Canon executives say a lot more coming in 2019

bhf3737

---
Sep 9, 2015
447
433
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
Wow. I am taken aback by the ignorance displayed here.
....
Thanks again for a post filled with true filmmaking ignorance.
Someone should read the post and then react. I'm saying again:
"no one gives a s##t about what camera brand to use and whether it is full-frame, 4K or 60p as long as it matches the workflow and gets the job done on time, budget and with the desired quality."
And as I said earlier.
"If any wanna-be video pro thinks that 4K 60p is the magic bullet for video production, he/she needs to grow up quite a lot."
I must add learning how to have a logical discussion to the learning list. o_O
 
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Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
473
321
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
and whats wrong with the current 5d4 DR? I've worked with nikon and sony raw files and the 5d4 is not lagging at all.
Did I say there was something wrong with the 5DIV?? That's exactly the point that it's still the best. All Canon mirrorless cameras released after 5DIV have DR worse than 5DIV. RP uses an old sensor, R uses the same sensor but has a slight decrease in DR. I won't be surprised if they dust 5DSr sensor, tweak it a bit and release a mirrorless high-res R version.
 
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Mr Majestyk

EOS 80D
Feb 20, 2016
157
66
Canon's CEO is Fuji Mitarai? Hmmm...
Still. I joined Canon's Australian R&D group in 2011 and he was then 74, and they categorically said they'd be installing younger blood progressively and now he's an 82-year-old fossil still running them. You can see why Canon are no longer the trail blazers.
 

jvillain

EOS T7i
Sep 29, 2018
91
74
Just talking aesthetics, 4K is an abomination. I do not like my actors looking like they are playing dress-up in my living room. Instead of being transported to another world, the ultra high resolution of 4K dooms us to watching ordinary (although better looking than average) people play acting, stripped of all sense of mystery or drama. I know it is unrealistic to expect his, but I truly wish movie theaters would resist the 4K/8K craze. I would like to have at least one refuge for viewing films as an art.
You must love the Grind House movies are the pinnacle of film making then.
 

marioslrzn

I'm New Here
Mar 11, 2019
9
11
Everybody's situation is different, but for me, the opportunity cost of waiting for Canon to flesh out its video/hybrid system was simply not worth it. Thus, I went over to Sony in late 2017 from Panasonic/Olympus in the MILC space. I didn't move over prior to that because Sony wasn't quite there with their mark ii bodies. That was a year and a half ago. Since then, Canon didn't disappoint (to my benefit) and it has relatively stayed true to its conservative roots (in the EOS R and RP). Given Canon's CEO predictions of a 50% drop of the camera market in the following 2 years and Canon's financial reports stating a transition into marketing and distribution vs R&D, I'm not sure they are interested in catching up for bragging rights. They are more interested in catering to the consumer/entry level market like Rebels, Instant print cameras, etc. which is their most volatile market group considering the fast paced development of multi-camera array smartphones and contribution to their overwhelming market share. In addition, there doesn't seem to be any more releases in the MILC space from Canon in 2019, so those looking for product in that space will have to wait for 2020. By then, I would have generated revenue with Sony product for more than 2.5 years assuming I don't upgrade one of my bodies to the A7Siii. It would be quite some time even after that for Canon to completely displace them in the MILC space forcing them to sell or abandon.... At that point, some of the feature parity between Canon and its competitors would more than likely be partially achieved, and moving to Canon would be more palatable to me for video/hybrid work and the depreciation on the Sony equipment on the used market acceptable.
I didn’t know 4k30fps and crop 1.3, 100mpbs, 420 and 8 bit were cutting edge, seriously people have gotten dumber and dumber. Look at those Sony Specs and tell me those are above what camera? The EOS R is a 30Mp camera and if you factor the crop that’s the same crop vs a 24mp sensor 1.3 crop at 4k30. Also 422 10bit if you’re a professional with 480mbps. Both cameras have limitation, they are just doing it in different ways. If sony did 422 10bit 480mbps, yes that would be a very awesome camera. I have the EOS R with the RF50f1.2 and the RF24-105 and if the sony was so great then I would of bought it but I’ll take the EOS-R any day because SPECs don’t mean crap if you don’t enjoy the camera. I used it more than my 1DX ii cause it’s such great handling camera, the touch LCD there’s nothing in the market like it, feels like an iPhone. Touch and drag focus, touch menus, swipe and pinch photos, has eye focus now and face detect. If you like sony great, if you enjoy then that’s all that matters stop spewing pointless specs that i bet you don’t even use
 
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marioslrzn

I'm New Here
Mar 11, 2019
9
11
4K TVs are everywhere in the USA; many computer and even the latest smartphone displays are greater than HD (revealing the resolution limitations of HD footage); and most video work is shot in 4K even when finishing in HD, to make use of the greater resolution to reframe and to enhance quality; also, many pros and prosumers need and want a hybrid camera that does stills and video; and, to top it off, many corporate productions are shot on Sony FS7s and the matching A7 series is used for a ton of gimbal work. All this goes without mentioning any future proofing benefits of shooting in 4K.

So, really who's clueless here?
You’re foolish if you think people are going to be shooting 4k, that’s a lot of harddrive space. 1080p coming from a EOS R on a 4k look awesome. My LG oled upscale really well and a lot of movies are shot in 4k but remove the sharpness anyway. I have almost 600 4k movies on my ITunes and only a few take advantage of the 4k resolutions and those are digital movies like the avengers and Deadpool . And these are professional grade movies , so lets not even bring up a consumer grade hybrid camera at that. If sony works for you and by all means go buy sony and stop the whining
 

marioslrzn

I'm New Here
Mar 11, 2019
9
11
They just want us plebes to see the light. All 14.8 EV of it, underexposed by 5 stops and pushed in post, with the editing process documented in uncropped 4K60p video.
But no Sony full frame camera does 4k60 not even their flagship camera, they can’t even shoot over 100mpbs cause they will overheat, and 4k30fps has a 1.3x crop, so all this sony being great at video is just propaganda, paid by sony to spew crap on YouTube
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,377
808
Did I say there was something wrong with the 5DIV?? That's exactly the point that it's still the best. All Canon mirrorless cameras released after 5DIV have DR worse than 5DIV.
The difference between the 5D4 and R (0.1ev) is inconsequential. They have the same DR for all practical purposes outside a lab test.

DR has been "stuck" for everyone. The D800 set the bar in 2012. Very few cameras have matched or (barely) exceeded it. It would appear that DPAF is the reason why the 5D4 and R are roughly 1ev behind on this metric, as you can process a DP RAW file to match the DR of the D850. That said, 1ev (regular RAW file) is a tick or two on a NR slider. It's nothing like the D800 vs. the 5D3 where the D800 shadows would reveal details that simply weren't in the 5D3 file.

I suppose you could complain about the DR of the RP, but first you would have to find a FF camera at the same price point.

This is one of those areas where people act like "Canon is behind" with "sensors that are years old" without realizing that the industry as a whole has not moved forward in 7 years on the metric in question.

On a similar point: it seems like the video discussion is progressing as if Sony had 4k60p and Canon had no 4k. Last I checked Sony offered FF 4k30p (better high ISO) at 100 Mbps while Canon offered cropped 4k30p at 400 Mbps (far better for grading). That's not a clear win for Sony, and more than one review by a professional cinematographer points this out.

As I pointed out in another thread the stand out video MILC right now is not a Sony but a Fuji, the X-T3 with 4k60p at 200 Mbps, 4k30p at 400 Mbps, and that gorgeous Eterna profile which means you might not even need to grade the footage. And still the R makes sense if you have Canon glass and/or want to match the footage from a Canon cinema camera.

I won't be surprised if they dust 5DSr sensor, tweak it a bit and release a mirrorless high-res R version.
That sensor still ties for highest image quality in 35mm format 4 years after its release. With the right glass it can quite frankly give MF a run for its money. Mine has done nothing but impress me in all respects at all print sizes.

If Canon were to reuse that sensor they would still have one of the best high resolution systems on the planet. If they go with the rumored 75mp sensor it will put them that much further ahead.
 
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addola

Sold my soul for a flippy screen
Nov 16, 2015
62
25
Sony will be releasing its fourth or fifth model with those specs before Canon gets its first to market
Sony doesn't have a single camera outside their cinema lineup that shoots 4K/60p yet. Not even the A9. Sony will have to make their first one before they make their 4th of 5th. Canon 1DX II does 4K/60p & was released in 2016.
 

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
473
321
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
The difference between the 5D4 and R (0.1ev) is inconsequential. They have the same DR for all practical purposes outside a lab test.
The point is, the R sensor isn't any better at all.

DR has been "stuck" for everyone. The D800 set the bar in 2012. Very few cameras have matched or (barely) exceeded it. It would appear that DPAF is the reason why the 5D4 and R are roughly 1ev behind on this metric, as you can process a DP RAW file to match the DR of the D850. That said, 1ev (regular RAW file) is a tick or two on a NR slider. It's nothing like the D800 vs. the 5D3 where the D800 shadows would reveal details that simply weren't in the 5D3 file.

I suppose you could complain about the DR of the RP, but first you would have to find a FF camera at the same price point.
I wouldn't care to complain about the RP, it's just not the camera I'd be buying so I have no complaints at all.

This is one of those areas where people act like "Canon is behind" with "sensors that are years old" without realizing that the industry as a whole has not moved forward in 7 years on the metric in question.
As a customer, I just don't care to be honest. That is it's all interesting theoretical and historical stuff, and I like reading it, but as a customer looking for a new more advanced camera, I just don't care. What I do care about is a next-get mirrorless weather-sealed camera with a flip screen and a better sensor as a 5DIV successor. Preferably Canon because I have a number of expensive L lenses. The sensor is a major factor to me. If Canon doesn't deliver - I'm just not upgrading from 5DIV, that's all. Will eventually switch to Sony or whatever, depending on my budget and available products on the market.

On a similar point: it seems like the video discussion is progressing as if Sony had 4k60p and Canon had no 4k. Last I checked Sony offered FF 4k30p (better high ISO) at 100 Mbps while Canon offered cropped 4k30p at 400 Mbps (far better for grading). That's not a clear win for Sony, and more than one review by a professional cinematographer points this out.
I'm a very casual video user, don't care much about video. Some people find it extremely important and crucial, I don't.


That sensor still ties for highest image quality in 35mm format 4 years after its release. With the right glass it can quite frankly give MF a run for its money. Mine has done nothing but impress me in all respects at all print sizes.

If Canon were to reuse that sensor they would still have one of the best high resolution systems on the planet. If they go with the rumored 75mp sensor it will put them that much further ahead.
If the 5DIV successor has the same DR as 5DIV and 60+mp, and no AA filter, I'll probably buy it. If they promise it'll have a better DR, I'm happy to preorder it right now.
 

bokehmon22

EOS RP
Oct 31, 2016
356
186
183829



Panasonic DC-S1 Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos
I ordered the Panasonic S1 to go with my Canon 5D IV. $2250 with free battery and battery grip and clean ISO with no banding issue

183831




ISO 6400 performance. Canon will probably have to do alot for me to upgrade - 5.76 million dot EVF, dual card slot, IBIS, 4K60 at min. I doubt it will be cheaper than $2250.
 
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Policar

EOS 7D MK II
Dec 20, 2010
521
3
Just talking aesthetics, 4K is an abomination. I do not like my actors looking like they are playing dress-up in my living room. Instead of being transported to another world, the ultra high resolution of 4K dooms us to watching ordinary (although better looking than average) people play acting, stripped of all sense of mystery or drama. I know it is unrealistic to expect his, but I truly wish movie theaters would resist the 4K/8K craze. I would like to have at least one refuge for viewing films as an art.
Have you read Rudolf Arnheim? Depending on your perspective on his writing, there's some perfect synchronicity or some real irony in your post. Or maybe both.

I think it's a matter of taste. My favorite cinematography is from the 90s mostly–Richardson and Kaminski, primarily. And their images are generally very soft and dreamlike. But for VR acquisition, for instance, I think 8k could very well be necessary in some instances.

I don't know if it's true, but I remember reading Deakins prefers the 3.2K Alexa Mini's image to the 6k Alexa 65's. So do I. But that's just a matter of taste, same as preferring 4k video is a matter of taste. And, I guess, if you know what you want there's no use arguing with others who know they want something else.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,377
808
The point is, the R sensor isn't any better at all.
Neither is anyone else's sensor. Not since 2012.

If the 5DIV successor has the same DR as 5DIV and 60+mp, and no AA filter, I'll probably buy it. If they promise it'll have a better DR, I'm happy to preorder it right now.
Better DR (than 5D4) probably won't happen unless they integrate dual pixel exposure/processing into every shot. I kinda doubt that will happen first on their high MP body.
 

Pape

EOS RP
Dec 31, 2018
373
220
I am happy about RPs DR tooked this with hdr mode looks ok to me :)183830
but yeah i am just hobbyist ,can wait wind to stop.
 

epiieq1

EOS 5D III, 1DX
Aug 9, 2013
33
17
Having read through the interview it left me feeling unsure about what to do next. I didn't get warm fuzzies from Canon's response. The last couple of companies I worked for, I'd be the one to give a rough assessment of what I thought of a new upper management person's speech, and I had a great hit rate for accurately judging. This sounds like they're trying to placate current customers to keep them interested as "it's coming" seems to be the response, missing the "when" and "what level will it actually be at" aspects.
 

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
473
321
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
Neither is anyone else's sensor. Not since 2012.
I don't know. Sony, 4ex, shows a gradual improvement. Not a big gain, but still...

Better DR (than 5D4) probably won't happen unless they integrate dual pixel exposure/processing into every shot. I kinda doubt that will happen first on their high MP body.
There's still a room for Canon to catch up with Sony. I'd be very happy to have even +0.5 stop gain in DR.
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,237
674
Don't worry, Canon would never do this because, as I think we've seen, they really don't care about delivering competitive 4K video on stills cameras ;)

Also, you're not the demographic I'm talking about.
You are saying that Canon could sell more cameras if they were targeting a specific "demographic". I am saying that if it involves extra effort in development and/or production, Canon might actually end up selling less cameras.
 
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dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,377
808
Panasonic DC-S1 Sensor Measurements at PhotonsToPhotos
Here is the Canon 7D sensor measurement at PhotonsToPhotos vs. the S1. Not 7D mark II, but the original. Worse dynamic range than a 6D2 or RP.

183832


That's a difference of 3.5 stops. Based on that you would assume a massive difference in shadow recovery, would you not?

I've posted this before, but so that it can be easily compared to the Panasonic sample you posted:

183833


The shadow recovery in the Panasonic sample is deeper, but not by visual leaps and bounds as people who study graphs and scores might imagine. (And I held the sky ;) )

Point is once you get to the roughly "1ev" range between the 5D4 and a S1 or D850, you're looking at small differences in noise quality while pixel peeping. You're not actually looking at differences in what can be recognizably recovered and used.

The problem with both PhotonsToPhotos and DxO is that nobody includes a clear legend which puts these differences into a meaningful context.
 
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