Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?

[Sunnystate]

Canon had better wake up and move on this. I've been saying for months the iPhone 5 and new Androids with 8MP cameras are going to wipe out the P&S market, which means the real battle ground for market share will be in the EVIL systems. So far Sony looks to have redefinded the segment with the NEX-7, I honestly I think it could be a game changer, and make many SLRs obsolete.

Agreed!

It is hard to blame Canon or Nikon for playing the waiting game, profits are just incredible and it will probably never happen again that an average aspiring amateur will pay voluntarily 3X the price of most advanced professional body just 10 years a go! (look at the culture right here on CR, to have the best and newest! Lets just hope no kids go hungry, or are loosing college funds because of this super expensive hobby of ours).

Adding that both Canon and Nikon have all the necessary base, expertise with lenses and all sort of body designs from the times of film point and shoot era, there are no doubts that waiting is intentional, and may be proven rather short sighted.
I love pro equipment to, and have spent my share for stuff, like brand new Hasselblad, two Toyo cameras, twinlens Rolleiflex etc. that have been barely used and now collecting dust.
There are some changes needed, Sony is smart enough, and have nothing to loose to take advantage of this, let's hope Canon did not adopt the new prevalent business philosophy of making as much, as fast money for as long as possible, without thinking of future...

 

[moreorless]

Nikon's system might not look the most exciting with the smaller sensor but I'm thinking it could proove to me well choosen. Large enough to potentially give noticeble benefits over bridge cameras but small enough to keep the lens size down to something pocketable.

If Canon put out something with a full crop sensor then personally I think they'd be better off focusing on a range of prime lenses.

 

[macfly]

I'd be more inclined to want perfect primes than a zoom, a high end Canon M9 competitor would be my first choice. Obviously I use the EOS system for work, but I've ordered a NEX-7 with a pancake lens as a replacement for the G12 which I hated so much I gave to a friends kid the other week. Felt kind of bad giving him such a terrible camera, but I figured he won't know the difference as it'll be his first proper camera.

 

[DuLt]

What would be the implications of canon entering a mirrorless market with whole new lenses? Pretty much like when EF was introduced.

 

[CanineCandidsByL]

What would be the implications of canon entering a mirrorless market with whole new lenses? Pretty much like when EF was introduced.

That would all depend how the camera is released. If this is a new generation of cameras that are between SLR & current point&shoots, then new lens would be great. I'd hope we see features similar to some other manufactures where the lens and body protect themselves by effectively have built in covers when lens are detached. If this could be implemented on current SLRs without breaking current lenses, I'd pay at least a $100 premium for such lenses. But for consumers who don't understand dirty sensor and likely to reach in and clean with their finger, its almost mandatory.

On the other hand, if such cameras were meant to replace existing SLRs, then changing lenses presents an "oportunity" for customers to abandon Canon for other vendors, which isn't desirable. For better or worse, compatibility of lenses within a vendor ocks us into that vendor or vendor family (3rd party lenses).

 

[archfotos]

Let's just hope that when Canon does bring forth a small portable mirror-less camera they see where these (Oly, Pansic, Sony) fail. Reading many threads it's obvious that this style of mirror-less camera is for the advanced user that wants the ultimate Henri Cartier Bresson camera/1080 60p recorder. So toss out all that auto jpg crap that bloats the menus, the RAW vs Jpg debate has been dead for some time.

None of these cameras to date were made for the truly active (weather resident, shock proof) lifestyle where they are going to be used, mounting them in harms way, bashing around in the back of a Toyota with twenty other smelly souls, using them in a waterproof housing. How about connecting them to a pocket wizard for reliable remote firing? How about making the Time-lapse photographer's dream with an electronic shutter system and ultra quite use. Can any of these cameras even accept shutter release remotes?

Again I just hope when Canon does bring out their Mirror-less large chipped camera they bring one out with the old philosophy of the rugged built 1 series tough body in a super compact size that is made for all the "different" applications the advance user can throw at it not just a bunch of cheesy pre-programed jpg styles that can only survive walking around the mall.

 

[CanineCandidsByL]

RAW vs Jpg debate has been dead for some time.

Sorry, I hate doing this...

The debate should be dead, but the answer is "depends". There are people who need max fps & most continous high speed frames, for them jpg is the answer. Where this isn't the case, RAW quality is usually preferable.

I have had cases where I found my laptop dead (couldn't offload) or didn't have much space left and didn't have time to offload. I had to switch to jpg.

And, there are some good work scenerios where JPG can present a quick high-quality preview with some basic touchup for use on preview displays. But ultimately you want to work with RAW in final.

In the mis-spoken works of kodacrome users,
"Please don't take my jpg away"

 

[c.d.embrey]

Yes the nex 7 is small and light as a PS but only with the smallest lenses. With a 18-55 it is already much bigger and with a 18-200 there is no advantage in size compared to a DSLR

Have you ever seen a Leica with a 18-200??? Cameras like the Leica and NEX 7 work best with short primes.

 

[EYEONE]

Canon had better wake up and move on this. I've been saying for months the iPhone 5 and new Androids with 8MP cameras are going to wipe out the P&S market, which means the real battle ground for market share will be in the EVIL systems. So far Sony looks to have redefinded the segment with the NEX-7, I honestly I think it could be a game changer, and make many SLRs obsolete.

I have a Android with a 8mp sensor that takes the worst pictures possible. Just sayin'

 

[boh]

There are some great similarities between how Microsoft did not understand the tablet (iPad) and refused to get into the game (now they are rushing into it with 'Windows 8') and the waiting game that Canon seems to have adopted. It’s a different tool for different needs and also for different market segments. I have a Canon 5D II, which I love and is great for many things, but I just bought a Pen E-P3, which is a very different camera but actually superior in some ways. I want to use it for some travel and mostly for street photography. It is very quick and a lot less intrusive than a full blown SLR. People react differently to it and you can get shots which would have been hard with my Canon. I bought it with the standard 14-42mm lens (x2 for you FF people), which is surprisingly sharp, but the line-up I am aiming at includes the Olympus 12/2, Leica-Pan 25/1.4, and Olympus 45/1.8. There are all serious lenses that can produce some awesome results. I can carry this in my jacked all day without even thinking about it.

Does it resolve as much as a FF? No, of course not! But getting the photo and the story that photo is meant to tell should always be more important than the alignment and absolute number of pixels that went into producing it. The quality is ‘good enough’ for me and I am used to what my 5D and L lenses can produce. But more than anything the format opens up new possibilities with similar control possibilities. I will have both systems.

The fact that the E-P3 looks stunning and is so well made just adds to the great feeling of picking it up. You can put that down on any café table in Rome and look the part of the scenery, which any street photographer will tell you is the most important!

My 2 c’s!

 

[Lawliet]

What would be the implications of canon entering a mirrorless market with whole new lenses? Pretty much like when EF was introduced.

The main payoff of that gambit was a completely flexible interface. With the some wiring and firmware an EOS could literally read from a digital thermometer or tap into the device bus of my car and send music from its memory card to the stereo or control the windows.

The Nikon EVIL seems to get on sensor PDAF for the rough adjustment, so either Canon should be either able to implement fast CDAF or just follow suit.

A new lens line similar to EF-s, with an adapter that offers full functionality for current lenses? Why not? Same deal, buy mostly EF and the lenses that offer distinct advantages for the new mount. No bad blood, no lost customers. Once EVIL matures into the high end lines you have everything ready for action, no mandatory big investments or uncertainties.

OTOH dropping the ball the way Sony and Olympus did wouldn't sit to well.

 

[Mark D5 TEAM II]

I have a 50d and got a Nex 7 in my hands some time ago. Yes the nex 7 is small and light as a PS but only with the smallest lenses. With a 18-55 it is already much bigger and with a 18-200 there is no advantage in size compared to a DSLR. For me (this is subjectiv) there is no advantage over a DSLR. If i need a small camera for my jeans pocket i would by a S95 which is impressiv in terms of image quality and low light ability at least for static subjects.

I also don't get this gadget collector fad, must be a symptom of having too much disposable income. EVIL cameras are only compact with pancake primes, it's unergonomic and unwieldy once attached to more useful lenses. There's an easy shortcut for Canon if they really want to get into this niche market, just buy Oly or any of the other smaller camera makers. And oh, iFruitcakes & most Android camphones sUx0rs at image quality. Best camphone IQ I've seen is still from the Nokia N82, Samsung i8510 Innov8 and the Nokia N8 (which has a 1/1.7" sensor, bigger than most P&S cameras).

 

[macfly]

I also don't get this gadget collector fad

It's simple really, when you love your craft you're excited to try out all the new tools that may change what you can do, and give you something better or different to the other tools you have. I assisted for 8 years before becoming a photograper myself over 25 years ago, and every photographer I know is fascinated by the tools of our trade. If you aren't that interested then you aren't that serious, which begs the question, why are here on a rumor site?

 

[Lawliet]

Thats more a definition of gearhead wit a job in the relevant area.
I'm more interested in solutions to challenges related to the picture I want to take.

 

[moreorless]

I'd be more inclined to want perfect primes than a zoom, a high end Canon M9 competitor would be my first choice. Obviously I use the EOS system for work, but I've ordered a NEX-7 with a pancake lens as a replacement for the G12 which I hated so much I gave to a friends kid the other week. Felt kind of bad giving him such a terrible camera, but I figured he won't know the difference as it'll be his first proper camera.

With a M9 competator I wouldnt say the need for an "all prime" system is as great personally, the camera might be a bit more unbalanced with zooms but more serious photographers will be more used to that. With something like the NEX though your dealing with a more unbalanced system and comsumers less likely ro accept it, plus of course the difference between pocketable and not.

Thats I'd guess part of what is holding Canon and Nikon back, they want to let others test the waters and see whether amature comsumers are willing to unaccept either an unbalanced system or one based around primes.

 

[Flake]

I do have a wry smile when I read about 'perfect' primes, and I wonder which lenses are considered to be 'perfect'?

I also wonder how it is that the guys & girls at <agnum manage to keep at the top of their game without these 'perfect' lenses. Lets face it, photography is not about gear and gear does not make a top photographer.

The NEX 7 choice says more about this particular poster and his understanding of photography than anything else. The 24MP APSc sensor begins diffraction at just f/5.6 and because of the high MP count there are DoF issues.

The G12 is a great little camera, used by Photo Professionals the world over, the statement that it's a terrible camera adain shows you have more money than sense, and certainly not the first clue about photography. When you're done with the NEX please let me know because I'm sure I could produce some decent images with it! (there are some photographers who can produce stunning images with a pinhole!)

 

[DuLt]

What would be the implications of canon entering a mirrorless market with whole new lenses? Pretty much like when EF was introduced.

The main payoff of that gambit was a completely flexible interface. With the some wiring and firmware an EOS could literally read from a digital thermometer or tap into the device bus of my car and send music from its memory card to the stereo or control the windows.

The Nikon EVIL seems to get on sensor PDAF for the rough adjustment, so either Canon should be either able to implement fast CDAF or just follow suit.

A new lens line similar to EF-s, with an adapter that offers full functionality for current lenses? Why not? Same deal, buy mostly EF and the lenses that offer distinct advantages for the new mount. No bad blood, no lost customers. Once EVIL matures into the high end lines you have everything ready for action, no mandatory big investments or uncertainties.

OTOH dropping the ball the way Sony and Olympus did wouldn't sit to well.

That would mean no compromise, even if the cameras had a slower AF, the adaptor itself could contain a mirror and a very good phase detection system.
It would be a win-win.
Canon would have a new system for the future, the old one would still work, and it would porbably accept FF and APS-c

 

[macfly]

and certainly not the first clue about photography.

Flake, kindly take a moment to review my website, I just redesigned it for easier viewing. Please do share with me a link to yours, thanks.
www.macfly.com

 

[macfly]

PS: Perfect primes for a small FF camera have been very well executed in the past, as with the Leica/Minolta CLE and more recenty the lovely Contax G series cameras, both systems I've owned and used for many published stories. Today for an all puprose FF EVIL I'd take 24 - 35 - 50 and maybe an 85.

The Contax T2 was a magic camera with a razor sharp 38mm, and for years was my take everywhere camera, and I also used it for many published stories, something I'd never do with the G12. I thought me the perfect prime is 35mm, something most at Magnum with agree with I think.

 

[WarStreet]

When Nikonrumors showed long time ago the possibly 2.6 crop factor mirrorless camera, I felt that it is not going be very successful.

Since it is physically impossible to cover a large sensor with a small lens and that the size of these two have to be related with each other, the following two options should cover the majority of people :

(a) compact cameras which can be carried easily, preferable fit in pockets, without the pain of carrying and changing lenses or flash. Due to the small sensor/lens, these will be a cheaper, smaller and a complete solution, but suffer image quality for which most users won't care much for their intended use.

(b) quality achieved by bigger sensors/lenses even if this means carrying and changing big heavy expensive lenses, together with a ton of other stuff.

Something in between such as the 2.6 crop factor mirrorless, will be significantly lower in quality from a traditional dslr and won't be small enough to be considered as a compact camera together with the pain of changing and carrying lenses. You just get the disadvantages of (a) and (b).

What I reasoned is that, who wants quality, just wants that without compromise and is ready to make sacrifices for it, and who wants a compact camera will just go for a small camera rather a bigger camera with better quality with the interchangeable lens pain.

There will always be a minority which will have a particular use with such a camera, but will they be enough to turn it into a successful camera ?

Also, I don't see any advantages with cameras such as the NEX, I would prefer to have a better balanced body, if the lenses are still going to be big. On the other hand the nex will be great with the small primes, but again, such needs will be from a minority of users.