Canon EOS 5Ds and EOS 5Ds R Preview

[RLPhoto]

BIG DISSAPOINTMENT!

I really believed this would be a game changer. Instead it seems we are getting a 50MP FF 7DII.

I had, for all practical purposes, three major items on my motivation list, in order of priority: DR, Low ISO noise and resolution. I get resolution. I still don't know what to expect from noise, but it seems I can conclude that DR still lags at least 3 stops behind Sony/Nikon. BIG dissapointment.

Bryan is happy to use HDR/bracketing to solve this issue. Animals don't sit still! Insects don't sit still, wind moves trees, leaves, grass, hair etc. etc. The only way to get all information out of a high contrast image is to have sufficient DR. BIG dissapointment!

I was ready to push the preorder button as soon as it turned green. Now I'll spend the weekend going through my gear and figure out what I'll keep and what I'll sell. Unless I get magnificent noise performance, I think I'm done!

You know what? I agree 100%... I have been very happy, and I still am, with the 1dX, but a 50mp 7d in the new big splash 5d announcement is just really very very lousy.... That means THIS is the landscape camera they made an effort with, and the 1dx2 and 5d4 will not be better in terms of sensor tech, dr, low iso noise and so on. So the next chance for Canon to catch up is 4-5 years down the line... It's just too much stupid. I'm not in the DR-crowd, but to see the same sensor tech as 2007 is just not good for Canon. And all the people that still didn't leave Canon when the 5d3 came out, I think a lot of them will now. The 11-24 can always be adapted to Nikon :

Sorry to say that, but the whole talk you just gave is nothing but nonsense.

Nobody who makes great outstanding images.. nobody.. cares for 1 cent about 1 stop of DR difference.
Only amateurs on internet forums are obsessed with tech talk. THAT is dissapointing for the whole Photography scene....

and why then are we looking after better lenses, higher resolution??
only a fool can come up with a answer like yours

The only FOOL here is you and people who think better gear or 2 stops more DR will make them better Photographer. You just kidding yourself. But my breath is wasted on people like you....

I smell Troll and it smells like a rancid canon fanboy.

oh we dont want a canon fanboy on a canon site.. do we?
we only want rancid sony and nikon fanboys here .. right?

Its not a offical canon site and some fanboys of common sense.

 

[bluemoon]

What is not to like?

http://canon-premium.webcdn.stream.ne.jp/www09/canon-premium/eosd/samples/eos5ds/downloads/01.jpg

and this is JPG!

am I the only one that checked that image out? The detail is phenomenal!

pierre

 

[MichaelHodges]

No DR improvement?

Not much point to any of this, then.

 

[Marsu42]

The detail is phenomenal!

Even w/o viewing samples, I don't find it hard to imagine how a high-res image looks like, and it's not like the 5ds is the first camera to do so. At the very least, the camera can serve as a magnifying glass and nice toy

It's just that to achieve this detail a lot of conditions have to be met at the same time, i.e. "studio work" or "controlled setting" or "tripod landscape". You cannot just snap away and expect 50mp to be sharp at pixel level - and if it isn't, there's really no point to go for this resolution in the first place.

 

[Sarpedon]

C'mon, can we please stop the attacks against those who would like to see more DR?

And please do not kid yourselves, there are thousands upon thousands of full-time pros and extremely talented amateurs, who consider DR when buying cameras, or get annoyed working around it when they don't have enough. It is definitely not an issue for everyone, but to suggest it should not be an issue for anyone is just the vocalisation of staggering ignorance. And yes, pros do care about a stop of dynamic range and banding when it stops them from putting an image on the wall for an exhibition, or selling it to client. And yes, this does happen enough to be a real nuisance.

If Canon was now producing bodies with 14+ stops of DR there would be very few discussions on this topic, because the issue would be dealt with. Do you hear Sony and Nikon users arguing about DR, complaining that they don't have enough? No, but do you know why? It is because 14+ stops can make a very significant difference over 11.7, but beyond 14 gains become fairly irrelevant. In short, they have what they want and those who did not want it are no worse off. Pretty well very other manufacturer now offers bodies with north of 14 stops, so all the advocates of more DR are asking is to be provided with a FF Canon with the sort of DR we are now accustomed to from APS-C and some M43 cameras. That's not too outrageous, is it?

If you don't need the DR you will never use it, but you won't lose out either, so nobody stands to suffer or have their candy taken away, do they? So why is there a need to attack people who would like to see more DR? Are we allowed to feel disappointed, or do you find this unacceptable because it makes you feel less good about being a Canon owner? I own lots of Canon gear, but I am also disappointed in the lack of improvements in DR. I feel no conflict. My left arm is not thumping my right... and that's because I am a grown up.

None of this takes anything away from the great features the 5Ds has brought to the show. We can like them and not like the DR shortfall. Why does everything have to be polarised?

A thoroughly reasonable, level-headed post. Thank you.

 

[emko]

No DR improvement?

Not much point to any of this, then.

Yup Canon knew that they could not compete with the 36MP Sony sensor at low ISO and DR so they made the 50MP sensor to win at something but once Sony does a 50MP sensor i don't know what Canon will do?

 

[Eldar]

The detail is phenomenal!

Even w/o viewing samples, I don't find it hard to imagine how a high-res image looks like, and it's not like the 5ds is the first camera to do so. At the very least, the camera can serve as a magnifying glass and nice toy

It's just that to achieve this detail a lot of conditions have to be met at the same time, i.e. "studio work" or "controlled setting" or "tripod landscape". You cannot just snap away and expect 50mp to be sharp at pixel level - and if it isn't, there's really no point to go for this resolution in the first place.

We all expected detail to be phenomenal, given this is a 50MP camera. And for these kind of very controlled shots, with good clearance to the boundaries of its dynamic range, they should look great. But we do not have clue how it´s been processed. If this was a jpeg straight out of the camera, it would say something, but we can assume that some good pros have worked it first.

Here´ s another one from the same publication. From a demonstrator point of view, I´m surprised they didn´t use a TS-E lens, but that aside, I think this adds to your point and I don´t think this is very impressive.
http://canon-premium.webcdn.stream.ne.jp/www09/canon-premium/eosd/samples/eos5ds/downloads/02.jpg

 

[fragilesi]

It's just that to achieve this detail a lot of conditions have to be met at the same time, i.e. "studio work" or "controlled setting" or "tripod landscape". You cannot just snap away and expect 50mp to be sharp at pixel level - and if it isn't, there's really no point to go for this resolution in the first place.

Err, aren't lots of shots done in the studio, controlled settings or on a tripod? Especially professional work.

That's what it's for . . .

 

[Larry]

"Per Chuck Westfall, no HDMI out is provided."

Isn't an HDMI out a great aid in focusing stills, by displaying the image on a larger-than-camera's screen?

and he's wrong. Per the Canon USA spec page:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_5ds#Specifications

HDMI out IS on there

Yes, mini-HDMI.

On the same Canon spec page, under "Highlight Alert" section - the following incomplete sentence:

"With single-image display (Info.) and single-image display, overexposed highlight areas will" ...

Will what? Anyone know?

Thanks

 

[3kramd5]

On the same Canon spec page, under "Highlight Alert" section - the following incomplete sentence:

"With single-image display (Info.) and single-image display, overexposed highlight areas will" ...

Will what? Anyone know?

Thanks

Blink, I'm guessing.

 

[TomF]

As some reference to a 50 MP sensor, I currently use a Hasselblad back of this image size and can comment that size does matter at some point. For example a photo taken of climbers working across a glacier at some distance will allow one to see that they have two legs instead of one in the larger MP image. I would expect that for landscape this should be an excellent rig with careful work and the best lenses. The Hasselblad will still probably win out in dynamic range if not higher ISO performance.

What all this means is a careful worker with good lenses, proper exposure etc should be able to do well indeed. Do most jobs need a high definition image? Probably not.

Tom

 

[Marsu42]

Err, aren't lots of shots done in the studio, controlled settings or on a tripod?

I agree 100%, that's why the 5ds will find its market ...

Especially professional work.

I agree 50%, there's also a lot of paid event/wedding work and some select wildlife pays, too ...

That's what it's for . . .

There's no sticker on the 5ds box saying what it's for, it's up to the market to figure this out. One € earned from a customer using it not "what it's for" is still one €. I'm sure a lot of people starting with Nikon's d800 have learned it the hard way that there are some problems attached to a high mp sensor.

 

[Arkarch]

It's just that to achieve this detail a lot of conditions have to be met at the same time, i.e. "studio work" or "controlled setting" or "tripod landscape". You cannot just snap away and expect 50mp to be sharp at pixel level - and if it isn't, there's really no point to go for this resolution in the first place.

Err, aren't lots of shots done in the studio, controlled settings or on a tripod? Especially professional work.

That's what it's for . . .

Well yeah, thats also Chuck makes the point about a more robust tripod mount, controlled shutter, delay timing and so on.

Nearly all my landscape shots are done on a Manfrotto 055 tripod, live view/mirror up, and remote shutter, manual focus, manual exposure (watching the histogram) with info on, and a bracket 1/3 - 2/3 each way. Then its on to extensive post with Capture One, then PS + NIK + Topaz, all in 10-bit/channel ProPhotoRGB color workflow. Yeah, time consuming - and I do stare at images for hours.

Now I did rent an A7R + Metabones for a couple weeks last year. Did side-by-sides with the 5DS. The A7R shots did have a different quality - more resolution of course, and a bit more contrasty - a different 'feel' or tone. As I work through sets, I am using some from the A7R and some from the 5D3. Yes, you heard me, sometimes I do prefer the 5D3 shot over the A7R.

I am still thinking about using an A7R as an alternate "camera back" on shoots. I'd love to consider it for primary work, but as I noted in another post, I dont think the EVF replaces an optical viewfinder (though it has some nice features like peaking and will get better); nor do I like the small size (big hands); or the layered menu system (reminds me of some Yaesu HAM radios where I have to bring the manual to remember the option numbers). But I may still get one. June is four months away and maybe Sony will surprise.

But for now, the 5DS R will take care of my #1 need - resolution for prints. I have the super computer, could use some 4K Eizo or NEC PA monitors now Everything else is irrelevant to my shooting or can be handled in post.

Unless I decide to go crazy and get a 645Z.

 

[bluemoon]

The detail is phenomenal!

Even w/o viewing samples, I don't find it hard to imagine how a high-res image looks like, and it's not like the 5ds is the first camera to do so. At the very least, the camera can serve as a magnifying glass and nice toy

It's just that to achieve this detail a lot of conditions have to be met at the same time, i.e. "studio work" or "controlled setting" or "tripod landscape". You cannot just snap away and expect 50mp to be sharp at pixel level - and if it isn't, there's really no point to go for this resolution in the first place.

We all expected detail to be phenomenal, given this is a 50MP camera. And for these kind of very controlled shots, with good clearance to the boundaries of its dynamic range, they should look great. But we do not have clue how it´s been processed. If this was a jpeg straight out of the camera, it would say something, but we can assume that some good pros have worked it first.

Here´ s another one from the same publication. From a demonstrator point of view, I´m surprised they didn´t use a TS-E lens, but that aside, I think this adds to your point and I don´t think this is very impressive.
http://canon-premium.webcdn.stream.ne.jp/www09/canon-premium/eosd/samples/eos5ds/downloads/02.jpg

as already mentioned here, there is a time and place for a camera like this one, my thinking is it will be a whole lot of time and whole lot more places than this thread seems to indicate. Yes, yes, yes, there are improvements we would all like to see, but they are not here and not much can be done about it. I for one am glad to have another option for my glass if need be! It is not on my purchase list, but it will be on my rental list.

As far as the sample image, I would certainly hope that is direct from the camera! Doctored images to show of the sensor's capability would be false advertising. From what I remember, all the previous sample shots were straight out of the camera or any processing was disclosed.

Agreed that the panorama image is nothing special, the skin texture though I thought was worth talking about.

pierre

 

[quod]

Bryan Carnathan states in his preview that the 5DS will have more noise than the 5D3. This came from Chuck Westfall. He does not discuss the noise profile.

Actually they say the noise levels will be between 5D MK2 and 5D MK3 but the noise floor will be lower.

What EXACTLY is your point? The 5D2 is noisier than the 5D3. So, my statement is accurate.

 

[Jester237]

We all expected detail to be phenomenal, given this is a 50MP camera. And for these kind of very controlled shots, with good clearance to the boundaries of its dynamic range, they should look great. But we do not have clue how it´s been processed. If this was a jpeg straight out of the camera, it would say something, but we can assume that some good pros have worked it first.

Here´ s another one from the same publication. From a demonstrator point of view, I´m surprised they didn´t use a TS-E lens, but that aside, I think this adds to your point and I don´t think this is very impressive.
http://canon-premium.webcdn.stream.ne.jp/www09/canon-premium/eosd/samples/eos5ds/downloads/02.jpg

Personally I don't expect phenomenal details from this body When Nikon D800 appear was clear, that there no lens to resolve sensor. Ok, now we have 2 Otus. And yes, we don't know how this image was processed. Video sample from Canon have strange look as for me.
What i expect from new Canon body:
1. Rich, but delicate color rendition, without warm skin tone. Especially for video. Like latest Sony sensor.
2. More DR.
For this 2 point, i can forgive Canon a lot. Surely, we can't get it from Canon now. And sample 01.jpg has ugly shadows. Again. In controlled light. Skin in shadow below necklace...

3. Less shutter lag.
4. Faster fps.
Surely, we can't get it (1Dx still exist)

5. UHS for SD card. Bingo! We get it
So, i will live with 1Dx + 5D Mark III until next FF. And yes, we already buy Sony camera body with AF adapter for Canon lens

 

[paul]

No shooting mode info in the viewfinder !? Eos 7DII does...

 

[fragilesi]

Especially professional work.

I agree 50%, there's also a lot of paid event/wedding work and some select wildlife pays, too ...

That's what it's for . . .

There's no sticker on the 5ds box saying what it's for, it's up to the market to figure this out. One € earned from a customer using it not "what it's for" is still one €. I'm sure a lot of people starting with Nikon's d800 have learned it the hard way that there are some problems attached to a high mp sensor.

On the first point note the "especially" but equally a lot of amateurs shoot under such controlled conditions.

And sorry but that's a clear use case for the 5Ds, it's not for the market to do anything. Those who know and need such a camera will consider it and I suspect get great results. If people mis-use it that doesn't change the qualities or usefulness of the camera any more or less than it did with the D800. Canon said they would produce a "High MP" camera and they have done that overtaking the opposition in that regard. No innovation some are STILL saying . . .

To be honest, if people have that much money to splash around on something that they can't be bothered to get advice on or understand for themselves by research I'm not sure what any camera manufacturer should be expected to do about it.

This is intended to be a top quality tool for the kinds of people that know how to use it for its intended purpose. Time and reviews will tell but I think once again those talking about increased DR as if it is vital to the usefulness of this camera are missing the point of the design.

Now, I will say that I will be surprised if the 5DIV / next 1Dx doesn't go some way to redressing that balance; even if I'm in the crowd that doesn't see it as being the most important aspect of the camera.

 

[drjlo]

I cannot see why I should swap my 5DIII for this...

Of course not. It was never intended to be a replacement for the 5DIII. It's a niche market camera for those who need (or just want) high resolution.

Yeah, no way will 5Ds replace my 5DIII. On the other hand, those who want higher resolution (for landscape, etc) will not be all that pleased with no improvement in DR of 5Ds.

Combined with Canon's decision not to bring EOS M3 to North America, I feel good about my decision to buy (again) A7r and Zeiss 55 f/1.8 last week. I had bought and returned the combo previously, hoping Canon would bring to market something with better DR and/or portability, but that's turning out to be a pipedream :'(

SonyA7r Zeiss FE55 by drjlo1, on Flickr

 

[ykn123]

Well i would like to see how the 5Ds/5DsR competes against a medium format like PhaseOne or Pentax 645z. I wonder whether i can use it (much better handling, way cheaper, use my glass) for clients requiring high resolution images. (Fashion shoots, very very large prints etc.) Sure it wont replace my 1DX's or 5DM3's - no problem, its simply made for other purposes. I give a damn on 5 or 6fps in a studio environment and I still try to understand why people moaning about ISO 6400. Why in the world should i purchase a 50MP camera (no matter what brand) in order to get high resolution images and shoot with anything other than ISO 100 ?

The greatest photographs have been done already - with technology that we would consider old school now. I just wonder about the ongoing discussion about DR and Canon going to lose big time.... - get any of todays cameras (whatever brand) and do some nice photographs...