A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

[privatebydesign]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

Not at all. Some just prefer not to have to do a lot of extra color grading for skin tones in post and they rather not have their reds look more purple... because of course, Lightroom is always accurate ;-) It's a quality issue for Canon. It's also one area Sony has been unable to equal. Can it be corrected? Sure. Would I prefer accuracy off the sensor? Hell yes.

There is no such thing as "accuracy off the sensor" it is all interpolated garbage, mix it to taste once and make that your import profile, how hard it that?

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

what so many people seem to forget is that Sony sensors work better at low ISO and canon sensors work best at high ISO. Nobody is best across the board. I think it would be a step backwards for the industry to just pick one.

The lead that the Sony sensor has at low ISO is much greater than the lead the Canon sensor has at high ISO. Furthermore the Sony sensor has a linear relationship between ISO and performance where the Canon sesnor does not.

Another point that needs to be made is that you can outsource the production of your design. It is very possible that Sony can produce a Canon design of sensor more economically than in house at Canon.

Or can produce designs that Canon cannot (due to fabrication process limitations.)

Canon make steppers, part of the machinery needed to make sensors, Sony don't.

Well in that case it means that Canon is behind in another area of its business (whoever is making the plant equipment that supplies Sony or the company that makes Sony's sensors.)

There are three companies in the world that make steppers, Canon, Nikon, and ASML a Dutch company. I believe they all make the same generation steppers, though Nikon are well off the boil, and Canon lost a lot of market share to ASML as well due to very restrictive and proprietary attitudes. ASML have carved a substantial portion of the market out for themselves because of business practices, not technology.

 

[Don Haines]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

Canon: All right. Who makes the sensor? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both take pictures, and find out who has Canon... and who has Sony.
Rumours guy: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the sensor into his own camera or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the sensor into his own camera, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the camera in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the camera in front of me.
Canon: You've made your decision then?
Rumours guy: Not remotely. Because sony sensors are designed in Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the camera in front of you.
Canon: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
Rumours guy: Wait till I get going! Now, where was I?
Canon: Australia.
Rumours guy: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the sensor's origin, so I can clearly not choose the camera in front of me.
Canon: You're just stalling now.
Rumours guy: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've shot with a 1DX and 1200F5.6, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the sensor in your own camera, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the camera in front of you. But, you've also bested my Tamron, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the sensor as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the camera in front of me.
Canon: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.
Rumours guy: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHAT THE sensor IS!
Canon: Then make your choice.
Rumours guy: I will, and I choose - IS THAT A NEW PHOTOSHOP RELEASE?
Canon: [Rumours guy gestures up and away from the table. Canon Exec looks. Rumours guy swaps the cameras]
Canon: What? Where? I don't see anything.
Rumours guy: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw an upgrade. No matter. First, let's shoot. Me from my camera, and you from yours.
Canon, Rumours guy: [Rumours guy and the Canon exec shoot]
Canon: You guessed wrong.
Rumours guy: You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched cameras when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian when photography is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...
Rumours guy: [Rumours guy stops suddenly, his smile frozen on his face and falls to the ground dead]
Neuro: And to think, all that time it was your camera that had a canon sensor.
Canon: They were both canon sensors. Sony is building to our design.

 

[PureClassA]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

LOLOLOL. Don!!!! Best Princess Bride reference ever!

 

[bgran8]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

Very well done. By the way, your caption under your name is by far the best I've seen.

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

what so many people seem to forget is that Sony sensors work better at low ISO and canon sensors work best at high ISO. Nobody is best across the board. I think it would be a step backwards for the industry to just pick one.

The lead that the Sony sensor has at low ISO is much greater than the lead the Canon sensor has at high ISO. Furthermore the Sony sensor has a linear relationship between ISO and performance where the Canon sesnor does not.

Another point that needs to be made is that you can outsource the production of your design. It is very possible that Sony can produce a Canon design of sensor more economically than in house at Canon.

Or can produce designs that Canon cannot (due to fabrication process limitations.)

Canon make steppers, part of the machinery needed to make sensors, Sony don't.

Well in that case it means that Canon is behind in another area of its business (whoever is making the plant equipment that supplies Sony or the company that makes Sony's sensors.)

There are three companies in the world that make steppers, Canon, Nikon, and ASML a Dutch company. I believe they all make the same generation steppers, though Nikon are well off the boil, and Canon lost a lot of market share to ASML as well due to very restrictive and proprietary attitudes. ASML have carved a substantial portion of the market out for themselves because of business practices, not technology.

How is it that you know this?

It is common knowledge for those that choose to learn. I believe I got the main bits from Thom Hogan's site but that was all garnered from business reports, all three companies have to file financial reports, as do any other companies in that business unless they are privately held, which given the investment and market is extremely unlikely.

I do appreciate your even temperedness, but many of the laboured points you argue can be unemotionally settled very easily with simple research.

 

[K]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

Having had to hear about all the dynamic range hype for the last 2 years, I'm going to finally chime in with some facts for those who might be missing the full story.

Comparing dynamic range between Nikon and Canon is a little bit of apples to oranges.

Nikon with the Sony sensor has "tuned" their sensor technology to offer massive dynamic range at lower ISO. Canon on the other hand, has "tuned" their sensors to have good dynamic range across all ISO range, particularly high ISO. They give up big DR at low ISO to improve it at high ISO which high ISO is much, much more difficult territory for good dynamic range.

Everyone goes to DXO and reads the results - then makes the blanket statement that Nikon has superior DR. Have they looked into the testing methodology? What is being measured and where?

DXO even says that the DR measure is based on LANDSCAPE type photography. This is LOW ISO world. On that, yes the Nikon is better. No question.

If you click on the full test results - you'll find this chart on DXO Mark -

Here you can see the fairly new, and mighty D810, hailed to have the best sensor of all time has weaker DR than the old, entry-level full frame 6D from ISO 800 and beyond.

So it really depends on what you're doing. I'm sure Sony/Nikon could have tweaked it to have better high ISO dynamic range at the expense of low ISO dynamic range - but that is not what they went for.

Having said all this - for me it all comes down to whether or not the dynamic range on these sensors can be tweaked, or if this is something inherent with their design. If it can be adjusted by manufacturer, then I wouldn't mind the Sony sensor in a Canon. The Sony sensor is very efficient for the pixel size. If going with the Sony sensor means losing high ISO DR, that is a no-go for anyone shooting events.

 

[3kramd5]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

Having had to hear about all the dynamic range hype for the last 2 years, I'm going to finally chime in with some facts for those who might be missing the full story.

Comparing dynamic range between Nikon and Canon is a little bit of apples to oranges.

Nikon with the Sony sensor has "tuned" their sensor technology to offer massive dynamic range at lower ISO. Canon on the other hand, has "tuned" their sensors to have good dynamic range across all ISO range, particularly high ISO. They give up big DR at low ISO to improve it at high ISO which high ISO is much, much more difficult territory for good dynamic range.

Not really. Canon didn't make a decision to give something up at low sensitivity in order to achieve something at high sensitivity. Because the ADC is removed from the sensor with Canon's architecture, there is ample opportunity to add analog noise before the signal is digitized. If they were to somehow address their low ISO noise characteristics, their high ISO noise characteristics would benefit from it as well.

 

[torger]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

One thing is sure, a high megapixel Canon body with the same DR as previous Canon models would be a massive disappointment. To make the consumers happy it must be competitive with Sony in this regard.

If the only way they can achieve this is to use a Sony sensor, then it's the right way to go.

If it falls a little short on high ISO performance compared to their other models it's just a plus, it differentiates the products, it's not good to have one that is best at all aspects. Today a high resolution camera must perform excellently at base ISO with huge DR, that's what people expect.

 

[3kramd5]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

One thing is sure, a high megapixel Canon body with the same DR as previous Canon models would be a massive disappointment. To make the consumers happy it must be competitive with Sony in this regard.

Maybe, but I suspect that the price point will be the lynch pin, not whether it gains a little more detail in the lowest couple stops of exposure.

I'd welcome it (DR), but it's not make-or-break for me. I resisted the D800 because I didn't want to deal with massive file sizes and the necessity to maintain a large collection of flash memory. But when I got the A7R (which was a substantially cheaper purchase since I merely needed an adapter, not a new set of lenses), I also picked up more memory and upgraded my workstation to handle A7R files. I haven't played with any Pentax RAWs, but I suspect I would be able to work at ~50MP without too much consternation.

 

[Don Haines]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

what so many people seem to forget is that Sony sensors work better at low ISO and canon sensors work best at high ISO. Nobody is best across the board. I think it would be a step backwards for the industry to just pick one.

The lead that the Sony sensor has at low ISO is much greater than the lead the Canon sensor has at high ISO. Furthermore the Sony sensor has a linear relationship between ISO and performance where the Canon sesnor does not.

Another point that needs to be made is that you can outsource the production of your design. It is very possible that Sony can produce a Canon design of sensor more economically than in house at Canon.

Or can produce designs that Canon cannot (due to fabrication process limitations.)

Canon make steppers, part of the machinery needed to make sensors, Sony don't.

Well in that case it means that Canon is behind in another area of its business (whoever is making the plant equipment that supplies Sony or the company that makes Sony's sensors.)

There are three companies in the world that make steppers, Canon, Nikon, and ASML a Dutch company. I believe they all make the same generation steppers, though Nikon are well off the boil, and Canon lost a lot of market share to ASML as well due to very restrictive and proprietary attitudes. ASML have carved a substantial portion of the market out for themselves because of business practices, not technology.

How is it that you know this?

It is common knowledge for those that choose to learn. I believe I got the main bits from Thom Hogan's site but that was all garnered from business reports, all three companies have to file financial reports, as do any other companies in that business unless they are privately held, which given the investment and market is extremely unlikely.

I do appreciate your even temperedness, but many of the laboured points you argue can be unemotionally settled very easily with simple research.

What about Leeson? They make a very nice 5HP stepper motor and I have several in use on jackscrews for controlling satellite dishes.

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

It is common knowledge for those that choose to learn. I believe I got the main bits from Thom Hogan's site but that was all garnered from business reports, all three companies have to file financial reports, as do any other companies in that business unless they are privately held, which given the investment and market is extremely unlikely.

I do appreciate your even temperedness, but many of the laboured points you argue can be unemotionally settled very easily with simple research.

What about Leeson? They make a very nice 5HP stepper motor and I have several in use on jackscrews for controlling satellite dishes.

Ah, that is probably how Sony ended up with their competitive sensor manufacturing plant, they ordered some Leeson stepper motors from McMaster Carr

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

because a hallmark of Canon is the most accurate color fidelity.

If you look at color studies of RAW files that actually seems to be not the case and the Canon sensors have become far more color blind than even just ten years ago.

Most of it is just to do with what color array filter you put in front of the sensor. The less tight the filter the more light the sensor is allowed to capture and the better the SNR but the worse color discrimination.

Of course it is a little tricky since a camera can be more color blind for some colors and less for others and there can be a big difference under say natural lighting and then very little under a certain type of artificial, etc. So it's a very complex tricky thing to get into.

As to the final result that most people see, a lot depends upon the way the software color profiles are constructed and tweaked for each camera too.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

Here's a good question... IF this bears fruit... will Canon correct the well known inferior color rendition of the Exmor? Hmmm.... Place your bets! That's the only real downside to a Sony sensor because a hallmark of Canon is the most accurate color fidelity.

To me, adding DR with the Exmor won't be worth a hoot if the color isn't as excellent as it has always been with the Canon sensors. More DR and less noise are almost of no importance to me, but color is another matter. Color is my number one factor when it comes to IQ.

Hopefully you are still using a 1Ds3 and nothing recent from Canon then. And under natural lighting, recent Nikon actually can see more different colors than recent Canon.

Anyway who says Canon won't use the same types of CFA filters with Exmor that they do now? (not that this is necessarily good, unless they go back to say 1Ds3 generation)

Anyway a lot of the difference is also just down to what color profile you choose. I mean heck just flip between various profiles in DPP and ACR and you get radically different color.... from the same camera!

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

Not really. Canon didn't really tune for anything much. They don't have the ability to not have the curve fade down at low ISO, they are forced into it.

Also if you compare 6D to D750 then it's only like 1/4 stop better for high ISO DR, that is NOTHING. Even the D810 (which was tuned down a touch to be extra good at low ISO since the base is ISO64 instead of ISO100) is still only like 1/2 stop worse at high ISO. And the Exmor in the A7S which has base set to favor high ISO a bit, I believe has both better low ISO DR (although not by quite as much as the D810) and a tiny bit better at high ISO than the 6D at the same time.

Having had to hear about all the dynamic range hype for the last 2 years, I'm going to finally chime in with some facts for those who might be missing the full story.

Comparing dynamic range between Nikon and Canon is a little bit of apples to oranges.

Nikon with the Sony sensor has "tuned" their sensor technology to offer massive dynamic range at lower ISO. Canon on the other hand, has "tuned" their sensors to have good dynamic range across all ISO range, particularly high ISO. They give up big DR at low ISO to improve it at high ISO which high ISO is much, much more difficult territory for good dynamic range.

Everyone goes to DXO and reads the results - then makes the blanket statement that Nikon has superior DR. Have they looked into the testing methodology? What is being measured and where?

DXO even says that the DR measure is based on LANDSCAPE type photography. This is LOW ISO world. On that, yes the Nikon is better. No question.

If you click on the full test results - you'll find this chart on DXO Mark -

Here you can see the fairly new, and mighty D810, hailed to have the best sensor of all time has weaker DR than the old, entry-level full frame 6D from ISO 800 and beyond.

So it really depends on what you're doing. I'm sure Sony/Nikon could have tweaked it to have better high ISO dynamic range at the expense of low ISO dynamic range - but that is not what they went for.

Having said all this - for me it all comes down to whether or not the dynamic range on these sensors can be tweaked, or if this is something inherent with their design. If it can be adjusted by manufacturer, then I wouldn't mind the Sony sensor in a Canon. The Sony sensor is very efficient for the pixel size. If going with the Sony sensor means losing high ISO DR, that is a no-go for anyone shooting events.

 

[Diko]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

I reckon that in a previous topic I've pinpointed exactly that problem:

...And I wonder how do you make a home-grown in-house tech go out to you competitors to produce it? Or you just don't - and that makes you look like everybody else.

If this turns out to be true - then it makes sense. Sony obtains DAF and Canon makes a big comeback.

Combine that with already high ISO capabilities achieved by both vendors and you get a better Noise levels thanks to downsampling, right? Or am I wrong about the noise?

There however still seems to be missing one part of the puzzle:

One shouldn't expect Dual Pixel sensors manufactured by Sony. No way.
So probably Canon will manufacture most of their FF bodies with own, home-manufactured sensors and use only Sony sensor for a special high quality (DR, high resolution) body. That makes a lot of sense because high resolution Dual Pixel FF sensor (being effectively 2 x 46 MPix sensor) would generate enormous stream of data that would need processing not only for stills but also video (scaling, denoising etc.) and AF (dual pixel, CDAF).

.... You said it all by yourself:

... would generate enormous stream of data that would need processing not only for stills but also video...

That means that they would have to use DIGIC CPUs sensors with DPAF (CANON sensor tech). That means they can't be SONY.

Additionally where will be situated the the downstream amplifier(s) (secondary outside of the sensor amplifier - thanks Jrista for the clarification). If on the CMOS sensor DxO low-evaluation-of-CANON-sensors-trend will change drastically. AFAIK it is because of them CANON is always behind SONYKON.

I believe all amplifiers with SONY are on the CMOS and with CANON are not. How will they merge that logic. Complete change of logic on one or both of vendors' proprietary DSP (digital signal processor). In Canon that means DIGIC 7S (s - for Sony sensors).

 

[jasny]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

I believe all amplifiers with SONY are on the CMOS and with CANON are not. How will they merge that logic. Complete change of logic on one or both of vendors' proprietary DSP (digital signal processor). In Canon that means DIGIC 7S (s - for Sony sensors).

And how have they merged Sony sensor with Canon DIGiC 6 in G7 X?

BTW: currently I've got reasons to consider all that Canon/Sony tech exchange to be [CR0] eg. never going to happen. Still there is a chance I'm wrong.

 

[Diko]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

Interesting. Could be one of the many reasons for the restared High MP competition:

Olympus OM-D E-M5II Specs
Magnesium alloy body
Dust and water resistant
16MP sensor
40MP Hi-Res composite from 8 shots at 0.5 pixel step
....

 

[jasny]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

I believe all amplifiers with SONY are on the CMOS and with CANON are not. How will they merge that logic. Complete change of logic on one or both of vendors' proprietary DSP (digital signal processor). In Canon that means DIGIC 7S (s - for Sony sensors).

And how have they merged Sony sensor with Canon DIGiC 6 in G7 X?

BTW: currently I've got reasons to consider all that Canon/Sony tech exchange to be [CR0] eg. never going to happen. Still there is a chance I'm wrong.

Two whole different sensors, in G7X it is a Sony BSI, in the SLR cameras there are Sony Exmor

1" Sony is Exmor either.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: A Sony & Canon Sensor Partnership Mentioned Again [CR1]

I believe all amplifiers with SONY are on the CMOS and with CANON are not. How will they merge that logic. Complete change of logic on one or both of vendors' proprietary DSP (digital signal processor). In Canon that means DIGIC 7S (s - for Sony sensors).

And how have they merged Sony sensor with Canon DIGiC 6 in G7 X?

BTW: currently I've got reasons to consider all that Canon/Sony tech exchange to be [CR0] eg. never going to happen. Still there is a chance I'm wrong.

Two whole different sensors, in G7X it is a Sony BSI, in the SLR cameras there are Sony Exmor

But the Canon Sony RX100 clone has a Sony Exmor chip and uses Digic.
Who says they have to use any ADC part of DIGIC?
Are we even sure the ADC is part of digic itself?