EOS-1D X & EOS 5D Mark III Replacements in 2015 [CR1]

>>Not to mention conjecture based on past product cycles, sporting events and product releases of rival companies.

Rumourologist 1st class - your certificate is in the post ;-)
You'd (perhaps not) be surprised at how many miss this...

>> I even joined this forum so I can have some fun conversations. BTW Keith no plans in opening your own forum? NL is the grandfather of all Canon & Epson rumors on the web.

I thought about it for the 'serious' side of the site (B&W, printing, photography, colour management) but the admin duties would be too onerous, not to mention I'd prefer that it would be a 'real names only' style of forum with no anonymous posts. Probably not that popular on a rumours forum ;-) As it is, I run the Digital B&W group on LinkedIn. Not as flexible as I'd like, but very easy to look after.
 
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dolina said:
Not to mention conjecture based on past product cycles (...)

Really the only guideline useable. Not that's its fail safe. But seems to be useful to gauge updates more than anything else. Here's my D-series timeline,

AUG 2005 5D

+ 37 Months

SEP 2008 5DII

+ 42 Months

MAR 2012 5DIII

So far 27 Months

+[37 Months = JUL 2015 ??] 5DIV ??
+[42 Months = DEC 2015 ??] 5DIV ??

So, still hoping for a 5DIV announcement at the end of this year. May of course come JAN to not hurt X-mas sales. Also, I do see the time line for the 5DIII as being shorter than for the 5DII as it was more an all-around upgrade/refinement while the 5DII marked a technical breakthrough. Especially if the rumor of a new sensor type come to life.
 
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Lee Jay said:
keithcooper said:
Solid rumours I'd put any money on come along very rarely. I personally discount almost anything that's more than 4 months out from an announcement.

I still can't fathom why the camera makers are so secretive, when companies like Intel and Microsoft provide roadmaps into future announcements.
Because these are two very different industries when you look at their markets;
Intel (especially)
The regular customer doesn't buy much direct from them. Have you ever bought just a CPU or SSD directly from Intel? (you might have, I don't think I'm much mistaken when I say that a very minor minority do..) Compare that with the companies that Intel sell their stuff to: HP, Dell, Apple, IBM, Lenovo, etc.etc.. they design and build solution around the "raw materials" that Intel provide. Your laptop; a small number of parts are from Intel, the integration of all the components is done by makers of motherboards, software etc. etc.
Low margins, but MASSIVE volume is their game.
Microsoft, much the same; their software enables design possibilities for HW and SW makers. (it is only recently that Microsoft moved into the HW space, for various reasons (such as providing a blueprint/best practice implementation, larger control of end product (like apple) etc. etc.
The products that Intel and Microsoft define in their road maps are coming years down the line, when the products are ready they need all their partners to have finished solutions in place to act as a market for them.

Compare these models, where the companies you mention are producers of raw materials. (abstracted to the essential IMHO) to Canon or Nikon; they integrate technology acquired either inhouse or from third parties (memory, ARM cores, materials etc.etc.) and sell an end-user ready product.
Canon and Nikon also have such large product bases where they cover almost everything; from camera bodies, lenses, flashes etc. and they provide this to the end user in a readily integrated and assembled form.
They don't necessarily need to publish a road map, for them I would believe it to be a competitive disadvantage; you have less of a chance to surprise the market and upend your competitors. And I'm sure too that from a financial point of view if you don't deliver on your road map then investors and markets will punish you.
Canon/Nikon do not need to provide a road map, like smaller vendors, they don't need to convince the market that they have a plan and are in it for the long run. They do not need to convince potential customers in order to create a market; they already have one. (And yes there are various angles that could be debated here; for instance a road map for EOS-M, IMHO that could possibly be nice, because the system might need a clear direction to get most people to come on board and make an investment apart from the body and kit lens (though that might not be desired target demographic for them..))
If Canon/Nikon published a road map for bodies, features, lenses that would be helping their competitors who could upend the road map by providing better/cheaper/more attractive features than the stated road map. So far Canon and Nikon's competitors are playing catch-up to the big two. But in order to do that they need to provide system road maps that says that we will provide you with the tools you need in the future. Were there a road map from Sony saying: "we'll introduce full-frame mirrorless cameras in tiny tiny bodies soon?" I don't think so, but once there they needed to provide assurance that there is a plan for creating a viable set of tools.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/trondstromme/
 
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Keith goes to show how much time I shamelessly spend online. ;)

Maiaibing said:
Really the only guideline useable. Not that's its fail safe. But seems to be useful to gauge updates more than anything else. Here's my D-series timeline,

AUG 2005 5D

+ 37 Months

SEP 2008 5DII

+ 42 Months

MAR 2012 5DIII

So far 27 Months

+[37 Months = JUL 2015 ??] 5DIV ??
+[42 Months = DEC 2015 ??] 5DIV ??

So, still hoping for a 5DIV announcement at the end of this year. May of course come JAN to not hurt X-mas sales. Also, I do see the time line for the 5DIII as being shorter than for the 5DII as it was more an all-around upgrade/refinement while the 5DII marked a technical breakthrough. Especially if the rumor of a new sensor type come to life.
Keep in mind that announcement dates do not translate to the first shipment received.

Like say the 5D Mark II. I do recall that was the announcement date but I know the first shipment of bodies arrived after Christmas and before New Years of that year.

Same with the 1D Mark IV where in shipment in Europe first arrived in December but in South East Asia I remember it to be in nearing the end of January. I got my copy before any Canon Ambassador/Explorer of Light/Product Endorser got theirs and I understand they were not exactly happy about it. But then again I had mine reserved since 2009. ;)

Thank you BTW for supporting my assessment that 2015 will be a dry year for 5D and 1D replacements. Other than no major sporting events of the caliber of the Olympics or World Cup there is the thing about product life cycles.

If I do recall correctly Canon/Nikon tend to release new gear half a year before the major sporting event happens. So Maia's suggestion of either a July or December announcement would work as Rio 2016 falls on August 2016.

trstromme said:
Lee Jay said:
keithcooper said:
Solid rumours I'd put any money on come along very rarely. I personally discount almost anything that's more than 4 months out from an announcement.

I still can't fathom why the camera makers are so secretive, when companies like Intel and Microsoft provide roadmaps into future announcements.
Because these are two very different industries when you look at their markets;
Intel (especially)
The regular customer doesn't buy much direct from them. Have you ever bought just a CPU or SSD directly from Intel? (you might have, I don't think I'm much mistaken when I say that a very minor minority do..) Compare that with the companies that Intel sell their stuff to: HP, Dell, Apple, IBM, Lenovo, etc.etc.. they design and build solution around the "raw materials" that Intel provide. Your laptop; a small number of parts are from Intel, the integration of all the components is done by makers of motherboards, software etc. etc.
Low margins, but MASSIVE volume is their game.
Microsoft, much the same; their software enables design possibilities for HW and SW makers. (it is only recently that Microsoft moved into the HW space, for various reasons (such as providing a blueprint/best practice implementation, larger control of end product (like apple) etc. etc.
The products that Intel and Microsoft define in their road maps are coming years down the line, when the products are ready they need all their partners to have finished solutions in place to act as a market for them.

Compare these models, where the companies you mention are producers of raw materials. (abstracted to the essential IMHO) to Canon or Nikon; they integrate technology acquired either inhouse or from third parties (memory, ARM cores, materials etc.etc.) and sell an end-user ready product.
Canon and Nikon also have such large product bases where they cover almost everything; from camera bodies, lenses, flashes etc. and they provide this to the end user in a readily integrated and assembled form.
They don't necessarily need to publish a road map, for them I would believe it to be a competitive disadvantage; you have less of a chance to surprise the market and upend your competitors. And I'm sure too that from a financial point of view if you don't deliver on your road map then investors and markets will punish you.
Canon/Nikon do not need to provide a road map, like smaller vendors, they don't need to convince the market that they have a plan and are in it for the long run. They do not need to convince potential customers in order to create a market; they already have one. (And yes there are various angles that could be debated here; for instance a road map for EOS-M, IMHO that could possibly be nice, because the system might need a clear direction to get most people to come on board and make an investment apart from the body and kit lens (though that might not be desired target demographic for them..))
If Canon/Nikon published a road map for bodies, features, lenses that would be helping their competitors who could upend the road map by providing better/cheaper/more attractive features than the stated road map. So far Canon and Nikon's competitors are playing catch-up to the big two. But in order to do that they need to provide system road maps that says that we will provide you with the tools you need in the future. Were there a road map from Sony saying: "we'll introduce full-frame mirrorless cameras in tiny tiny bodies soon?" I don't think so, but once there they needed to provide assurance that there is a plan for creating a viable set of tools.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/trondstromme/

Companies are secretive because of the Osborne effect.

Those who have access to the product timelines are photo news agencies that tend to buy in bulk and sign NDAs. These orgs and others who sign NDAs tend to be the ones who leak to Keith and Craig. ;)

Now for a bit of trivia about the 1-Series. The product line makes up but 1% of all produced EOS bodies. Canon bulk sells em to photo news agencies and the rest goes to individual working and non-working photogs.
 
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dolina said:
Thank you BTW for supporting my assessment that 2015 will be a dry year for 5D and 1D replacements. Other than no major sporting events of the caliber of the Olympics or World Cup there is the thing about product life cycles.August 2016.

I must say that I find it a little amusing that on a rumour site where you are giving your opinion of a theory with regards to the future 5D and 1D product line from Canon, that you ignore two of the world's largest sporting events.

Cricket World Cup:
http://www.icc-cricket.com/cricket-world-cup

and the Rugby World Cup:
http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/

They may not be sports that are popular in the Philippines, a country I love, but I can assure you they are right up there with FIFA World Cup and Olympics.

But we already discussed that earlier in the thread. It is always easy to theorise when you select which facts to omit, ignore or manipulate.
 
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Too lazy to argue my point further. So I will conceed that Rugby and Cricket are equal to the World Cup and Olympics. I do this because I am lazy. ;D

expatinasia said:
I must say that I find it a little amusing that on a rumour site where you are giving your opinion of a theory with regards to the future 5D and 1D product line from Canon, that you ignore two of the world's largest sporting events.

Cricket World Cup:
http://www.icc-cricket.com/cricket-world-cup

and the Rugby World Cup:
http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/

They may not be sports that are popular in the Philippines, a country I love, but I can assure you they are right up there with FIFA World Cup and Olympics.

But we already discussed that earlier in the thread. It is always easy to theorise when you select which facts to omit, ignore or manipulate.
 
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dolina said:
Too lazy to argue my point further. So I will conceed that Rugby and Cricket are equal to the World Cup and Olympics. I do this because I am lazy. ;D

The Cricket World Cup and Rugby World Cup, not just the sports in general. These are major global sporting events with viewers in the billions. Fact.

And I doubt you are lazy, it just adds nothing to your theory when you dismiss such important events out of hand.

Anyway, back to the 1D X ii and 5D iv. ;D
 
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You're right. I'm not lazy. I'm just groggy. Night!

expatinasia said:
dolina said:
Too lazy to argue my point further. So I will conceed that Rugby and Cricket are equal to the World Cup and Olympics. I do this because I am lazy. ;D

The Cricket World Cup and Rugby World Cup, not just the sports in general. These are major global sporting events with viewers in the billions. Fact.

And I doubt you are lazy, it just adds nothing to your theory when you dismiss such important events out of hand.

Anyway, back to the 1D X ii and 5D iv. ;D
 
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dolina said:
In preparation for the introduction of the 7D Mark II I already have buyers for my 7D. Based on the technlogies in the 1D X, 5D3, 6D, 70D, 700D, 100D, 1200D and even M2 it will be flagship APS-C body with all the technological trimmings one could ever wish for. It will outdo anything Nikon or Sony has in the market.

LOL. ;D
 
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AvTvM said:
dolina said:
In preparation for the introduction of the 7D Mark II I already have buyers for my 7D. Based on the technlogies in the 1D X, 5D3, 6D, 70D, 700D, 100D, 1200D and even M2 it will be flagship APS-C body with all the technological trimmings one could ever wish for. It will outdo anything Nikon or Sony has in the market.

LOL. ;D
;)
 
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AvTvM said:
dolina said:
In preparation for the introduction of the 7D Mark II I already have buyers for my 7D. Based on the technlogies in the 1D X, 5D3, 6D, 70D, 700D, 100D, 1200D and even M2 it will be flagship APS-C body with all the technological trimmings one could ever wish for. It will outdo anything Nikon or Sony has in the market.

LOL. ;D

Laugh if you like, he is most likely correct. The 7D was the pinnacle of the APS-C segment, too. You do realize we're talking about cameras, not just sensors, right? ::)
 
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trstromme said:
Lee Jay said:
keithcooper said:
Solid rumours I'd put any money on come along very rarely. I personally discount almost anything that's more than 4 months out from an announcement.

I still can't fathom why the camera makers are so secretive, when companies like Intel and Microsoft provide roadmaps into future announcements.
Because these are two very different industries when you look at their markets;
Intel (especially)
The regular customer doesn't buy much direct from them.

Okay, then why do automobile companies do something quite similar, and telegraph their model replacements or refreshes usually more than a year in advance, and their technologies many years in advance?
 
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neuroanatomist said:
AvTvM said:
dolina said:
In preparation for the introduction of the 7D Mark II I already have buyers for my 7D. Based on the technlogies in the 1D X, 5D3, 6D, 70D, 700D, 100D, 1200D and even M2 it will be flagship APS-C body with all the technological trimmings one could ever wish for. It will outdo anything Nikon or Sony has in the market.

LOL. ;D

Laugh if you like, he is most likely correct. The 7D was the pinnacle of the APS-C segment, too. You do realize we're talking about cameras, not just sensors, right? ::)
+1

By far, the most important aspect of getting a good picture (after the photographer) is the AF system. As I am fond of saying, who cares what the DR is of a blurry picture :) The 7D was king of the APS-C cameras for 5 years with it's balance of features and even now, it is arguable if the 70D is better... (I think it is)
 
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Lee Jay said:
trstromme said:
Lee Jay said:
keithcooper said:
Solid rumours I'd put any money on come along very rarely. I personally discount almost anything that's more than 4 months out from an announcement.

I still can't fathom why the camera makers are so secretive, when companies like Intel and Microsoft provide roadmaps into future announcements.
Because these are two very different industries when you look at their markets;
Intel (especially)
The regular customer doesn't buy much direct from them.

Okay, then why do automobile companies do something quite similar, and telegraph their model replacements or refreshes usually more than a year in advance, and their technologies many years in advance?
Car makers are a stagnant market with very little change from year to year.... mostly cosmetic changes. No real surprises anywhere... As a point in case, with pickup trucks the big thing this year is GM with a step in the corner of the bumper.... that's it! That's all! Kind of pathetic for innovation and change but in the car world that's big stuff..... Similarly, when Canon put a mode dial that spun all the way around on a rebel they were ridiculed, yet it is the same degree of innovation....
 
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neuroanatomist said:
AvTvM said:
dolina said:
In preparation for the introduction of the 7D Mark II I already have buyers for my 7D. Based on the technlogies in the 1D X, 5D3, 6D, 70D, 700D, 100D, 1200D and even M2 it will be flagship APS-C body with all the technological trimmings one could ever wish for. It will outdo anything Nikon or Sony has in the market.

LOL. ;D

Laugh if you like, he is most likely correct. The 7D was the pinnacle of the APS-C segment, too. You do realize we're talking about cameras, not just sensors, right? ::)

+1
I would choose it again over any other APS-C camera. Nikon D7100? Hate the button layout. Pentax K-3? Bad autofocus and too few lenses. Canon 70D? Too small buffer, although, I might jump for that one instead. The 7D was not only, it is a great camera. :D
 
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Don Haines said:
neuroanatomist said:
Laugh if you like, he is most likely correct. The 7D was the pinnacle of the APS-C segment, too. You do realize we're talking about cameras, not just sensors, right? ::)
+1

By far, the most important aspect of getting a good picture (after the photographer) is the AF system. As I am fond of saying, who cares what the DR is of a blurry picture :) The 7D was king of the APS-C cameras for 5 years with it's balance of features and even now, it is arguable if the 70D is better... (I think it is)
tayassu said:
+1
I would choose it again over any other APS-C camera. Nikon D7100? Hate the button layout. Pentax K-3? Bad autofocus and too few lenses. Canon 70D? Too small buffer, although, I might jump for that one instead. The 7D was not only, it is a great camera. :D
You have to look at these bodies from a product positioning point of view. And as far as Canon naming conventions goes single digit bodies tend to be the highest end of that product segment. The more digits in the name the lower end it is.

To limit Canon from adding innovations and new technologies in lower end products does not help them any as other companies will always try to outdo each other's user experience, features or pricing so a body whose only upgrade in the 5 years was a firmware update aint gonna have Ethernet port, USB 3, LTE, *** or WiFi overnight.

I do understand the frustration and confusion amongst some participants on this thread so I tend to not argue all my points to the bitter end. ;)

This is my interpretation per body

1-Series = Highest end double grip pro body
5-Series = Highest end single grip pro body
7-Series = Highest end APS-C pro body
6-Series = Highest end SD card pro body

Again, I think Maiabing's forecast to be very close to the actual announcement of the 5D Mark III replacement. Although I agree with her analysis I hope she is wrong. Why? Because I'd like a 5D Mark IV in my hands sooner than later.

I do hope that if CFast were to be introduced in the next 1D or 5D that they cost similarly with the fastest CF cards.
 
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Don Haines said:
Car makers are a stagnant market with very little change from year to year.... mostly cosmetic changes. No real surprises anywhere... As a point in case, with pickup trucks the big thing this year is GM with a step in the corner of the bumper.... that's it!

Or Ford's 700 pound reduction in weight going from steel to aluminum.

Or how about the Toyota Hybrid System announcements, fuel cell vehicle announcements, or other maker's (including Tesla) battery electric vehicle announcements? Those are hardly "stagnant".
 
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Lee Jay said:
Or Ford's 700 pound reduction in weight going from steel to aluminum.

Or how about the Toyota Hybrid System announcements, fuel cell vehicle announcements, or other maker's (including Tesla) battery electric vehicle announcements? Those are hardly "stagnant".
Apple is notoriously known for being secretive about future products and services. It gives them an edge and helps in their PR. ;)

Canon being secretive about new lenses and bodies allowed for the popularity of CR and NL.
 
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Lee Jay said:
Don Haines said:
Car makers are a stagnant market with very little change from year to year.... mostly cosmetic changes. No real surprises anywhere... As a point in case, with pickup trucks the big thing this year is GM with a step in the corner of the bumper.... that's it!

Or Ford's 700 pound reduction in weight going from steel to aluminum.

Or how about the Toyota Hybrid System announcements, fuel cell vehicle announcements, or other maker's (including Tesla) battery electric vehicle announcements? Those are hardly "stagnant".
I stand corrected!
 
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Don Haines said:
assassin11 said:
expatinasia said:
dolina said:
As for major sporting events the next ones are the 2016 Sumner Games in Brazil, 2018 FIFA World Cup in Russia and 2018 Winter Games in Korea.

I dont know of any major sporting event in 2015 so my bet is the new 1-Series body will be out sometime in 2016.

The Rugby World Cup is a truly massive sporting event, and will take place in 2015. It will take place in England. I can't wait, as am already looking forward to it!!! ;D

World cup of Cricket also happens early 2015. Thats three major events in 2015!
and the Constance Bay Ice Fishing tournament. That makes four!

LOL@ Constance Bay Ice Fishing tournament....times a billion! ;D
 
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