Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?

[Marsu42]

So, with the same lens on each body and iso noise not being limiting...

Unfortunately, my experience with the 7D in environments where/when I commonly shoot birds is that ISO noise often is limiting, in particular for the high shutter speed often necessary.

For me (on 60d) the iso noise limit is in my head, that's the annoyance - next to exposure and framing I think about shutter speed/noise tradeoff all the time - either I get less keeper because of camera/motion blur, or the shots are crappy because of too much noise or too shallow dof.

Noise is not limiting when looking back at good shots, but few people state how many shots and opportunities they lost for a good one. That's why I'm really looking forward to a ff sensor. Realistically you can use higher iso even on crop when the final output size is not 100%, but for pixel-level 18mp iso800 is the absolute max that at least gives some air for postprocessing.

 

[bvukich]

I am also worried about missing out on the advantage of having a cropped sensor.

I signed up an account just to comment on this. There is *no* advantage to a crop sensor. How would you feel if you had FF camera, but the camera cropped the picture before it saved it to the card? You would feel cheated! Same deal, only it's a physical limitation.

Source: I am a senior optical engineer.

Yes there is an advantage: the resolution of a sensor depends on the size of a pixel, the smallest image that can be resolved into two separated points is one where the distance is circa 2 pixels. The pixel on the 6D is 6.54 micron, that on the 7D is 4.3 micron. So, with the same lens on each body and iso noise not being limiting, the 7D can resolve a separation of 8.6 microns as opposed to the 13.08 microns on the 6D. So, the 7D has 48.8% more reach than the 6D, which is a huge advantage for bird photography and is why the 7D is so popular for nature photographers. I am waiting for the 7D II.

That's an advantage of pixel density, not sensor size. There is no inherent advantage of crop sensors, but they do happen to CURRENTLY offer an advantage in pixel density if that's a plus for what you want to shoot.

 

[neuroanatomist]

So, with the same lens on each body and iso noise not being limiting...

Unfortunately, my experience with the 7D in environments where/when I commonly shoot birds is that ISO noise often is limiting, in particular for the high shutter speed often necessary.

For me (on 60d) the iso noise limit is in my head, that's the annoyance - next to exposure and framing I think about shutter speed/noise tradeoff all the time - either I get less keeper because of camera/motion blur, or the shots are crappy because of too much noise or too shallow dof.

Noise is not limiting when looking back at good shots, but few people state how many shots and opportunities they lost for a good one. That's why I'm really looking forward to a ff sensor. Realistically you can use higher iso even on crop when the final output size is not 100%, but for pixel-level 18mp iso800 is the absolute max that at least gives some air for postprocessing.

Below are a pair of 100% crops from shots at ISO 3200, one from the 1D X and one from the 7D. I wonder which is which? :

 

[Dylan777]

3. 6D is a bit smaller than 7D in my hand. It doesn't have the solid feel like 5D II, III, 7D etc...I feel like FF sensor in Rebel chassis.

It's small yes, but it's hardly a Rebel chassis. The Rebel is all plastic, and not very good plastic at that. It's somewhere between the 60D and 5D3/7D in build quality. I'm quite sure it'll take more abuse than a Rebel or 60D, if not as much as a 5D3/7D.

+1. And being small and light isn't always a bad thing. It's entirely dependent on the user preference. 6D being small and light has its merits. Just asked those photogs that are tasked to carry their camera from morning till night. Even a slight weight difference feels like heaven. I had a lot of times where I shoot at least 3-4 hours straight (with 2 ultra-light lens, 28mm and 55-250 + external flash). Although I find the IQ of a gripped 500D sometimes lacking, it's heaven compared to an un-gripped 5D2 that I was able to carry and shoot once for 3 hours (wedding + reception) (with a 24-70mm lens + flash).

-1 Rebel, xD and 5D,.....to me the weight of these cameras are not much different - in ounces? The lenses...yes. To have a snug fit camera in the hands is HUGE bonus.

Have you ever mount 70-200 on rebel Vs 7D or 5D?

 

[Helevitia]

Hey everyone A lot of info. I really appreciate it!

After going through everyone's posts, here are my thoughts:

1. bokehliciousness is my new favorite word

2. Some say they don't see a noise problem in my pictures. That's because I shot at ISO 100(which still has noise on a 7D) and it is heavily processed in LR. These are ideal pictures scenarios. Bright light, low ISO, etc...Once it gets a bit darker, the noise is much more apparent.

3. Thinking of moving objects(my daughter), I set my camera to AI SERVO, turned off IS and snapped away. How would the focus on the 6D compare to this type of situation? I would hope it would be better? BTW, this was manually pressing the shutter button, not using burst.

4. I have thought of waiting for the 7DM2. I hope it's not too far off, but in all honesty, if they pin it below the 6D, I can't see how the noise will improve much.

5. Is using LR to clean up noise an acceptable practice? Does anybody really care if they like the picture? Most people that look at my photos(all but one really) don't even notice things like bad shadows, noise, sharpness, etc..

6. As for the "advantage" of a crop sensor. Don't take my words too seriously I just meant that I get 1.6x vs. FF. Call that a pro, con, whatever. If I take a picture at 200mm with a 7D vs. FF, am I really getting a "closer" picture?

7. Again, the sharpness in my images are also improved in LR. And again, I ask, is it acceptable practice to use PP for things like this?

8. Without LR, I wouldn't be able to get the images I want. Sad but true. LR has allowed me to achieve the pictures I want.

9. I noticed someone mention the 6D will easily beat out the 7D in low light. Thinking about that, I like to take pictures without flash whenever I can. I like the natural lighting better. I think the 6D is much better for this scenario.

10. Someone mentioned the noise when taking bird photos. I agree 100%, the noise is really noticeable. If you look at bird pics on 500px, flikr, etc... they are so clean, I often wonder if I'm missing something. I hate to say it, but I'm pretty anal about noise.

I think I'm gonna hold off a bit longer. Possibly buy the 24-70 II instead and see what happens in 2013 As usual, I love this site and I appreciate everyone's feedback! Of course, tomorrow I might change my mind and want to buy the 5D3 I'm sure you all know how that goes

I think I might take my 70-200 into a store, put it one both the 7D and 6D, take some pics and then take them home and compare.

 

[neuroanatomist]

3. Thinking of moving objects(my daughter), I set my camera to AI SERVO, used all AF points, turned off IS and snapped away. How would the focus on the 6D compare to this type of situation? I would hope it would be better? BTW, this was manually pressing the shutter button, not using burst.

The 7D will be better, IMO. Higher density of AF points and all cross-type AF points both mean better AI Servo performance.

5. Is using LR to clean up noise an acceptable practice? Does anybody really care if they like the picture? Most people that look at my photos(all but one really) don't even notice things like bad shadows, noise, sharpness, etc..

7. Again, the sharpness in my images are also improved in LR. And again, I ask, is it acceptable practice to use PP for things like this?

Of course. All's fair in love, war, and post-processing. Well, almost all - some photography contests restrict the amount/type of PP you can do, but NR is pretty much always fine.

6. As for the "advantage" of a crop sensor. Don't take my words too seriously I just meant that I get 1.6x vs. FF. Call that a pro, con, whatever. If I take a picture at 200mm with a 7D vs. FF, am I really getting a "closer" picture?

You're not getting a closer picture. A 200mm lens projects a subject on the focal plane at a given size, regardless of the sensor. But as pointed out, current APS-C sensors generally have a higher pixel density than current FF sensors - that means more pixels on target with APS-C. Whether that's a benefit for you depends on your output. Comparing a 7D image to a 6D image cropped to the field of view of an APS-C sensor, the image quality will be at least equivalent, the 6D may be slightly better...but it will be a 7.8 MP image vs. an 18 MP image. 8 MP is sufficient for web, prints up to about 12x18", etc. If you don't need to crop the image, the 6D will offer substantially better IQ.

9. I noticed someone mention the 6D will easily beat out the 7D in low light. Thinking about that, I like to take pictures without flash whenever I can. I like the natural lighting better. I think the 6D is much better for this scenario.

10. Someone mentioned the noise when taking bird photos. I agree 100%, the noise is really noticeable. If you look at bird pics on 500px, flikr, etc... they are so clean, I often wonder if I'm missing something. I hate to say it, but I'm pretty anal about noise.

The 6D (any FF sensor) gathers more total light - that means less noise at high ISO. I think my 1D X is about 2 stops better than my 7D, the 6D is likely at least 1.5 stops better. Combined with a faster lens, that can make a big difference (provided you have enough DoF).

Of course, tomorrow I might change my mind and want to buy the 5D3 I'm sure you all know how that goes

As a general purpose camera, I think the 5DIII is a much better choice than the 6D. I believe that you'll find the 7D to 6D to be a step up in image quality, but step down in AF performance for moving subjects and in build quality. A 5DIII would be a step up across the board.

 

[Marsu42]

Below are a pair of 100% crops from shots at ISO 3200, one from the 1D X and one from the 7D. I wonder which is which? :

I could guess because I know crappy 18mp iso performance ... but as written above, downsize that to forum web size (like 800px wide) and ask again... that's why I say iso performance has to be considered in relation to final output size, though I admit I'm a pixel peeper and have a hard time convincing myself.

A 5DIII would be a step up across the board.

... at least until you try to shoot with af assist, the issue has neither been identified nor solved.

 

[Helevitia]

Thanks neuroanatomist, I appreciate all of your responses

 

[RLPhoto]

The 5D3 is a 7D w/ a full frame sensor but better.

The 6D is a Repackaged 5D2 with Wifi/GPS.

The 5D2 was a 20D with a FF Sensor.

If you love everything about your 7D, Get a 5D3.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Below are a pair of 100% crops from shots at ISO 3200, one from the 1D X and one from the 7D. I wonder which is which? :

I could guess because I know crappy 18mp iso performance ... but as written above, downsize that to forum web size (like 800px wide) and ask again... that's why I say iso performance has to be considered in relation to final output size, though I admit I'm a pixel peeper and have a hard time convincing myself.

Ok...how about now, with the original full images downsized? I know that I can certainly tell them apart, even at 800x533.

 

[earwaxxer]

I've been a long time Canon DSLR enthusiast, I now own the 7D. From what I have read about the 6D, I honestly dont see much of draw there, over the 7D. If I was a semipro wedding photographer, who didnt already have a 5D of some incarnation I think the 6D could be a good step in the right direction.

As far as the crop factor, I like it, and take advantage of it with my long lenses for sports etc. I dont think I would want to sacrifice that for FF.

As far as noise, the 7D stays very clean up to about 400 ASA. I live in Arizona, so sunshine is not a problem!

 

[TexPhoto]

6D is a wonderful step up in image quality for anyone shooting crop.

6D +7D is an awsome camera set that will give you options on which camera to shoot for the right subject/goal. So if you have a 7D and can add a 6D by all means do.

5DIII is most of the 6D and 7D combo and is the better choice if you don't already have the 7D.

 

[Marsu42]

Ok...how about now, with the original full images downsized? I know that I can certainly tell them apart, even at 800x533.

Yeah, you're correct - but I'm usually the one bashing the crop iso performance while others say they can get clean iso1600 or something out of it - but this is only possible if the shot has no dark areas with details.

On that note your (nice) squirrel shots are bit unfair because one has a dark background which of course shows higher shadow noise, and it even seems to be a bit out of focus or blurred ... if you'd use Lightroom's brush with higher +nr or even a bit -clarity on the background the difference at least might look smaller, though at the cost of the work involved.

Btw: I currently have a similar cut shot of a bird as my wallpaper, but only @iso1250 - and even then the background noise is annoying if not postprocessed as written above, that's why I want a ff - if I ever decide which

 

[Botts]

I've been using my 6D for a few days now.

The image quality and increased DOF is phenominal. Being able to shoot respectable photo's at ISO 6400 is amazing. I can't wait to take it out for a serious shoot. Sharpness with the 70-200 f/4 IS is incredible. The 40mm is also quite surprising.

For shooting events, the silent shutter option will come in very handy as well.

Some things though are really bugging me as an ex 7D user.

The zoom button is killing me. It's taking me forever to get used to. The buttons that simply don't exist I got used to easily as they aren't there anymore. The AF-pattern button is still there though, so I hit it out of habit.

The DOF preview button is also moved which is tougher IMO to press.

Depending on your shooting, not having a hardware button for FEC may be annoying as well. I'm currently in that boat.

I'm getting used to the AF system not being as good. The points do seem to be clustered near the center. The low light performance of the center point blows away the 7D's though.

The drop in FPS didn't affect me as much as I don't shoot sports or birds. If you're coming from a T2i or similar though, it will still be faster.

 

[Botts]

6D is a wonderful step up in image quality for anyone shooting crop.

6D +7D is an awsome camera set that will give you options on which camera to shoot for the right subject/goal. So if you have a 7D and can add a 6D by all means do.

5DIII is most of the 6D and 7D combo and is the better choice if you don't already have the 7D.

Very good points that I agree with.

I decided that I'll keep the money I saved by going 6D not 5D3, and instead of spending it on a lens like most are suggesting, I'll keep it in the hopes that Canon sometime releases a 7D2. That way if I ever have a hankering to shoot sports or animals I'll have a great camera for that. I know that when I shot shuttle launches I'd be renting a 7D because the 6D's speed wouldn't cut it. From 3 miles though, almost everything is par focal, so the AF wouldn't be an issue, just the burst speed.

 

[tphillips63]

I was never happy with the noise from my 7D and when the 5D Mark III was announced I ordered one and love its results.
I did not know the 6D was coming out but am glad I went to the full frame model. As Neuro's shots show, there is a huge difference.
Maybe it is pixel peeping, I don't know but I know with the full frame sensor I am much more satisfied in the pictures I get. I feel they are more, film quality.
I am also coming from being out of photography through the initial digital years and last used a Minolta Maxim 7xi about ten years before I got the 7D.

 

[ashmadux]

So, with the same lens on each body and iso noise not being limiting...

Unfortunately, my experience with the 7D in environments where/when I commonly shoot birds is that ISO noise often is limiting, in particular for the high shutter speed often necessary.

For me (on 60d) the iso noise limit is in my head, that's the annoyance - next to exposure and framing I think about shutter speed/noise tradeoff all the time - either I get less keeper because of camera/motion blur, or the shots are crappy because of too much noise or too shallow dof.

Noise is not limiting when looking back at good shots, but few people state how many shots and opportunities they lost for a good one. That's why I'm really looking forward to a ff sensor. Realistically you can use higher iso even on crop when the final output size is not 100%, but for pixel-level 18mp iso800 is the absolute max that at least gives some air for postprocessing.

Below are a pair of 100% crops from shots at ISO 3200, one from the 1D X and one from the 7D. I wonder which is which? :

this is the best visual explanation ever. I DREAM of shooting 3200+ without worrying about the limits imposed by crop color noise in post. Besides the outer focus points, these are only my only concerns.

night/day

 

[Marsu42]

The zoom button is killing me. It's taking me forever to get used to. The buttons that simply don't exist I got used to easily as they aren't there anymore. The AF-pattern button is still there though, so I hit it out of habit.

When (and if) Magic Lantern runs on the 6d button remapping will be easier, and the zoom function is much better with ml for example the option to go to 100% with one touch.

The DOF preview button is also moved which is tougher IMO to press.

Canon marketing must have had a field day when they positioned that, nearly the same on the 60d ... I bet they had a contest for the most awkward position, and the guy with the winning design got a free 5d3 because he helped protect that model.

 

[Zlatko]

Maybe it is pixel peeping, I don't know but I know with the full frame sensor I am much more satisfied in the pictures I get. I feel they are more, film quality.

Film quality? 35mm film was never that good.

 

[Botts]

The zoom button is killing me. It's taking me forever to get used to. The buttons that simply don't exist I got used to easily as they aren't there anymore. The AF-pattern button is still there though, so I hit it out of habit.

When (and if) Magic Lantern runs on the 6d button remapping will be easier, and the zoom function is much better with ml for example the option to go to 100% with one touch.

The DOF preview button is also moved which is tougher IMO to press.

Canon marketing must have had a field day when they positioned that, nearly the same on the 60d ... I bet they had a contest for the most awkward position, and the guy with the winning design got a free 5d3 because he helped protect that model.

Good point with the ML remapping option should that become available. As an ex-7D user I never had ML available.

I'm 99% sure that the DOF button is in the same place on the 6D as 5D3.