Canon EOS 5DS R Mark II Talk [CR2]

[rrcphoto]

The question probably boils down to:

Which do you want more, A 60 mpx sensor with the ISO performance of the 80D, or a 120mpx sensor with significantly poorer ISO performance (laws of physics)?

not true at all. because you ignored oversampling and the fact that if you re-sampled and NR'ed the 120MP data down to 60MP you'd have a cleaner image than the 60MP native.

laws of physics don't take into account sampling theory or post processed NR.

even if you just showed the two images side by side at the same image size, the 120Mp would look cleaner.

what you fully won't make up with oversampling is DR because canon doesn't use BSI.

 

[mistaspeedy]

not true at all. because you ignored oversampling and the fact that if you re-sampled and NR'ed the 120MP data down to 60MP you'd have a cleaner image than the 60MP native.

Exactly...

People forget that the 5DsR had the BEST (low ISO) dynamic range of any Canon camera released at the time. But downsampling is needed in order to see this (if viewing on PC)... or just print at the same size as another Canon camera.

 

[jolyonralph]

not true at all. because you ignored oversampling and the fact that if you re-sampled and NR'ed the 120MP data down to 60MP you'd have a cleaner image than the 60MP native.

Read my subsequent message - I already dealt with this.

I'd love a 120mpx camera, but I don't think there's enough demand for it, because it will be a pain to work with such huge files, it'll be slow and you'll have to downsample almost everything to make it worthwhile.

 

[Daan Stam]

So.... that should mean focus peaking is in the 90d???

 

[midluk]

I hope the "Identical body to the EOS 5D Mark IV" part is not true. As a high resolution camera that is often used in live view on a tripod, an up-down tilting screen would be really useful.

 

[Mancubus]

Now this is finally getting interesting.

I want to change my 5D3 for something newer, but:

- 5DSR has no touch screen
- 5D4 has too strong AA filter
- 1DX II is too expensive

For 95% of my work 20mp is enough. If this 5DSR2 has an option for a similar resolution keeping a good image quality, then it's definitely the camera for me. I don't need speed so 5fps would do.

I'm looking for:
- DR improvement over 5D4
- a lower mp (20-24) raw option with some good downsampling for maximum quality and reduced noise
- touch screen
- PLEASE retire the DAMN old SD card for the second slot, make it UHS-II ffs
- NO AA filter

Under 4000usd please.

 

[traveller]

A 60-ish megapixel sensor would effectively be the 24MP 80D sensor upscaled to full frame. Shove that in a 5DIV body, just like the 5DS(R) was an upscaled 7DII sensor in a modified 5DIII body, and you have a very plausible 5DSII rumour.

The question is whether this would be enough in a year's time to tempt people to stay the course with Canon. A 60MP, 5fps 5DSII in a 5DIV spec body represents what I regard as the default update, as it simply combines technologies that Canon already has in production. Unfortunately, whilst this would have sounded awesome just a couple of months ago, it already seems a touch pedestrian versus the Nikon D850. I also expect that Sony will be updating the A7R series next year (or perhaps even bringing out an A9R); I suspect this will be pretty impressive, judging by the A9 and the oft-overlooked A99II.

I see three possibilities for the 5DSII:

[list type=decimal]
[*]5DIV body with a 60MP (-ish) sensor (80D sensor upscaled) at 5fps
[*]5DIV body with very high resolution sensor (>80MP) at 5fps
[*]New body:

• 60MP(+?)
• 7fps
• 0.76x viewfinder from 1-series (bonus points for hybrid, or at least hot-shoe wired for external EVF)
• tilting LCD
• upgraded 4K video specs -I'm no video expert, but perhaps: a better codec; C-Log (without paid upgrade!); larger sensor area used (smaller crop factor)
• a few pleasant surprises perhaps!

[/list]

The above are arranged in (descending) order of what I believe to be weakest to strongest order... and in order of most to least likely!

 

[traveller]

Now this is finally getting interesting.

I want to change my 5D3 for something newer, but:

- 5DSR has no touch screen
- 5D4 has too strong AA filter
- 1DX II is too expensive

For 95% of my work 20mp is enough. If this 5DSR2 has an option for a similar resolution keeping a good image quality, then it's definitely the camera for me. I don't need speed so 5fps would do.

I'm looking for:
- DR improvement over 5D4
- a lower mp (20-24) raw option with some good downsampling for maximum quality and reduced noise
- touch screen
- PLEASE retire the DAMN old SD card for the second slot, make it UHS-II ffs
- NO AA filter

Under 4000usd please.

Dude, given the specifications that you're asking for, I really think that the 5DIV is a great fit for you!

• I don't think that you are going to get Canon to produce another 5-series body with the 1DXII sensor, so you'll have to live with 30MP. I don't see how your complaint about the AA filter on the 5DIV sits alongside your complaint of excessive sensor resolution... Downsizing and proper sharpening will achieve everything that you are asking for in terms of resolution, edge acuity and DR (not that the 5DIV is a slouch on any of these counts at native resolution) -you can even make an action to batch this in PS/LR.
• The 5DIV already has the (very well implemented) touch screen interface you request.
• I'm not sure what you are asking for with regard to the storage card media, as you are asking for Canon to dump the SD card, but then ask for UHS-II, which is an SD card standard

 

[rrcphoto]

not true at all. because you ignored oversampling and the fact that if you re-sampled and NR'ed the 120MP data down to 60MP you'd have a cleaner image than the 60MP native.

Read my subsequent message - I already dealt with this.

I'd love a 120mpx camera, but I don't think there's enough demand for it, because it will be a pain to work with such huge files, it'll be slow and you'll have to downsample almost everything to make it worthwhile.

then you use sRAW. which is a 2x2 approx bin. if I recall which would be 30MP.

I regularly process and manipulate bigger pano files that make 120MP look tiny. I don't see the problem on any real modern computer nowadays.

 

[masterpix]

The main issues that this camera will need to face are:

Sharpness of the lenses and hand shaking, which is a factor of the pixel size on the sensor, the more pixels, the less tolerance the sensor is to lens "mistakes" and hand held movement, it will limit the benefits of image stabilizers and will make non IS lenses impossible to use.

The other issue is high ISO, the 5Ds/sr maximal Iso was 1600 which is not much (in some cases, to get a high speed shooting (animals, children "on the loose" etc) one need to get as high ISO as possible to be able to capture the moment. The 5D has high ISO over 32000, the 7DII had 16000. High ISO means also less noise in lower ISO, to shooting at 1600 with the 5D is no match to the 5Ds/sr at the same ISO.

Once Canon engineers will resolve those two, then it will be the camera of choice for many, although for many practical reasons, 20-24MP and above it way too much for the general photographer (or their Hard-Drive).

They will have a lot to work on, especially when Nikon and Sony are gaining "speed" on those issues.

 

[mistaspeedy]

5Ds(R) ISO range is up to ISO 6400 native, with 12800 expanded.

But yeah, I agree that a higher native maximum ISO range would be good to have (along with better performance at the more moderate 'high' ISOs)

 

[Maiaibing]

I'd love a 120mpx camera, but I don't think there's enough demand for it, because it will be a pain to work with such huge files, it'll be slow and you'll have to downsample almost everything to make it worthwhile.

You are confused. There is no need to "downsample" anything - ever. "Downsampling" is not something any photographer "does" with his/her pictures and has nothing to do with how you view your results on screen or in print - its only - and exclusively - used as a technical path to compare different sensors, but has no meaning when viewing your resulting final images.

 

[swithdrawn]

not to mention prior comments. DPAF on this camera does not pass the sniff test either.

neither does a 2.2x (or whatever that would end up being) crop for 4K output as well.

I'm curious about 4k -- I'm cynical so I have to believe Canon will continue doing their center 1:1 readout with an absurdly high crop factor than suddenly decide to implement proper downsampling. But if they do, along with c-log, it would be a great B cam to the C series.

 

[Maiaibing]

The main issues that this camera will need to face are:

Sharpness of the lenses and hand shaking, which is a factor of the pixel size on the sensor, the more pixels, the less tolerance the sensor is to lens "mistakes" and hand held movement, it will limit the benefits of image stabilizers and will make non IS lenses impossible to use.

Nonsense... Having problems with your 5DIII or 5DIV???? Otherwise you are good. If you want - a lot - sharper images than with the 5DIII or 5DIV use a tripod.

The other issue is high ISO, the 5Ds/sr maximal Iso was 1600 which is not much (in some cases, to get a high speed shooting (animals, children "on the loose" etc) one need to get as high ISO as possible to be able to capture the moment.

Since you can just press the files to iso 50.000 (or whatever) for the same result as if it had a dial going that high its hardly relevant. However, I do think Canon made a silly mistake in not just including an iso 25.600/53,200 setting.

 

[keithcooper]

...
and you're wrong on the lenses, you're into the world of oversampling. every lens will improve even the worst.

+1 that.

A lot of earnest uniformed nonsense about lenses not being good enough was spouted when I first got a 1Ds3, and similarly with the 5Ds

Experience suggests that 120MP will give bigger and better files from all my lenses (it is bayer as well BTW)

'Just' 60MP might remind me why I previously updated every other model release.

 

[KeithBreazeal]

Oh hell no!
My 5DS already put a dent in the budget by having to buy more drives.
I'm in the process of investing in good glass for the 5DS and wonder how many lenses
currently available would be capable or a good match for 60 MP.
One distinct advantage would be "one-shot" panoramas. My 5DS and the Sigma 14mm f1.8 Art
can do this very well.
Lightroom performance will reach an all-time low.

 

[wockawocka]

If it wasn't for needing better shadow pull, touch screen and burst speed I'd still be using my 5DSr's.

(Hopefully) if this new low MP mode rings true it should be better than Sraw (which always looked funny).

 

[Tangent]

BUT, if it has on chip ADC type base IQ improvements I'll get one whatever else is or isn't on the spec sheet, if it doesn't I won't.

This is it. Nothing else matter.

Agree.

 

[rrcphoto]

I'd love a 120mpx camera, but I don't think there's enough demand for it, because it will be a pain to work with such huge files, it'll be slow and you'll have to downsample almost everything to make it worthwhile.

You are confused. There is no need to "downsample" anything - ever. "Downsampling" is not something any photographer "does" with his/her pictures and has nothing to do with how you view your results on screen or in print - its only - and exclusively - used as a technical path to compare different sensors, but has no meaning when viewing your resulting final images.

sure they do. I take 600mp stitched images all the time and downsample them for additional clarity and sharpness.

My sigma merrills are marvelous for doing this.

 

[Memdroid]

I sold my 5dsr last month because I used my 1dx2 and 5d4 more. But if they address the slow operarion (note not the fps speed) and retain the same functions as the 5d4 than I will be all over that thing. Oh and please retain the colors just like the original 5ds/r. Those colors are probaly Canons's best ever!