Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]

[Radiating]

Surely they wouldn't price it above the 6D?

Of course they would ...

Of course they wouldn't.

The 7DII will be cheaper than the 6D. That's for sure.

There's a reason the 6D is named '6D': to signify that it is positioned above the 7D.
The marketing message here is that a FF camera is a always a step up from a crop camera, regardless of specs.

This message is needed to assert the premium-ness of FF; without it, it's hard to charge a (hefty) premium for FF.

Canons latest strategy has been to markup all new products 30% for the first 7 months. I predict the 7d will go for $2000, msrp, and sell for a minimum advertised price of $1800 at launch. Making it cost $100 less than the 6D

 

[dlleno]

Just to provide more completeness ... the 7D sports DUAL DIGIC-4s as opposed to DUAL DIGIC-5+ processors (for sensor) and one DIGIC 4 processor dedicated exclusively for metering in the 1DX.

I think we can expect the dual DIGIC architecture of the present 7D to extend into the 7D2. What they do with it is another matter! As I read through the thread I find essentially two 7D2 camps: interestingly enough most seem to use the 6D price point as the point of interest when speculating about the 7D2 price:

Camp cripple says that the 7D2 will represent only incremental improvements to the 7D in both the AF and metering systems. It will have a new sensor but nothing else will be really spectacular about it because 5D3 and 1DX sales ,as well as the FF reputation, must be protected. The 7D2 will be priced at or lower than the 6D because no FF body should ever cost less than even the best crop body, and because cost is always inversely proportional to the integer painted on the outside. The sensor might have better DR than the present crop sensors but it won't threaten any of the FF sensors. 20Dave, J.R., x-vision, to name a few, are in this camp. Variations on this theme include the suggestion that a greater feature set would start to look like a 1D4 successor, in which case it cannot possibly be named '7'.

my observation here is that the 7D itself was disruptive and this discription of the 7D is not. while certainly believable, a 7D2 with the above features would be a enormous yawn. It does, however, fit the more traditionally perceived Canon approach and marketing strategy.

Camp wow says that Canon wants to continue leading in this segment, and that they will pull out all the stops (bonus quiz question: who can describe the origin of that expression without looking it up?) to produce essentially a 5D3-featured body with 10-ish fps in a 7D style crop body. Price likely to be in between the 6D and the 5D3 because the market will accept a full featured crop body named with a single digit. Not many will care that the flagship crop costs more than a entry level FF, and no one will be confused about the numbers painted on the side. marsu42, k-amps, xps, quasimodo, ahsanford, ray2021, LetTheRightLensin, and some random set of Japanese tourists, are in this camp.

my observation about camp wow is that such a camera does not necessarily have to be perceiced or positioned as a 1D4 successor. If Canon is really both insistant and succesful in driving the pro wildlife and sport 'togs to the 1DX (and to longer gla$$) , and if the 1DX really does represent the amalgamation of the 1D and 1Ds bodies, AND if APS-H is really dead, THEN you have more room for a 1.6x crop body with some wow, and without confusion as to its positioning. The 7D itself was very disruptive in this regard -- for the first time painting a single digit onto the side of a non-FF body.

 

[pierlux]

Rumorwise, I think we're talking about the wrong camera here. Let's evaluate the information we have. The "very reliable source " says that "There will be 3 DSLRs launched in 2013, two of them will be “entry level” and one will be “mid level”."

Then CR guy comments that "The two entry level cameras will probably be a new Rebel and a 70D... ...The midlevel camera is probably the EOS 7D Mark II"

So, the source is simply stating "2 x entry and 1 x mid", the rest being CR speculation. At least this is the way I understand it. CR guy, can you confirm?

Should this be the case, I respectfully disagree. The two entry level cameras may likely be the T3 (1100D) and T4i (650D) replacements, I wouldn't call a 70D "entry level". I understand the plastic 60D has lowered our expectations, nevertheless I would rather file the xxD line under the "mid level" class of dSLR. Consider many pros have used, and some still use, the 40D, one of the best crop dSLR ever. No, firmly no, "entry level" is not the class to place the 70D in.

Therefore, it is more likely that we'll see the T5(?) (1200D), T5i (700D) and 70D announced in 2013, no 7D mark II for the current year. Note that I would be very happy to be proved wrong by facts, since I'm really wanting the 7D2 to be available the soonest, but I doubt we'll see it delivered before 2014.

I had an interresting talk with five Japanese tourists at the winners ceremony.
They had professional Nikon and Canon cameras and told me that Nikon will release a top Crop Camera in spring this year and update their Nikon 100-400 pedant (80-400 or so).

The Canon 7D2 will be priced much higher than an D300 successor, near the 5D3 .
The Camera will be an class for its own. A small 1Dx. Fast AF and high fps. A special product for all persons that will need high speed and do not have the money for an 1Dx.
The Canon successor of the 100-400 will be at 270.000-300000 Yen.

One of them said, that in Japanese photography chatrooms many think, that Canon should buy some of the parts at thrid party companies. Today the Sony chip is much better than Canons.
And if Canon will not change their strategy, they will be soon in financial problems

Makes perfect sense to me, +1 for the Five Japanese Tourists. Canon won't repeat the aberration of placing 4 aps-c cameras in the market, 3 of which having he same sensor, separating the top one from the cheapest by only a few hundred $. That's why they were someways forced to break one of the 60D legs by dropping AFMA and magnesium alloy body. So here's what the possible roadmap may be in 2013 for EOS bodies, assuming the "very reliable source" is correct:

1. The T3 (1100D) replacement with the already overused 18MP sensor, which would be a significant improvement over the current 12 MP one. In this way, Canon would painlessly get rid of the 18 MP sensors they still have in stocks. The T3 was marketed March 2011, its predecessor was June 2008: only two formers don't make a statistic, so the next one (T5, 1200D ?) could be any date.

2. The 70D. It will be likely given back the magnesium alloy body and AFMA, plus all the bells & whistles we've been rumoring about in this thread and before. The major question is about the sensor: will Canon stick again to 18 MP, will they dare shrinking 24MP in an old tech sensor, or will they deliver the rumored new tech sensor with a MP count and a read noise adequate to compete with, or hopefully better, today's aps-c rivals? Let's hope it's the latter.

3. The T5i (700D) with the same sensor as the 70D in a Rebel body, keeping the approx 1-year life cycle typical of the Rebel line.

As concerns the 7D Mark II, my guess is that it will be a pro camera with improved AF over the 7D, an insane 12-14 fps, dual Digic (maybe we'll see the "VI" debut) and all the stuff needed to justify its price which will be close to that of the 5D III, maybe something less (but I wouldn't be much surprised if it is going to be even something more), to be marketed in 2014. Regarding the price, don't forget the 7DII is going to partially fill the gap left by the gone aps-h line.

Right now the sensor is the weak part of the chain, but even so the system beats the competition for my needs.

Totally agreed. But, over time, the weak link in the chain must be reinforced, otherwise the link fails, the chain breaks and the system goes down as a whole. I'm sure there's more than one trick up Canon's sleeve in this respect, the only question is how long will it take to translate into production what R&D is for sure already testing. I would also include the possibility for Canon to pay Sony the royalties and use their patented technology, which doesn't necessarily imply they will pay forever, but only until they can match or surpass the competitors with proprietary tech. Again, the FJT may be right...

 

[c.d.embrey]

Why can't we keep Nikon out of this?

How about talking about the Panasonic GH3 ??? A M4/3 camera that's gennerating a lot of interest from pros. It has a magnesium wethersealed body for less than $1,300.00 It has 1080/60p 50Mbps IPB and 24p 72Mbps ALL-I video (better video specs than a 5D3 ).

And unlike the Canon 7D2 and the Nikon D4 the GH3 is actually available NOW.

I just saw this. A GH3 used on safari http://www.naturalexposures.com/corkboard/testing-panasonics-newest-micro-four-thirds-camera-the-gh3/ Check-out the first photo, this looks like a great birder/nature camera

 

[bseitz234]

and that they will pull out all the stops (bonus quiz question: who can describe the origin of that expression without looking it up?)

I believe it's from pipe organs, if I'm not mistaken?

 

[dlleno]

...I'm really wanting the 7D2 to be available the soonest, but I doubt we'll see it delivered before 2014.

that would be sad indeed, and by the time 7D2 emerges, the 7D would be an ancient relic of pre-modern technololgy!

As concerns the 7D Mark II, my guess is that it will be a pro camera with improved AF over the 7D, an insane 12-14 fps, dual Digic (maybe we'll see the "VI" debut) and all the stuff needed to justify its price which will be close to that of the 5D III, maybe something less (but I wouldn't be much surprised if it is going to be even something more), to be marketed in 2014. Regarding the price, don't forget the 7DII is going to partially fill the gap left by the gone aps-h line.

fair comments, to be sure; I'll join you in hoping 7D2 comes before 2014, and I'm officially putting you into "camp wow" You're the only one so far who has suggested, along with me, that the presumed demise of APS-H and the announced amalgamation of 1D and 1Ds into the 1DX creates more "room" for a full featured crop body without confusion as to the numbers painted on the side. I also tend to suggest that those who lean towards the conservative/incremental/yawn approach for the 7D2 may not be noticing that:

1. the third camera in the rumor is refered to as "mid level". What is the mid (price) point between between a rebel and a 1DX? hmm.......its just below that of the 5D3.

2. the 7D intro was distruptive in that it assigned a single digit to a crop body. For me, there is no reason why such a wow crop body could not have a 7 painted on the side.

 

[c.d.embrey]

Rumorwise, I think we're talking about the wrong camera here ...

... The two entry level cameras may likely be the T3 (1100D) and T4i (650D) replacements, I wouldn't call a 70D "entry level".

I agree, the 70D isn't entry level.

I understand the plastic 60D has lowered our expectations, nevertheless I would rather file the xxD line under the "mid level" class of dSLR. Consider many pros have used, and some still use, the 40D, one of the best crop dSLR ever. No, firmly no, "entry level" is not the class to place the 70D in.

I'm still making $$$ with a 40D and 85mm f/1.8 I had planned to buy an EOS 60D, but then Canon released the POS 60D , so I passed. I'm hopeing that the 70D will be a worthy replacement for the 40D.

 

[dlleno]

and that they will pull out all the stops (bonus quiz question: who can describe the origin of that expression without looking it up?)

I believe it's from pipe organs, if I'm not mistaken?

yep! prizes awarded at the door thank-you very much for playing . more specifically the expression arises from the fact that "pulling out a stop" opens up a particular (and specific) set of pipes to acheive the particular goals of the performer (avoiding jargon here...). pulling out "all" the stops is equivalent to making the organ as loud as physically possible and/or all the voices/pipes/reeds/whatever contributing to the sound.

 

[pierlux]

I'm still making $$$ with a 40D and 85mm f/1.8 I had planned to buy an EOS 60D, but then Canon released the POS 60D , so I passed. I'm hopeing that the 70D will be a worthy replacement for the 40D.

I'm sure it will. But be prepared to unstitch from around as many $$$ as the current 7D...

 

[Quasimodo]

fair comments, to be sure; I'll join you in hoping 7D2 comes before 2014, and I'm officially putting you into "camp wow" You're the only one so far who has suggested, along with me, that the presumed demise of APS-H and the announced amalgamation of 1D and 1Ds into the 1DX creates more "room" for a full featured crop body without confusion as to the numbers painted on the side.
[/quote]

Uhhh... page 4 on this thread.. My words were, if not insightful, at the very least the same essence...

"With the APS-H seemingly being dead as far as rumors are concerned, there is a void for those who want excellent IQ and the range given by crop sensors. I am betting the 7D II will kick some serious ass, the price notwithstanding."

 

[dlleno]

to be sure quasimodo , insightful indeed my oversight! thanks for the catch! thats three of us thus far

 

[Quasimodo]

to be sure quasimodo so noted and thanks for the catch! thats three of us thus far

LOL!

But to be serious for a little while. I think this is a valid question. Although Canon officially did not count the 7D as a professional camera it was used by many professionals as a second camera. I have heard virtually no rumors that pulls in the direction of a 1D V, and according to the various pages I read it is sorely missed. I think we are in for a positive surprise (except for price, which I believe will be stiff). I think that it is not impossible that the new 7D II might be a cropped 1Dx, and that the traditional 7D might be replaced by upgraded Rebels...?

 

[c.d.embrey]

I'm sure it will. But be prepared to unstitch from around as many $$$ as the current 7D...

After seeing the lack-luster POS 60D. I have my doubts about Canon and the xxD line.

Prices of many cameras will keep climbing, as long as the US Dollar stays depressed. Nothing new here.

 

[ahsanford]

to be sure quasimodo so noted and thanks for the catch! thats three of us thus far

LOL!

But to be serious for a little while. I think this is a valid question. Although Canon officially did not count the 7D as a professional camera it was used by many professionals as a second camera. I have heard virtually no rumors that pulls in the direction of a 1D V, and according to the various pages I read it is sorely missed. I think we are in for a positive surprise (except for price, which I believe will be stiff). I think that it is not impossible that the new 7D II might be a cropped 1Dx, and that the traditional 7D might be replaced by upgraded Rebels...?

I'd go the other way, actually. I see 1DX as the end-all-be-all for action shooters, so I think that an even faster burst camera based off of APS-H isn't what's missing now. I'm not saying that sports shooters and birders don't miss their APS-H length, but the 1DX greatly improved so many things that perhaps the APS-H folks will quiet down some.

As far as those with the budget for the 1DX who feel it is lacking, I keep hearing of studio/landscape shooters who care less about frame rate and much more about even better IQ / DR and many, many, many more megapixels.

As far as the 7D2 being anything other than APS-C, I'm not hearing a word of it. The 7D is the standard bearer for that sensor-size. The thought of 7D2 having APS-H is simply not going to happen -- the brand is synonymous with APS-C and represents a key part of Canon's strategy:

• Tents up the APS-C market into various price points as a sort-of-pro camera.
• Serves as the premium option that gets the best APS-C sensors before being disseminated to XXD and XXXD bodies.
• Gives Canon the enthusiast market, and justifies the continued production of the more expensive EF-S lenses like the very good 10-22 and 17-55 F/2.8 IS.

Just my two bits. I'd love to see Canon get brave with the 7D2, but too many downstream pieces of their puzzle rely on it having a best-in-class APS-C sensor to hold serve in this market.

- A

 

[Marsu42]

Prices of many cameras will keep climbing, as long as the US Dollar stays depressed. Nothing new here.

Keep your head up, you could do worse - like living in Europe with the current € crisis :-\

 

[dlleno]

the organ pipes are resonating with your reasoning quasimodo -- funny: I had typed "junior 1DX" in my previous epistle but then changed it to "5D3 features in a crop body with higher fps". If we accept the premise we have both noticed, then quite a logical conclusion is that 7D2 could very well be a page turner instead of a yawn. All the necessary R&D efforts can be leveraged from other bodies -- only the sensor is apparently changing. Moreover how "7D ish" is that -- to introduce a brand new sensor with such a body? it would make logical and poetic sense, at least to me lol lol. and don't forget that "mid level" price is, well, half way between Rebel and 1DX..... hmmm..... fingers on the calculator now.... yup thats higher than the 6D.

It should be a walk in the R&D park to borrow the 5D's AF and metering systems, drop into a dual DIGIC<something> architecture of the 7D, and call it something maybe even 7D2. The unanswered question is essentially how much crippling Canon will do in order to protect other FF bodies.


it will be most interesting to see which camp, the "wow camp" or the "cripple camp" does the snoopy dance when the 7D2 is introduced.

+ 1 also to ahsanford re: positioning and justification of a flagship APS-C body and continuation of the 7D isms that made the original a success.

 

[RS2021]

My 2 cents:

It will remain APS-C just to maximize reach for teles as 7D has evolved into a semi-pro range especially for wild-life and sports folks...one reason why I think Canon will not go APS-H as this will cut down on reach for these users and also APS-H will generate less sensor units sensor area for price.

As for what sensor tech:

Option 1: Canon may use the same sensor in the 7D2 as in the anticipated full frame high MP sensor (somewhere in the ~36 to 45 MP range, adjusted to APS-C size). If true, this would likely auger a higher price for 7D2 as they can't low ball the price too much in this scenario.

Option 2: Alternatively, they may just use older sensor tech but with all the bells and whistles including superior AF system, build, wifi, gps, multiple card slots etc... or some combo of that. Using the existing sensor tech would probably help keep the price down a bit.

Given 7D branding under 6D, Canon may use the older sensor tech and use the price savings on more updated features and still debut 7D2 around the same price as intro 6D.

First option is more daring, second one is more safe as they have to keep pricing in mind.

Difficult to say which way Canon will go.

 

[dlleno]

Just my two bits. I'd love to see Canon get brave with the 7D2, but too many downstream pieces of their puzzle rely on it having a best-in-class APS-C sensor to hold serve in this market.

- A

just thinking about your comment here. yea, even if Canon could produce a 7D2 page turner, they probably wont't IF the new sensor technology isn't up to it. that may be the gating factor here -- if the 7D2 turns out to be a yawn it may be because they couldn't produce a best-in-class sensor for it.

 

[dlleno]

Option 1: Canon may use the same sensor in the 7D as in the anticipated full frame high MP sensor

the same sensor technology, I'm sure you mean. yes that would be a worthy competitor, to be sure. If such a pixel density is worthy of a high MP high dollar FF body, then the technology would turn heads as a crop. unfortuantely, the chatter re: a 2013 big MP camera has gone cold, which suggests to me that maybe the sensor isn't ready, and 7D2 will have to use something else...

Option 2: Alternatively, they may just use the 6D sensor

that would probably be a yawn, i.e. in APS-C form the 6D sensor technology would be only a small improvement over the current 18mp. But you may be right here: Maybe 7D-7D2 will be more like the 5D2-5D3 -- feature set improvments much stronger than the sensor improvements, causing many to scoff and then come back to realize how capable the camera really is.

Given 7D branding under 6D, ....

to me it is not a given that 7D branding is "under" 6D at least in price. It is today, thats true, but 7D is just a name, for pete's sake, synonomous with flagship APS-C. If they want to make 'flagship APS-C" a true "mid level" camera then it will be priced above the 6D and outrun the 6D in every way except IQ/ISO on acccount of the FF sensor.

[/quote]

 

[RS2021]

Agreed dlleno...plus you got what I meant by 6D sensor....existing 6D-like "tech" with high ISO capabilities but obviously with more pixels.