Anybody upgrade from a 7D to 6D? What are your thoughts?

[Krob78]

I am also worried about missing out on the advantage of having a cropped sensor.

I signed up an account just to comment on this. There is *no* advantage to a crop sensor. How would you feel if you had FF camera, but the camera cropped the picture before it saved it to the card? You would feel cheated! Same deal, only it's a physical limitation.

Source: I am a senior optical engineer.

Oh oh... popcorn out and sitting comfortably :

hehehe ..... 8)

Here we go~ Weeeee!!! :

 

[verysimplejason]

3. 6D is a bit smaller than 7D in my hand. It doesn't have the solid feel like 5D II, III, 7D etc...I feel like FF sensor in Rebel chassis.

It's small yes, but it's hardly a Rebel chassis. The Rebel is all plastic, and not very good plastic at that. It's somewhere between the 60D and 5D3/7D in build quality. I'm quite sure it'll take more abuse than a Rebel or 60D, if not as much as a 5D3/7D.

+1. And being small and light isn't always a bad thing. It's entirely dependent on the user preference. 6D being small and light has its merits. Just asked those photogs that are tasked to carry their camera from morning till night. Even a slight weight difference feels like heaven. I had a lot of times where I shoot at least 3-4 hours straight (with 2 ultra-light lens, 28mm and 55-250 + external flash). Although I find the IQ of a gripped 500D sometimes lacking, it's heaven compared to an un-gripped 5D2 that I was able to carry and shoot once for 3 hours (wedding + reception) (with a 24-70mm lens + flash).

-1 Rebel, xD and 5D,.....to me the weight of these cameras are not much different - in ounces? The lenses...yes. To have a snug fit camera in the hands is HUGE bonus.

Have you ever mount 70-200 on rebel Vs 7D or 5D?

Yes actually and they felt different. If all else equal, I'll take a gripped rebel. Sadly, I also take IQ into consideration.

I guess you've got a large hand? As I've said, this is purely subjective. That's why I did not generalize. Again, it is entirely dependent on the user's preference. Of course, I'll still prefer 5D3 even with the added weight more than the 6D and a little bit of loss in IQ (almost non-noticeable) if I got the money. But with restrained budget, a 6D + lens is more appealing than a 5D3.

 

[Krob78]

Below are a pair of 100% crops from shots at ISO 3200, one from the 1D X and one from the 7D. I wonder which is which? :

I could guess because I know crappy 18mp iso performance ... but as written above, downsize that to forum web size (like 800px wide) and ask again... that's why I say iso performance has to be considered in relation to final output size, though I admit I'm a pixel peeper and have a hard time convincing myself.

Ok...how about now, with the original full images downsized? I know that I can certainly tell them apart, even at 800x533.

Thank you! 8)

 

[Area256]

3. Thinking of moving objects(my daughter), I set my camera to AI SERVO, turned off IS and snapped away. How would the focus on the 6D compare to this type of situation? I would hope it would be better? BTW, this was manually pressing the shutter button, not using burst.

5. Is using LR to clean up noise an acceptable practice? Does anybody really care if they like the picture? Most people that look at my photos(all but one really) don't even notice things like bad shadows, noise, sharpness, etc..

7. Again, the sharpness in my images are also improved in LR. And again, I ask, is it acceptable practice to use PP for things like this?

8. Without LR, I wouldn't be able to get the images I want. Sad but true. LR has allowed me to achieve the pictures I want.

9. I noticed someone mention the 6D will easily beat out the 7D in low light. Thinking about that, I like to take pictures without flash whenever I can. I like the natural lighting better. I think the 6D is much better for this scenario.

3. Likely worse. The 7D has more points and more cross type points with better spread. However, the 6D can be "tuned" for different types of action like the 5D3, this make make it a little better in some cases. I have yet to see a real world test between the two for tacking - mostly because that's hard to measure. However the 7D is a sports camera, the 6D is a landscape/portrait camera, so it's safe to bet the 7D will outperform in tracking.

5. 7. 8. In my opinion it is absolutely acceptable to process things like noise, sharpness, colour, exposure, local adjustments, ect. in LR - and you shouldn't feel "bad" about needing to do it. What matters is the final product. Think about it this way: when we had film you would chose your type of film to get different looks, use colour filters to change the colour balance, doge and burn to lighten up or darken parts of the image. There were even ways to change saturation, crop, do HDR, and much more. All the best photographers of the time did that. Ansel Adams did that. So don't feel like you can't use a bit of LR.

Another way to look at it: The jpeg engine applies contrast, sharpness, NR, tone curves, etc to your image. Why not take control of that process in LR? If you don't like the jpegs, that's not necessarily because you are bad, just that the jpeg engine don't produce look you want.

This doesn't mean take crappy pictures and try to save them LR, you should always strive to get the best exposures and lighting you can. However to argue that you shouldn't touch them after that is silly, just like it was in the days of film.

9. Yes the 6D will work better in low light, period. However I would recommend looking at off-camera lighting. A lot of people who say "I like the natural lighting better.", do so because they have only used the flash on their camera - and on-axis hard light almost always looks awful. However, put a flash in an umbrella off to the side, and you'll get great results.

---

The bottom line for you I think is this: The 6D will give you better IQ in low light and good light. However it may not track as well as the 7D. The 5D3 will do both very well, but will cost a lot more, and leave you without as much money for lenses. That's a really hard choice to make. I don't shoot enough action to make the 5D3 worth it for me, so I got the 6D and will get myself the 135mm f/2L (a sweet lens) with the extra money.

One way to decide is just to play with a 6D in a store. Bring someone to run around, and try taking pictures of them, if it does a good enough job, get it. If not, well you're stuck with the 7D or 5D3.

 

[Dylan777]

3. Thinking of moving objects(my daughter), I set my camera to AI SERVO, turned off IS and snapped away. How would the focus on the 6D compare to this type of situation? I would hope it would be better? BTW, this was manually pressing the shutter button, not using burst.

5. Is using LR to clean up noise an acceptable practice? Does anybody really care if they like the picture? Most people that look at my photos(all but one really) don't even notice things like bad shadows, noise, sharpness, etc..

7. Again, the sharpness in my images are also improved in LR. And again, I ask, is it acceptable practice to use PP for things like this?

8. Without LR, I wouldn't be able to get the images I want. Sad but true. LR has allowed me to achieve the pictures I want.

9. I noticed someone mention the 6D will easily beat out the 7D in low light. Thinking about that, I like to take pictures without flash whenever I can. I like the natural lighting better. I think the 6D is much better for this scenario.

3. Likely worse. The 7D has more points and more cross type points with better spread. However, the 6D can be "tuned" for different types of action like the 5D3, this make make it a little better in some cases. I have yet to see a real world test between the two for tacking - mostly because that's hard to measure. However the 7D is a sports camera, the 6D is a landscape/portrait camera, so it's safe to bet the 7D will outperform in tracking.

5. 7. 8. In my opinion it is absolutely acceptable to process things like noise, sharpness, colour, exposure, local adjustments, ect. in LR - and you shouldn't feel "bad" about needing to do it. What matters is the final product. Think about it this way: when we had film you would chose your type of film to get different looks, use colour filters to change the colour balance, doge and burn to lighten up or darken parts of the image. There were even ways to change saturation, crop, do HDR, and much more. All the best photographers of the time did that. Ansel Adams did that. So don't feel like you can't use a bit of LR.

Another way to look at it: The jpeg engine applies contrast, sharpness, NR, tone curves, etc to your image. Why not take control of that process in LR? If you don't like the jpegs, that's not necessarily because you are bad, just that the jpeg engine don't produce look you want.

This doesn't mean take crappy pictures and try to save them LR, you should always strive to get the best exposures and lighting you can. However to argue that you shouldn't touch them after that is silly, just like it was in the days of film.

9. Yes the 6D will work better in low light, period. However I would recommend looking at off-camera lighting. A lot of people who say "I like the natural lighting better.", do so because they have only used the flash on their camera - and on-axis hard light almost always looks awful. However, put a flash in an umbrella off to the side, and you'll get great results.

---

The bottom line for you I think is this: The 6D will give you better IQ in low light and good light. However it may not track as well as the 7D. The 5D3 will do both very well, but will cost a lot more, and leave you without as much money for lenses. That's a really hard choice to make. I don't shoot enough action to make the 5D3 worth it for me, so I got the 6D and will get myself the 135mm f/2L (a sweet lens) with the extra money.

One way to decide is just to play with a 6D in a store. Bring someone to run around, and try taking pictures of them, if it does a good enough job, get it. If not, well you're stuck with the 7D or 5D3.

As I mentioned in my 1st post, the outer AF points on 6D are almost worthless in AI servo and tracking subject in running. On top of that, the frame rate is on slower side, that make it even more diffecult to shoot in AI servo.

How do you capture kid running around the house when your flash is mount on ext. umbrella soft box?

agree on......... "the 6D is a landscape/portrait camera"

 

[tphillips63]

I know, that is why I said pixel peeping, which was not possible back in the day when everything was printed, usually no larger than 11x14 and most of the time way smaller.
With a computer it is so easy to look at images very large and think, it is very noisy, but they print fine.
I see many shots on the web or even in print from the 7D that I think are great.
Still, I like the images with the full frame better so OP will too.

Maybe it is pixel peeping, I don't know but I know with the full frame sensor I am much more satisfied in the pictures I get. I feel they are more, film quality.

Film quality? 35mm film was never that good.

 

[sagittariansrock]

...
I love the 7D. I think it's an amazing camera with one exception. I think it has too much noise. For that reason alone, I really want to upgrade.
...
I know the images will look cleaner, sharper and nicer on the 6D.
...
I mostly shoot landscape and people, but not really portraits.
...
I'm not a professional and I don't pay attention to every single feature of my camera.
...
I guess the bottom line is, I want really good image quality. I want it to look sharp, clear, and as little noise as possible. Here's are two pics I took with my 7D and 70-200mm II. Any critique is welcomed. Thanks!

I see no noise problem whatsoever in your sample pictures.
I see no problem with lack of sharpness in your pictures.
I see no other problem in your picture that would be resolved by using a 6D or any other 36x24mm sensor camera.
I do not believe your pictures will be any better than this with a 6D, a 5D 3 or a 1D-X.

You can shoot the 70-200 at f/2.8 ... it is sharp enough. No need to close aperture to f/4.0.
You can further improve your skills in catching the perfect moment capturing persons in motion with the 7D. It is a perfect tool for that task. It is way faster, way more responsive and has a way better AF-system than the sluggish and totally compromised 6d. Switch your 7D to fast series speed and take short bursts of 4-5 pics in situations like the one you captured.
You can also further improve your compositional skills without needing a new "FF" camera.

Biggest improvement factor I see is to fruther develop your photographic eye and your ability to capture the moment. All it takes is some self-criticial analysis and lots of practice. Wish you all the best in that task.

+1.
I should add, I was in the same boat- considering moving to FF due to the high ISO noise of the 7D. I was advised in these forums to wait until I can afford the 5DIII instead, and in the mean time get fast lenses which will solve your high ISO problem while retaining all the pros of the 7D and will give you beautiful shallow DoF and your favorite word (bokeh...) when you move to FF.

I know, that is why I said pixel peeping, which was not possible back in the day when everything was printed, usually no larger than 11x14 and most of the time way smaller.
With a computer it is so easy to look at images very large and think, it is very noisy, but they print fine.
I see many shots on the web or even in print from the 7D that I think are great.
Still, I like the images with the full frame better so OP will too.

Pity, pixel peeping has undermined more important aesthetic considerations nowadays.

 

[distant.star]

Source: I am a senior optical engineer.

I am too!

I'm an old guy wearing glasses -- and every time I look closely at something it's an engineering exercise!

 

[dtaylor]

Ok...how about now, with the original full images downsized? I know that I can certainly tell them apart, even at 800x533.

I can't tell them apart after using Noise Ninja with the 7D ISO 3200 profile. I imagine with proper processing this would hold true at 8x10 and 11x14. Past that you would start to see a difference.

I'll be the first to say that FF is better at high ISO, and that is a valid reason to go FF if you need high ISO. But like everything in photography, differences are exaggerated and blown out of proportion. Are you making 16x20 ISO 6400 prints? By all means, FF. Are you making 8x10 ISO 3200 prints? Use DPP (better noise handling at high ISO than ACR; at lower ISOs use ACR), Noise Ninja or another plugin, and put your money towards something that will actually yield a tangible benefit.

I don't know which category Helevitia fits into.

 

[shutterwideshut]

The 5D3 is a 7D w/ a full frame sensor but better.

The 6D is a Repackaged 5D2 with Wifi/GPS.

The 5D2 was a 20D with a FF Sensor.

If you love everything about your 7D, Get a 5D3.

+1000. I totally agree with that!

 

[kidcharles]

I think what gets lost a bit in the discussion of high ISOs is that in addition to more noise, the color quality can take a substantial hit. Before I replaced my 7D with a 5D3, I would only go to 3200 in emergencies, as much because of the damage it did to color rendition as for the luminance noise. With the 5D3, I get acceptable noise and color at 3200, as good as the 7D set to 800. I've switched to the 5D3 for my bird photography because I can get away with higher ISOs. Despite the lower pixel density, I'm able to get shots that look as sharp or even sharper than equivalent 7D shots because I can use less noise reduction. If Canon comes up with a 7D Mk II that is a stop better noise-wise than the original 7D and has ~24 Mp I would probably go back to crop land, at least for telephoto work.

 

[M.ST]

You can´t upgrade from the 7D to the 6D because you waste a lot of money for new SD cards.

It´s a shame that Canon don´t put a cf/sd card slot in the 6D that the people can change.

The 6D has better image quality, but the AF system and speed is s big step backwards if you come from the 7D.

I recommend to wait for the 7D Mark II (70D) or what the name will be. I hope that the camera will have a CF card slot because I want the camera as a TC replacement.

 

[Chosenbydestiny]

I disagree with the memory card issue "preventing" an upgrade. SD cards are very cheap. As for durability, if you're the average careful person an SD card will survive longer than your camera shutter. Big step backwards in AF? For who? I came from a 7D, why don't I feel crippled with my wife's 6D or my 9 point AF bodies shooting moving subjects? Oh. because the difference in AF is actually marginal with the need for better ISO performance outweighing the need for that said marginal AF performance. You can jack up the shutter speed on the 6D a bit higher than the 7D and get similar results if you've warmed up enough to how the points work in your camera. And you'll still get a better looking set of images in the end, especially indoors or when the sun falls at a game. But no, not everyone shoots sports, sorry.

You can´t upgrade from the 7D to the 6D because you waste a lot of money for new SD cards.

It´s a shame that Canon don´t put a cf/sd card slot in the 6D that the people can change.

The 6D has better image quality, but the AF system and speed is s big step backwards if you come from the 7D.

I recommend to wait for the 7D Mark II (70D) or what the name will be. I hope that the camera will have a CF card slot because I want the camera as a TC replacement.

 

[AlanF]

I am also worried about missing out on the advantage of having a cropped sensor.

I signed up an account just to comment on this. There is *no* advantage to a crop sensor. How would you feel if you had FF camera, but the camera cropped the picture before it saved it to the card? You would feel cheated! Same deal, only it's a physical limitation.

Source: I am a senior optical engineer.

Yes there is an advantage: the resolution of a sensor depends on the size of a pixel, the smallest image that can be resolved into two separated points is one where the distance is circa 2 pixels. The pixel on the 6D is 6.54 micron, that on the 7D is 4.3 micron. So, with the same lens on each body and iso noise not being limiting, the 7D can resolve a separation of 8.6 microns as opposed to the 13.08 microns on the 6D. So, the 7D has 48.8% more reach than the 6D, which is a huge advantage for bird photography and is why the 7D is so popular for nature photographers. I am waiting for the 7D II.

That's an advantage of pixel density, not sensor size. There is no inherent advantage of crop sensors, but they do happen to CURRENTLY offer an advantage in pixel density if that's a plus for what you want to shoot.

Pixel size = 1/(pixel density). I prefer to use pixel size as length is a more meaningful quantity to interpret immediately than are the units of reciprocal length that define density. But, others who enjoy thinking in reciprocals may prefer density.

 

[Marsu42]

Big step backwards in AF? For who? I came from a 7D, why don't I feel crippled with my wife's 6D or my 9 point AF bodies shooting moving subjects? Oh. because the difference in AF is actually marginal with the need for better ISO performance outweighing the need for that said marginal AF performance.

If you're successful tracking anything with the 9pt af (esp. with shallow dof), you're a genius - whenever I tried I have to admit that there are simply too few focus points to keep the af, and of course the 60d has zero servo af customization.

But the 6d is bound to be better because of the better firmware options and esp. just the two af points more in the "gap" left+right from the center of the 60d-type af might make a difference - I'm still waiting for good reviews to decide.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Big step backwards in AF? For who? I came from a 7D, why don't I feel crippled with my wife's 6D or my 9 point AF bodies shooting moving subjects? Oh. because the difference in AF is actually marginal with the need for better ISO performance outweighing the need for that said marginal AF performance.

If you're successful tracking anything with the 9pt af (esp. with shallow dof), you're a genius - whenever I tried I have to admit that there are simply too few focus points to keep the af, and of course the 60d has zero servo af customization.

But the 6d is bound to be better because of the better firmware options and esp. just the two af points more in the "gap" left+right from the center of the 60d-type af might make a difference - I'm still waiting for good reviews to decide.

The 5DII has 6 points filling that gap, as it relates to AI Servo. Like Chosenbydestiny, compared to the 7D I found the 5DII and the T1i I had before the 7D, had no trouble tracking moving subjects. Tree sloths, snails, flowing molasses, tectonic plates...the 5DII did just great! My 3 year old running toward me across the back yard, with an f/2.8 lens, however.....

 

[Marsu42]

compared to the 7D I found the 5DII and the T1i I had before the 7D, had no trouble tracking moving subjects. Tree sloths, snails, flowing molasses, tectonic plates...the 5DII did just great!

I admit I seldom used af tracking with the 60d after I failed some time, but using a shallow rather dof like 300mm with f5.6 the objects often were not completely in focus (wrong prediction by the camera) or with small objects the single point af simply lost focus if the objects was either low contrast or away from the af point too long (i.e. zero custom settings on the 60d).

 

[Dylan777]

Big step backwards in AF? For who? I came from a 7D, why don't I feel crippled with my wife's 6D or my 9 point AF bodies shooting moving subjects? Oh. because the difference in AF is actually marginal with the need for better ISO performance outweighing the need for that said marginal AF performance.

If you're successful tracking anything with the 9pt af (esp. with shallow dof), you're a genius - whenever I tried I have to admit that there are simply too few focus points to keep the af, and of course the 60d has zero servo af customization.

But the 6d is bound to be better because of the better firmware options and esp. just the two af points more in the "gap" left+right from the center of the 60d-type af might make a difference - I'm still waiting for good reviews to decide.

The 5DII has 6 points filling that gap, as it relates to AI Servo. Like Chosenbydestiny, compared to the 7D I found the 5DII and the T1i I had before the 7D, had no trouble tracking moving subjects. Tree sloths, snails, flowing molasses, tectonic plates...the 5DII did just great! My 3 year old running toward me across the back yard, with an f/2.8 lens, however.....

LOL....LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

[Dylan777]

Big step backwards in AF? For who? I came from a 7D, why don't I feel crippled with my wife's 6D or my 9 point AF bodies shooting moving subjects? Oh. because the difference in AF is actually marginal with the need for better ISO performance outweighing the need for that said marginal AF performance.

If you're successful tracking anything with the 9pt af (esp. with shallow dof), you're a genius - whenever I tried I have to admit that there are simply too few focus points to keep the af, and of course the 60d has zero servo af customization.

But the 6d is bound to be better because of the better firmware options and esp. just the two af points more in the "gap" left+right from the center of the 60d-type af might make a difference - I'm still waiting for good reviews to decide.

Marsu42,
Don't put too much hope into it. 6D is your portrait/landscape camera. Lack of AF points(not to mention non-cross type on all outer AF points) and slower frame rate = not good in AI servo.

About you bring your kid to local camera store and try it out rather then waiting for reviews. While you there, try out the 5D III as well.......and if budget is not an issue the 1D X is usually sitting right next to the 5D III ;D

 

[Helevitia]

Thanks again for all the feedback. This thread grew much bigger than I had anticipated. After mulling over everything in this thread(again), I 'm pretty sure I'll just focus on buying a new lens and see what the 7DMK2 has to offer or see if canon comes out with something in between the 6D and 5DIII. I really need to go play with a 6D in a store with my lens and see what I think. Maybe after the holidays.

Another thought is, I wait for another $2500 5DIII deal to pop up, buy that and sell my 7D for a grand. Technically I'm only paying $1500, right? right!