of lenses and better ergonomics.

Gee, the woulda-shoulda-coulda speculation game is fun, right. But we should probably stick to reality instead of making crap up.

Yes, it's important for Canon to protect the Cine from cannibalization by their consumer-level ILCs. There's a huge overlap in those markets, Canon really dodged a bullet there. That's also why the Cine lenses, even the ones with the EF mount, don't have autofocus – can't have those Cine lenses cannibalizing EF lens sales.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled reality.
Nice try- but you may be the only one who thinks Canon didn't try to protect Cinema EOS by leaving 4K video out of DSLRs. And, of course, protecting higher-tier DSLRs.

Unless of course, you want to go the "well, the processor couldn't handle it / it created heat issues" route. Could this honestly be the case we didn't see 4K in Canon DSLRs for years? Maybe. I think mostly Canon didn't want to risk cannibalization of the aforementioned lines / models.

Back to your myopic reality now, sir. Enjoy.
 

transpo1

EOS Rebel SL2
Jan 12, 2011
608
29
Based on several overviews I have read over the time, the issue is not that 'they chosee not to' but that they do not have the processors capable of managing the data flow to take FF and down res to 4k. Canon want/need to have full control over the supply chain and that includes making their own sensors and processors. Although some will see this as a mistake, it does not seem to have hurt them so far.
Shameful? I would say not. Wise marketing move? That is a different matter.
Well, I wouldn't be proud to ship a "4K" camera with a crop like that. So, yeah, it seems like a shameful marketing move.

Given the M50 has a new processor, I think the likely explanation is that Canon didn't want to exert the resources to make it work on a camera which sells that cheap. Also, their heart was just not in putting high quality 4K in it to begin with out of fear of cannibalizing higher-end models like the 5DIV (which ironically, also has a rather large crop).

They were getting so much crap for lack of 4K they included a cropped version as a token gesture.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D Mark IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,010
220
The best-selling- maybe. Flooding the market with cheap cameras does that. The most-renowned? Not at all.

So why would Canon add 4K video then? Tell me.
The M5 is much more expensive than the supposedly superior A6500, so it seems they are not 'flooding the market with cheap cameras - it seems Sony tried that and failed.
There is a difference between adding a functionality to meet some level of expectations and expecting that functionality to be the main reason to buy the camera. By your logic the reason Nikon added focus bracketing to their D850 was because that is an essential part of the buying specs for the public.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D Mark IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,010
220
Nice try- but you may be the only one who thinks Canon didn't try to protect Cinema EOS by leaving 4K video out of DSLRs. And, of course, protecting higher-tier DSLRs.

Unless of course, you want to go the "well, the processor couldn't handle it / it created heat issues" route. Could this honestly be the case we didn't see 4K in Canon DSLRs for years? Maybe. I think mostly Canon didn't want to risk cannibalization of the aforementioned lines / models.

Back to your myopic reality now, sir. Enjoy.
Let's get this right - when people criticise Canon for not having 4k, they are criticising Canon for not having FF video downsampled to 4k. And Canon is perfectly right when they say that when people are serious about video they will use the Cxxx models - 'serious' video on DSLR is actually a minority requirement from a relatively small, but very vocal and very high profile group of youtubers.
 

neuroanatomist

Spends too much time on this forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,313
360
The best-selling- maybe. Flooding the market with cheap cameras does that. The most-renowned? Not at all.

So why would Canon add 4K video then? Tell me.
It was your contention that spec lists drive purchasing decisions. When presented with evidence to the contrary, you decided to move the goal posts to spec lists drive renown. Nice try.

No doubt there is some level of consumer demand for 4K. The point is, Canon managed to sell plenty of cameras at all levels without it.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D Mark IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,010
220
Well, I wouldn't be proud to ship a "4K" camera with a crop like that. So, yeah, it seems like a shameful marketing move.

Given the M50 has a new processor, I think the likely explanation is that Canon didn't want to exert the resources to make it work on a camera which sells that cheap. Also, their heart was just not in putting high quality 4K in it to begin with out of fear of cannibalizing higher-end models like the 5DIV (which ironically, also has a rather large crop).

They were getting so much crap for lack of 4K they included a cropped version as a token gesture.
That reinfoces my point above.
The M50 and 5DIV are 4k - whether you like it or not. It is not 'cropped' 4k at all. The Sony takes FF and downsizes to 4k. It is that distinction that people criticise it for.
 

neuroanatomist

Spends too much time on this forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,313
360
Nice try- but you may be the only one who thinks Canon didn't try to protect Cinema EOS by leaving 4K video out of DSLRs. And, of course, protecting higher-tier DSLRs.
I'm not the only one. But there is substantial overlap between the group of people who believe that's what Canon was doing, and the group of people who don't have a clue about business, economics, and marketing.
 
Jan 25, 2017
144
24
I have been trying out all-in-one zoom cameras to accompany our 5DSR-5DIV-100--400mmII-400mmDOII for our big safari trip so we can be at the ready fror near and far without having to change lenses. One possibility is my M5, which with the 18-150 is very powerful, but it is not optimal for fast AF and picking out small subjects. So, I have been playing with the Sony RX10 IV, and have been blown away by its competence. The lens is sharp from 24-600mm, and its lock-on AF detects objects and sticks to them like glue - it grabs birds in flight, and it picks out stationary birds against backgrounds. Obviously, there are compromises with a 1" sensor. But here are some shots I took of a soap bubble at iso 1250-f/4 and 600mm equivalent. It was drifting across the river and the camera never lost perfect focus once. The first is a crop, and the second the full-size reduced ~2x. Now, I want Canon to match this focussing ability so I can use my lenses with new bodies.
nice... impressed a point and shoot did that.

ergonomics, feel, etc are important, but at some point some of the gadgetry, 'gimmicks' and specs do matter.. most is marketing drivel, but some is very useful. I remember people scoffing on digital vs film.. and then later about how useless live view was.. I remember same going from 720p to 1080p tvs.. and now 4k tvs. the increments add up.. the arguments about mirrorless, EVF, 4k video sounds similar.

These are tools and can be used creative new things that were not always possible before. Digital zoom on live view with manual focus is fantastic for tack sharp landscapes, especially in low light situations. High megapixels allow cropping creatively later. 1080p was a big video improvement over 720p.. 4k maybe less but still a good thing. The focus tracking you mentioned, fantastic new opportunities. Doing it manually was possible, but having a was to do it automatically, great!

bleh.. it bugs me watching the endless nitpicking about new features/technology.
 

Don Haines

posting cat pictures on the internet since 1986
Jun 4, 2012
7,184
160
Canada
I'm not the only one. But there is substantial overlap between the group of people who believe that's what Canon was doing, and the group of people who don't have a clue about business, economics, and marketing.
A lot of people are hard wired to believe conspiracy theories. The leaving out 4K is a prime example.… In this case, Canon would have had to be risking their place in a billion dollar market in order to protect a tens of millions market....

or it could have been overheating issues and they didn't want to have to do warranty repairs on 50 million DSLRs.......
 
Likes: stevelee

transpo1

EOS Rebel SL2
Jan 12, 2011
608
29
I'm not the only one. But there is substantial overlap between the group of people who believe that's what Canon was doing, and the group of people who don't have a clue about business, economics, and marketing.
Haha. You'd like to think you have a clue, don't you? In actuality, though- things are different.

As you know (or at least, as you should know if you read it), Canon execs have admitted in recent statements and interviews that they need to risk cannibalization now by including features like 4K, etc.

So...again, nice try.

The word straight from Canon execs, the people who definitely have some clue about business, economics, and marketing, proves you wrong.

These are also the same folks who have infallible marketshare year after year, which- for you- trumps any other concerns about their product lineup.

So again, welcome back to reality.

Enjoy.
 

neuroanatomist

Spends too much time on this forum
Jul 21, 2010
23,313
360
Haha. You'd like to think you have a clue, don't you? In actuality, though- things are different.

As you know (or at least, as you should know if you read it), Canon execs have admitted in recent statements and interviews that they need to risk cannibalization now by including features like 4K, etc.

So...again, nice try.

The word straight from Canon execs, the people who definitely have some clue about business, economics, and marketing, proves you wrong.

These are also the same folks who have infallible marketshare year after year, which- for you- trumps any other concerns about their product lineup.

So again, welcome back to reality.

Enjoy.
Nikkei quotes the president of Canon Marketing Japan, Masahiro Sakata, who identified mirrorless as a 'growth market' that Canon needed to invest in: "[We must] actively roll out products for a growth market even if there is some cannibalization."

I read that several times, and I don't see anything about features like 4K. Just the big picture stuff that matters. Maybe my myopia helps me read better.
 

transpo1

EOS Rebel SL2
Jan 12, 2011
608
29
Nikkei quotes the president of Canon Marketing Japan, Masahiro Sakata, who identified mirrorless as a 'growth market' that Canon needed to invest in: "[We must] actively roll out products for a growth market even if there is some cannibalization."

I read that several times, and I don't see anything about features like 4K. Just the big picture stuff that matters. Maybe my myopia helps me read better.
Which Sakata said right before releasing "the company’s first 4K-capable mirrorless camera."

And in case you don't believe that correlation:

"Craig from Canon Rumors tells PetaPixel that the M50 is indeed the camera Sakata is referring to."

And for those who don't believe Canon sees Sony as a threat and who also don't believe Canon was afraid of cannibalization, I give you this:

"With mirrorless cameras rapidly gaining popularity and rivals like Sony breaking into SLRs, Canon decided it must 'actively roll out products for a growth market even if there is some cannibalization,' Sakata said."

So, no, I don't think your myopia does help with the reading.
 
Aug 23, 2018
3
0
I have to applaud the Canon model - bringing affordable & excellent photographic devices to everyone. I was in for the M5 but kind of expensive for me then, and now got my M50 last July. I have been looking at the amazon best seller, and you can see the sony a6000 & a5000 are the only ones selling for sony, and M50 is up there sometimes #1.