4 More DSLRs Coming in 2012? [CR2]

[D_Rochat]

Stone, I prefaced my comment because you can't detect tone over the Internet and I thought that my comment might come across rude if I didn't try to explain. If I truly wnted to be a d*ck about it, I wouldn't have bothered. I don't know you or your experience with this equipment and I think it's a legit question. Until I used something other than a Rebel myself, I don't think I fully understood the benefits the xxD since they used the same sensor. No need to get bent out of shape over it.

 

[itsnotmeyouknow]

Stone, I prefaced my comment because you can't detect tone over the Internet and I thought that my comment might come across rude if I didn't try to explain. If I truly wnted to be a d*ck about it, I wouldn't have bothered. I don't know you or your experience with this equipment and I think it's a legit question. Until I used something other than a Rebel myself, I don't think I fully understood the benefits the xxD since they used the same sensor. No need to get bent out of shape over it.

I get where you're coming from - when I bought the 400D in january 2007, the salesman tried to upsell me to the 40D but I didn't see the point. I saw it as being more money for much the same thing. It was a good way of starting though, and by May I had the original 5D. It wasn't until I started to really use different functions and experiment that I started to get to know the differences between cameras was more than just about mp.

 

[Ayelike]

A few things people are talking about confuse me.

Firstly, if Canon produce a higher MP 5D then it'll have to be more expensive than the 5D3 (as not to annoy people like me who have just bought one). Then they'll have their own version of the Nikon D800 that costs twice as much so nobody will buy it.

Secondly, if Canon produces a FF camera that is cheaper than the 5D3 then it'll have to be a lower spec. Say that of the 5D2. But Canon already have a camera the same spec as the 5D2... the 5D2. So why spend millions in development of a new product that replaces one they already have when they're going to sell it at the same price?

Because the 5D Mark 2 is a 3.5 year old camera. It isn't new and it isn't compatible with Canon's newer accessories.

For example, the 5D mark 2 does not hook up to the new GPS adapter.

Secondly, the sensor is old. A newer sensor would allow PDAF with (for example) the 40/2.8 IS STM in live view.

Need I continue?

Interesting points, Dilbert but it still feels to me like a lot of work and cost to Canon to fill an awkward gap in the line up that perhaps doesn't really need filling... or at least may disappear in a year or so when the 5D3 price starts to drop or the 7D2 comes up from the rear.

Although the 5D2 is getting on a bit the IQ does still fits between the 7D and 5D3. Just my thoughts anyway and you're of course entitled to your own. I do however think compatibility with the latest accessories is a valid reason to end the line... or at least push out a firmware update.

Out of interest, if I ask you to go on do you really have anything else to add or were you just attempting to put me down? I'm genuinely interested in what people expect from a new FF camera that sits below the 5D3. If I was Canon I'd worry about releasing a purposefully lackluster FF camera that would be compared to the Nikon D800 as the price wouldn't be too far off.

 

[dlleno]

Let go of APS-H people ... Canon already did. Move on ...

We have direct evidence that Canon let go of is a 1D5; we dont have any direct evidence that they let go of APS-H, or that APS-H will not emerge in another body. While it is plausable to suggest that APS-H itself is dead (an opinion shared by the owner of this site), the current crop of rumors is conspicuously absent any clues regarding the wildlife/BIF crop body market. Unless Canon totally abandons this market, we should see a premium crop body of some sort, either 1.6x or 1.3x, positioned somewhere between 70D and 1DX. To me, if such a camera is a 1.6x it will be a 7D2. If it is a 1.3x it will have some other single digit showing on the front.

 

[sanj]

Let go of APS-H people ... Canon already did. Move on ...

We have direct evidence that Canon let go of is a 1D5; we dont have any direct evidence that they let go of APS-H, or that APS-H will not emerge in another body. While it is plausable to suggest that APS-H itself is dead (an opinion shared by the owner of this site), the current crop of rumors is conspicuously absent any clues regarding the wildlife/BIF crop body market. Unless Canon totally abandons this market, we should see a premium crop body of some sort, either 1.6x or 1.3x, positioned somewhere between 70D and 1DX. To me, if such a camera is a 1.6x it will be a 7D2. If it is a 1.3x it will have some other single digit showing on the front.

I feel the same.

 

[unfocused]

Four DSLRs are not hard to imagine:

7DII
70D
5DHD
Entry-Level Full Frame (Rebel FX?)

Canon seems to have a dilemma with the 60D. Its price and specs are too close to the t4i. The upgrade path is pretty clear: put the features of the 7D in a composite body with a swivel touchscreen and call it good. But, what does that do to the 7D? The body alone might be enough to protect the 7D for a few months, if the 70D gets the same 18mp sensor as the t4i. But, that's not a long term strategy.

I can see Canon deciding to release the 7DII and 70D in tandem. Both get a new sensor. 7DII is essentially a 5dIII with an APS-C sensor. 70D is as described above (7D features in 60D body)

5DHD (High Definition) is identical to the 5DIII (including price) but uses a 46mp sensor (essentially an 18mp APS-C sensor upsized). Canon has three years' experience with the 18mp sensor, so they can put what they've learned to work in a high-resolution 5D without risking any unpleasant surprises. As long as the sensor is the only difference between the bodies, production costs are minimal and there is little risk that one body cannibalizes the other. They just switch out sensors on the production line depending on which model they need the most of. You want low light, low noise -- buy the 5DIII. You want high definition -- buy the 5DHD. What does Canon care? They get your money either way.

That just leaves the "entry" level full frame. What that looks like will depend largely on what Nikon's comparable model looks like (if it materializes). I'm guessing something in a composite body, swivel touchscreen, scaled-down or recycled 5DII autofocus, SD card only, perhaps no micro-focus adjustment. If Nikon produces a more full-featured body, the specs may be improved to compete.

Pricing:

70D – Not sure. Needs to be above the t4i, but not too much above to encourage potential buyers to "step up."
7DII – $1,600 - $2,000
5DHD – $3,500
Rebel FX (full frame entry level camera) – $1,500 - $2,000) like the features, pricing may be determined by Nikon's offering.

I can hear the cries now: "You can't price the 7DII and a full frame Rebel so closely!" Of course you can. Some people want the perceived advantages of the full frame, others want a fully-tricked out DSLR with a 1.6 crop factor. Both markets are sufficiently sophisticated to know what they want.

Oh... and one more thing: Canon is no doubt watching their 5DIII sales figures. If they decide the $500 difference between the 5DIII and the D800 is costing them sales (not sure it is), they may make a minor price adjustment (I'd guess around $200). They might then offer registered 5DIII customers a $200 rebate on any "L" lens as a loyalty reward. (Which, of course, also boosts lens sales)

Just remember. You heard it here first.

 

[Axilrod]

if you mostly shoot video why yuo getting the 5Dmark III? the video is even softer on the mark III...I'd get the 5D2 and save a bunch...

Have you even used a 5DIII or are you just repeating what you've read here and there on the web? I'm guessing if you're putting it down then you don't have one. It isn't "softer" than the 5DII, I have both and shooting with the 5DIII is a pleasure compared to the 5DII. It handles noise much better, virtually no moire/artifacts, 1080p HDMI out makes pulling focus much easier, it's a beast in low-light and (most importantly) it responds to changes in post infinitely better than 5DII footage did. With the 5DII even changing the white balance could seriously degrade the footage, the artifacts made it damn near impossible to sharpen, not to mention the annoying moire.
And the video features are barely anything compared to the massive improvements on the stills side. I don't see why people think they are qualified to recommend/not recommend something they have never used, cut it out.

 

[Axilrod]

This thread is already turning into a wish list thread more than realistic predictions.
The original post seems quite plausible:
-70D (60D has been out for some time now)
-High MP Camera - Would satisfy all the people crying about the 5DIII's puny, useless 22.3MP
-Entry Level FF - If the D600 really ends up being $1500, Canon will have to answer with something.

And I'm sure they meant 4 cameras, 4 DSLRs just seems crazy, so the 4th camera is probably the mirrorless (which we know is coming).

And yes Canon has been bad about delivering products on time, but as I recall I had a 5DIII in my hands 3 weeks after the announcement, so getting these new products delivered in a timely manner isn't impossible.

 

[dlleno]

APS-H is an accident of history, not a product of design. It represents the maximum sensor size that canon could manufacture at that time with a single pass. They can now do that for 35mm sensors.

accpepting that as true I have no argument there; and the 1D/1Ds amalgamation into 1DX may certainly reflect that. But what matters now is unrelated to manufacturing history. what matters is how Canon will meet the needs of the 1D4 Wildlife/BIF togs, i.e. will they provide any crop body at all, or will they force the purchase of more glass to get "more pixels on the subject" in distance limited situations.

 

[Albi86]

APS-H is an accident of history, not a product of design. It represents the maximum sensor size that canon could manufacture at that time with a single pass. They can now do that for 35mm sensors.

accpepting that as true I have no argument there; and the 1D/1Ds amalgamation into 1DX may certainly reflect that. But what matters now is unrelated to manufacturing history. what matters is how Canon will meet the needs of the 1D4 Wildlife/BIF togs, i.e. will they provide any crop body at all, or will they force the purchase of more glass to get "more pixels on the subject" in distance limited situations.

Wait, the amalgamation reflects the fact that an APS-H sensor has no place in the flagship 1D line.
Who said it cannot replace APS-C as a high-end crop? It would boost IQ quite a bit, something Canon is struggling with lately. It's embarassing if they keep using the polished version of the old 18MP sensor as they did for the 650D. That one is a Rebel so it's ok, but on a 7D2?

 

[preppyak]

Interesting points, Dilbert but it still feels to me like a lot of work and cost to Canon to fill an awkward gap in the line up that perhaps doesn't really need filling... or at least may disappear in a year or so when the 5D3 price starts to drop or the 7D2 comes up from the rear.

Although the 5D2 is getting on a bit the IQ does still fits between the 7D and 5D3. Just my thoughts anyway and you're of course entitled to your own. I do however think compatibility with the latest accessories is a valid reason to end the line... or at least push out a firmware update.

Here's the thing...the cheaper the camera gets, the less the consumer will have researched little details, and the more they'll want the newest thing. They are also the lifeblood of companies, because hooking someone in at the entry level is how you get them upgrading and sticking with the company.

So, if Nikon releases a D600 with something pretty close to the reported specs at say $2000ish, then the 5dII market is gonna dry up fast. I can't imagine the person who would want a Ti level auto-focus over even the 7D autofocus, or a 4yr old sensor vs a brand new sensor. They'd want it even less if the cost is <$2000. And an entry-level full-frame is where you hook your high ticket buyers. You go full-frame, you start buying L glass...

The D800/5dIII thing won't affect Canon, but not having an answer to a D600 would.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Sooo...my 5DmkII is being considered 'entry level' now?

5D's have always been Canon's entry level FF bodies. They have only had two choices, now it sounds like three levels. Thats likely why the 5D MK III jumped up in price, to create room for a lower cost entry level body with features similar to the 5D MK II. Sometimes, Canon just rebadges a body, drops the price, and its a entry level.

 

[Rocky]

"The 18mp sensor is having more noise at LOW ISO (eg. 100) than the older 15, 12 or 10 mp sensor" Is this a true statement?? If it is true why are we still wanting higher mp on the APS-C sensor??Hope someone will sine some light on this. Thanks

 

[dlleno]

APS-H is an accident of history, not a product of design. It represents the maximum sensor size that canon could manufacture at that time with a single pass. They can now do that for 35mm sensors.

accpepting that as true I have no argument there; and the 1D/1Ds amalgamation into 1DX may certainly reflect that. But what matters now is unrelated to manufacturing history. what matters is how Canon will meet the needs of the 1D4 Wildlife/BIF togs, i.e. will they provide any crop body at all, or will they force the purchase of more glass to get "more pixels on the subject" in distance limited situations.

Wait, the amalgamation reflects the fact that an APS-H sensor has no place in the flagship 1D line.
Who said it cannot replace APS-C as a high-end crop? It would boost IQ quite a bit, something Canon is struggling with lately. It's embarassing if they keep using the polished version of the old 18MP sensor as they did for the 650D. That one is a Rebel so it's ok, but on a 7D2?

exactly. Canon has never hinted that APS-H is dead . that came from this site

 

[unfocused]

exactly. Canon has never hinted that APS-H is dead . that came from this site

No. Actually it didn't. It came from Canon announcing the merger of the two 1D models into one, which included statements that said that up-sampling images from the new 1DX would result in a quality comparable to the APS-H crop. They later made statements about keeping their options open and general statements about their commitment to professional sports and wildlife photographers.

Now, if you wish to keep the hope alive, that's fine. But let's be realistic about things. We are talking about a transitional technology that only one manufacturer used and even that manufacturer never supported with a single lens.

It's true, Canon has never made a clear "close the door" statement saying they are dropping APS-H. But, such statements are rare in the business world.

I'm not arguing the quality of the format. But, if you travel the technology highway you'll see the ditches are filled with products that were of higher quality than those that ran them off the road.

 

[Albi86]

Well look at all of the new big glass that Canon has announced and brought to market in the last 12 months. What do you think their strategy is?

Most of those glasses are out of reach for everybody who isn't a very specialised pro. And those guys are very few, it's not them who makes the market.

 

[Fishnose]

Using a 1D-class body for the big megapixel camera would be insanely stupid, an open invitation for Canon studio and landscape photographers to buy a Nikon D800. The only thing worse than selling a low end camera that cannibalizes your high end camera sales is to have the damage done by a competitor's low end camera.

So, the D800 is 'low end' becasue it doesn't have integrated grip? Fascinating.

 

[briansquibb]

Let go of APS-H people ... Canon already did. Move on ...

We have direct evidence that Canon let go of is a 1D5; we dont have any direct evidence that they let go of APS-H, or that APS-H will not emerge in another body. While it is plausable to suggest that APS-H itself is dead (an opinion shared by the owner of this site), the current crop of rumors is conspicuously absent any clues regarding the wildlife/BIF crop body market. Unless Canon totally abandons this market, we should see a premium crop body of some sort, either 1.6x or 1.3x, positioned somewhere between 70D and 1DX. To me, if such a camera is a 1.6x it will be a 7D2. If it is a 1.3x it will have some other single digit showing on the front.

APS-H is an accident of history, not a product of design. It represents the maximum sensor size that canon could manufacture at that time with a single pass. They can now do that for 35mm sensors.

Canon is not the only manufacturer of APS-H

APS-H has been consistently the top sports performer for about 10 years.

Why dump it when APS-C is about to be swamped by the P&S APS-C?

 

[dlleno]

exactly. Canon has never hinted that APS-H is dead . that came from this site

No. Actually it didn't. It came from Canon announcing the merger of the two 1D models into one, which included statements that said that up-sampling images from the new 1DX would result in a quality comparable to the APS-H crop. They later made statements about keeping their options open and general statements about their commitment to professional sports and wildlife photographers.

well, not to nit pick, but the most direct statement about APS-H being dead came from this site. Canon has never stated APS-H is dead, as the owner of this site has done. To be sure inferences of such can be plausibly drawn from the Canon statements, but one can also infer that Canon's commitment to pro sports togs does not mean to forcing them into buying longer glass.

...
I'm not arguing the quality of the format. But, if you travel the technology highway you'll see the ditches are filled with products that were of higher quality than those that ran them off the road.

sure, Sony Beta is one example. but all of this is just to say that one opinion is as good as another; if Canon decides they can be profitable and that market demands H they will do it, and we'll just have to see what direction they take. Its just my preference to avoid dwelling on the perceived transitional nature of APS-H, and instead concentrate on what it means for Canon to remain committed to pro sports.

 

[ed24]

if you mostly shoot video why yuo getting the 5Dmark III? the video is even softer on the mark III...I'd get the 5D2 and save a bunch...

Have you even used a 5DIII or are you just repeating what you've read here and there on the web? I'm guessing if you're putting it down then you don't have one. It isn't "softer" than the 5DII, I have both and shooting with the 5DIII is a pleasure compared to the 5DII. It handles noise much better, virtually no moire/artifacts, 1080p HDMI out makes pulling focus much easier, it's a beast in low-light and (most importantly) it responds to changes in post infinitely better than 5DII footage did. With the 5DII even changing the white balance could seriously degrade the footage, the artifacts made it damn near impossible to sharpen, not to mention the annoying moire.
And the video features are barely anything compared to the massive improvements on the stills side. I don't see why people think they are qualified to recommend/not recommend something they have never used, cut it out.

Sir, you just made me pull the trigger. I thank you.

Hello Mr 5D MK3.