Bingo! New Canon 5Ds has 50.6 MP new rumored specs

[kphoto99]

Can anybody show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family, ie, if a P&S or phone could have taken it then we are just relegating our DSLR's to that level, not lifting our image making to a higher level.

Does this qualify?

 

[privatebydesign]

@Lee Jay: really nice image!
Plus it demonstrates very well, how a pop-up flash can not only be "better than nothing" ... but "much better". 8)

But it doesn't demonstrate how having a pop up flash on a DSLR is any better than having a phone or a P&S.

First of all, a phone doesn't have a flash, it has an LED. A 1/15th of a second burst from an LED doesn't do the same thing as a 1/1000th of a second Xenon flash burst. Second, they are weaker than a P&S flash, which itself is weaker than a pop up (GN 2 or so versus GN 12 or so).

Attached is a recent one. This was taken at full flash power, ISO 1600, f/2.8, 1/5th with a 15mm fisheye on a full-frame camera. Can't do that with a P&S or a phone. The entire central area except that green section was totally unlit and so would have been totally black without the flash.

Yes, and as far as I can see it still doesn't qualify as 'good', that is "By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family". It is a crappy picture of a cave that could be done vastly 'better' with more time and effort with the gear you have.

I am not being personal here, the question was becoming a pissing contest between people that described the feature as 'not pro' and those that debunked it and those posters. So my challenge was, show me a 'pro' image (that I maybe limitingly suggested could be defined as "an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family") that was made because of having a pop up flash as illumination. I am not saying for some people a pop up flash isn't useful, I am saying for commercial work, ie pro use, it is a useless 'feature' particularly now we have the RT flash system.

 

[privatebydesign]

Can anybody show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family, ie, if a P&S or phone could have taken it then we are just relegating our DSLR's to that level, not lifting our image making to a higher level.

Does this qualify?

Not as far as I can see. Would a discriminating stock agency take it?

 

[Lee Jay]

Can anybody show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family, ie, if a P&S or phone could have taken it then we are just relegating our DSLR's to that level, not lifting our image making to a higher level.

Does this qualify?

Not as far as I can see. Would a discriminating stock agency take it?

Who cares? I don't do stock, and what other people often love, I usually hate, and often vice-versa. My goal is to get the images I want, not the images others want.

 

[dufflover]

ahhh, just like the excuses for not putting image stabilization on anything less than 70mm :
If it's there and you don't need it, don't use it. Except in the case of some camera features stabilization actually takes some decent effort to implement well; flash, ***, WiFi, swivel or touch screen etc. are a few cents/dollars a pop with all the base ground work already completed.

Funnily enough for bodies like these I'm a bit more forgiving on things like lack of WiFi and ***, except I don't make excuses on behalf of Canon on why they aren't there. *** on a landscape cam makes good sense to me. Even a flippy screen for easier LV shooting while it's on a tripod is handy at times.

 

[AvTvM]

the entire question is not, "is a pop-up flash good enough to produce professional images as good as carefully lit studio images with a full lighting setup?". Nobody claims it is. Pop-up flash is a useful tool when no other lighting options are immediately available. Not more. But not less, either.

the question is: would a majority of potential buyers find a popup flash useful in a specific camera. If potential customers ever were asked - rather than only 10 hand-selected "arch-conservative Canon Explorers of mirrorslapping" - probably around 70-80% of all potential buyers would like to have a built-in pop flash in ANY camera. Especially if that little pop-up also serves as wireless speedlite commander.

The percentage is very likely much larger than those who want "advanced video capabilities" in every DSLR.

And that little pop-up flash also costs very little to implement, otherwise it would not be included in vritually any € 99 powershot digicam.

re. "un-Pro"
7D II is "as specialized and professional" a camera as 5D S / R are going to be. 7D II does have a pop-up flash. As had the 7D. Nikon FX cams like the rather professional D810 also have a pop-up flash.

Not many reports about "wheathersealing problems", "broken off pop-.up flashes in the field" around. All those "un-pro" myths are solidly debunked.

No, this is no "rant". It is my opinion.

 

[privatebydesign]

Can anybody show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family, ie, if a P&S or phone could have taken it then we are just relegating our DSLR's to that level, not lifting our image making to a higher level.

Does this qualify?

Not as far as I can see. Would a discriminating stock agency take it?

Who cares? I don't do stock, and what other people often love, I usually hate, and often vice-versa. My goal is to get the images I want, not the images others want.

And that is absolutely 100% fine by me, and the 5D MkIV having a pop up flash is important for you personally, but in the spirit of the thread and by your own admission that makes it a 'pro' feature.

As I said, I have no problem with people wanting one, and using it on the occasions it is useful, but it isn't a commercially viable illumination technique, and because of that it has no place on 'pro' camera bodies.

 

[privatebydesign]

the entire question is not, "is a pop-up flash good enough to produce professional images as good as carefully lit studio images with a full lighting setup?". Nobody claims it is. Pop-up flash is a useful tool when no other lighting options are immediately available. Not more. But not less, either.

I agree, but that wasn't the question I asked. For those that feel a pop up flash has a place on a 'pro' camera my request is simple, "show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family, ie, if a P&S or phone could have taken it then we are just relegating our DSLR's to that level, not lifting our image making to a higher level."

 

[PureClassA]

So I found this to make things interesting. James Miller is a cinema/video guy in the UK who now works some with Philip Bloom. Apparently Miller tore down his 5D3 a couple years back and ditched the AA filter. Here's what he got:

http://www.eoshd.com/2012/03/james-miller-removes-optical-low-pass-filter-from-5d-mark-iii-for-resolution-increase/

Obviously more detail without AA, but I can damn sure see the aliasing particularly in fine edges of pavement stripes and in the parked cars. Does the added detail (false, noise, real, otherwise) outweigh the use of the AA. Miller seems to think Canon "used too strong an AA" to begin with.

That said... This is a 22MP sensor. Now with an almost 250% increase in density... is aliasing really going to even be a factor? Using his own pictures and video in Brighton Beach, how much of that effect can we assume 50MP would mitigate on its own without the filter?

If medium format 50MP cameras are without an AA, could this body (the R) not also stand up the same way (granted there's an obvious sensor and pixel size difference)

Toss out your thoughts please! This would be a lot more interesting than pop-up flashes.... geez... come on guys!! :

 

[manyhats]

i'm going to make a shockingly bold call and say that the smart people who think a pop-up flash on a professional level camera is a good idea, probably aren't the target market for this camera...

 

[Lee Jay]

the entire question is not, "is a pop-up flash good enough to produce professional images as good as carefully lit studio images with a full lighting setup?". Nobody claims it is. Pop-up flash is a useful tool when no other lighting options are immediately available. Not more. But not less, either.

I agree, but that wasn't the question I asked. For those that feel a pop up flash has a place on a 'pro' camera my request is simple, "show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family, ie, if a P&S or phone could have taken it then we are just relegating our DSLR's to that level, not lifting our image making to a higher level."

That's one of you patented stupid questions designed to have either no answer or the answer you want. It presupposes that the 5D series of cameras are used for nothing other than pro stock photography, product photography or the like. The premise of your question is obviously false. The 5D series of cameras are used for all sorts of different types of photography, including family and vacation photography.

For when I'm shooting professionally, which is 95% events, I'll bring the big lighting gear. But I also use the 5D cameras for family, vacation, and personal photography. For those, a pop up flash is so essential that not having one was such a loss that I went out and bought a crummy, inconvenient replacement. But it's better than the nothing that the camera came with, and also the nothing I would carry on vacation without it.

 

[cfargo]

the entire question is not, "is a pop-up flash good enough to produce professional images as good as carefully lit studio images with a full lighting setup?". Nobody claims it is. Pop-up flash is a useful tool when no other lighting options are immediately available. Not more. But not less, either.

I agree, but that wasn't the question I asked. For those that feel a pop up flash has a place on a 'pro' camera my request is simple, "show me a 'good' photograph where a pop up flash actually made the image? By 'good' I mean an image that has some value other than to the photographer or their family, ie, if a P&S or phone could have taken it then we are just relegating our DSLR's to that level, not lifting our image making to a higher level."

That's one of you patented stupid questions designed to have either no answer or the answer you want. It presupposes that the 5D series of cameras are used for nothing other than pro stock photography, product photography or the like. The premise of your question is obviously false. The 5D series of cameras are used for all sorts of different types of photography, including family and vacation photography.

For when I'm shooting professionally, which is 95% events, I'll bring the big lighting gear. But I also use the 5D cameras for family, vacation, and personal photography. For those, a pop up flash is so essential that not having one was such a loss that I went out and bought a crummy, inconvenient replacement. But it's better than the nothing that the camera came with, and also the nothing I would carry on vacation without it.

I find that most pop up flashes won't work with most pro lenses do to the shadow created by the larger diameter pro lenses. The pop up flashes are normally not high enough to get the light onto the subject without have a shadow on the bottom half, from my lens being in the way.

So I personally never use a popup flash on a DSLR.

 

[Loswr]

But I also use the 5D cameras for family, vacation, and personal photography. For those, a pop up flash is so essential that not having one was such a loss that I went out and bought a crummy, inconvenient replacement. But it's better than the nothing that the camera came with, and also the nothing I would carry on vacation without it.

Obviously, it's a matter of personal preference. 100% of my photography is, "...family vacation and personal." For those, a pop-up flash is so useless that I didn't use it even when my dSLR had one. If a pop up flash is the only way to get the shot, why bother pushing the shutter button at all? Failing to plan is planning to fail. If making good images is a priority, bring a real flash. If simple documentation is the goal, and the 'deer in the headlights' look is acceptable, a smartphone camera or P&S will do as well (or even better, since that would avoid the shadow cast by many lenses when a pop-up flash is used).

 

[Lee Jay]

But I also use the 5D cameras for family, vacation, and personal photography. For those, a pop up flash is so essential that not having one was such a loss that I went out and bought a crummy, inconvenient replacement. But it's better than the nothing that the camera came with, and also the nothing I would carry on vacation without it.

Obviously, it's a matter of personal preference. 100% of my photography is, "...family vacation and personal." For those, a pop-up flash is so useless that I didn't use it even when my dSLR had one. If a pop up flash is the only way to get the shot, why bother pushing the shutter button at all? Failing to plan is planning to fail. If making good images is a priority, bring a real flash. If simple documentation is the goal, and the 'deer in the headlights' look is acceptable, a smartphone camera or P&S will do as well (or even better, since that would avoid the shadow cast by many lenses when a pop-up flash is used).

That's just so wrong, on so many levels.

Not carrying a 580EX means I can carry my 35/1.4L. Since the flash is only used for fill (basically, ever), and the 35L is used for all sorts of things, the 35L wins easily. So I have to carry either no flash or a flash I can carry along with the 35L, and that means a little tiny inconvenient flash I don't really like, or a pop up.

Lenses are generally more important to me than flashes, so I'm not giving up a lens to carry a fancy flash. For those times I know I'm going to need a fancy flash (or two, or three), I carry another bag with my lighting kit. But that's not a vacation thing since it's 5 times the size of my camera bag.

 

[AA]

I'm so sorry for you "I am sooooo pro" guys for not using the pop-up flash on your camera when you needed it. What did you use instead? Your 600 EX-RT that was sitting around at home because it was too heavy to log around?

The best flash is the flash you have with you. That makes the pop-up flash the best flash I can imagine. For vacation shooting, it's perfect. It's light. It requires no extra batteries. It's awesome.

It is down to Canon's incredible arrogance (while sales are falling at an alarmingly rapid rate to smart phones that do have a flash!!!) not to include one.

And yes, you can use it with a 24-70 type lens without blocking the light with the lens.

And no, your 600EX-RT will NOT give you much better results even if you log it around unless you have a transmitter, an umbrella / soft box and a light stand with you (/ can bounce it from a wall, which is rare.) That's at least 3-5 kg right there. Over triple the weight of the camera...

So let me ask these real pros here. When you take a photo with your smartphone, do you bring an external flash unit with you with modifiers or do you use the integrated flash??? How is that any different from a pop-up flash (besides the massive red eye it gives you) on a real camera?

I have Nikon shooter friends who take no flash with them on their vacation... I'm envious of them.

 

[privatebydesign]

I'm so sorry for you "I am sooooo pro" guys for not using the pop-up flash on your camera when you needed it. What did you use instead? Your 600 EX-RT that was sitting around at home because it was too heavy to log around?

The best flash is the flash you have with you. That makes the pop-up flash the best flash I can imagine. For vacation shooting, it's perfect. It's light. It requires no extra batteries. It's awesome.

It is down to Canon's incredible arrogance (while sales are falling at an alarmingly rapid rate to smart phones that do have a flash!!!) not to include one.

And yes, you can use it with a 24-70 type lens without blocking the light with the lens.

And no, your 600EX-RT will NOT give you much better results even if you log it around unless you have a transmitter, an umbrella / soft box and a light stand with you (/ can bounce it from a wall, which is rare.) That's at least 3-5 kg right there. Over triple the weight of the camera...

So let me ask these real pros here. When you take a photo with your smartphone, do you bring an external flash unit with you with modifiers or do you use the integrated flash??? How is that any different from a pop-up flash (besides the massive red eye it gives you) on a real camera?

I have Nikon shooter friends who take no flash with them on their vacation... I'm envious of them.

Dude, that is one pathetic childish rant.

I am not, and have never said, a pro is superior to an amateur, all I have pointed out is that they have different needs. I am a pro photographer, I never take a picture with my phone and I take some god awful images with my DSLR, that isn't the point. The point is as a pro I have never, ever, needed a pop up flash, and I have made a simple request for anybody to post a commercially viable image that has been made because of a pop up flash. There is no judgement call here, just a rational request by those who declare it so to illustrate that it is so.

Besides, if Canon considered it a pro feature it would, by necessity, be on every pro camera they made, yet it has never been on one of them, ever, do you think that might be because a pop up flash is not a 'pro' feature?

 

[SwnSng]

I agree with both sides of the argument here...I didn't pack my 600EX RT on the last trip to Maui and I regretted it. Even the families with a pop-up flash were able to get nice shots with the Sunset exposed properly and the subjects lit with their pop-up.

I had to blow up the background to get the shot and wouldn't even dare try to bracket with 2 young boys who don't even stay still for a 1/200 shot let alone 3 of them

This is the case where a pop-up would have been better than nothing. I do think that these moments are rare though and I know now I would bring the 600ex-rt next time even if the new cameras come with the pop-up. Now if it was also a transmitter that would be a no-brainer of an option.

 

[Lee Jay]

I'm so sorry for you "I am sooooo pro" guys for not using the pop-up flash on your camera when you needed it. What did you use instead? Your 600 EX-RT that was sitting around at home because it was too heavy to log around?

The best flash is the flash you have with you. That makes the pop-up flash the best flash I can imagine. For vacation shooting, it's perfect. It's light. It requires no extra batteries. It's awesome.

It is down to Canon's incredible arrogance (while sales are falling at an alarmingly rapid rate to smart phones that do have a flash!!!) not to include one.

And yes, you can use it with a 24-70 type lens without blocking the light with the lens.

And no, your 600EX-RT will NOT give you much better results even if you log it around unless you have a transmitter, an umbrella / soft box and a light stand with you (/ can bounce it from a wall, which is rare.) That's at least 3-5 kg right there. Over triple the weight of the camera...

So let me ask these real pros here. When you take a photo with your smartphone, do you bring an external flash unit with you with modifiers or do you use the integrated flash??? How is that any different from a pop-up flash (besides the massive red eye it gives you) on a real camera?

I have Nikon shooter friends who take no flash with them on their vacation... I'm envious of them.

Dude, that is one pathetic childish rant.

I am not, and have never said, a pro is superior to an amateur, all I have pointed out is that they have different needs. I am a pro photographer, I never take a picture with my phone and I take some god awful images with my DSLR, that isn't the point. The point is as a pro I have never, ever, needed a pop up flash, and I have made a simple request for anybody to post a commercially viable image that has been made because of a pop up flash. There is no judgement call here, just a rational request by those who declare it so to illustrate that it is so.

Besides, if Canon considered it a pro feature it would, by necessity, be on every pro camera they made, yet it has never been on one of them, ever, do you think that might be because a pop up flash is not a 'pro' feature?

There's no such thing as a "pro" feature.

Canon does this for no good reason (from the customer's point of view). It does save them money, in both ICC and warranty, and I suspect they hope you'll buy one. I did - a Sunpak, not a Canon.

 

[benperrin]

If a pop up flash is the only way to get the shot, why bother pushing the shutter button at all?

This is my philosophy as well. There are some pretty heated posts here making responding in a rational manner difficult. I have to ask though; how many people here that are advocates for pop-up flash are even using a 5 or 1 series and are even interested in this upcoming camera?

Anyway, this topic has been a diversion from the real subject of interest. It will be interesting to see how this new camera performs in the real world and if Canon does indeed launch a 5d4 later in the year.

 

[privatebydesign]

There's no such thing as a "pro" feature.

Canon does this for no good reason (from the customer's point of view). It does save them money, in both ICC and warranty, and I suspect they hope you'll buy one. I did - a Sunpak, not a Canon.

Of course there is, it is something that would have to be on a camera who's target market was primarily professional photographers.

Things like AF point linked spot metering, 100% viewfinder, the best current AF and metering, etc. However a feature being a required feature on a pro orientated camera does not mean it couldn't be seen on a different model, but, if a feature is not included on a professional photographer orientated model then it is not considered a 'pro' feature, that is, a feature required or needed by professional photographers to earn their living.