Help with 8mm video copying

Joules

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So, to be clear, the hardware actually digitizes any analog video signal directly via USB cable, so instead of the bother of using my camera with the TV I'd just feed my camcorder output via this cable to my computer hard drive? For the relatively small price, that seems to be the best bet.

Jack
That is correct. USB is a digital interface, so the device you plug your cable into handles the conversion into a digital signal.

But that still needs to be converted to a meaningful video format and captured on a drive. Which is what your PC does with either the software included in the converter device, or some third party alternative.

The device I use is a cheap one from CSL, and although it works, I suspect it may not be the best quality. Neither is the old VHS player I use, nor the footage on the tapes, so I think it's okay. But purely because they are a big name in the space of video capture (mainly for streaming console games) I would have got the Elgato one if it had been on my radar at the time of purchase.

Although apparently going with RCA composite rather than S Video as the analogue output already butchers the quality so there's probably not much to save by the time the signal reaches the converter USB device. But my VHS recorder doesn't have anything else.

With my particular converter, I can also use the free and very powerful VLC video software to display the signal coming from the USB device almost properly. But not quite, so although VLC would be a better way to capture the signal since it offers more control, I just use the bundled software. OBS would be another such software, which is perhaps more polished. The bundled software outputs standard H.264 video, though I don't recall with container it uses. Might be .mov.

The elgato also saves as H.264 according to their website. Apparently in .mp4 files. So standard format with good properties for storage, although you should not expect to be able to manipulate it much with color grading.

Regarding interlaced footage, that topic is an entire nightmare to dig through and work with. While usually we think of video as a series of images and that is indeed how it is stored in modern times, interlaced footage saves only half the rows of pixels from each frame, allowing two frames to be recorded in the (physical) space of one. Which is used to effectively double the framerate that can be recorded or transmitted.

But this means some instance in the processing chain has extract the two separate frames from each one and reconstruct the missing half of each before display. And this is pretty heavy processing if the result is supposed to look decent. So you are essentially out of luck if the signal arrives as interlaced as digital. While there are a lot of powerful, free tools available to do this processing, it is by no means convinient. Apparently it is possible to use the Elgato device to capture with VirtualDub and deinterlace through that.

But I think to go through that pain you would need to be very unhappy with the recordings you get from just pointing the camera at the TV.

Analogue Media has a charme and certainly there's this interesting culture around it that you can dig into forever on the internet. But damn, it makes me appreciate digital so much each time I read anything about it :LOL:
 
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Jack Douglas

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That is correct. USB is a digital interface, so the device you plug your cable into handles the conversion into a digital signal.

But that still needs to be converted to a meaningful video format and captured on a drive. Which is what your PC does with either the software included in the converter device, or some third party alternative.

The device I use is a cheap one from CSL, and although it works, I suspect it may not be the best quality. Neither is the old VHS player I use, nor the footage on the tapes, so I think it's okay. But purely because they are a big name in the space of video capture (mainly for streaming console games) I would have got the Elgato one if it had been on my radar at the time of purchase.

Although apparently going with RCA composite rather than S Video as the analogue output already butchers the quality so there's probably not much to save by the time the signal reaches the converter USB device. But my VHS recorder doesn't have anything else.

With my particular converter, I can also use the free and very powerful VLC video software to display the signal coming from the USB device almost properly. But not quite, so although VLC would be a better way to capture the signal since it offers more control, I just use the bundled software. OBS would be another such software, which is perhaps more polished. The bundled software outputs standard H.264 video, though I don't recall with container it uses. Might be .mov.

The elgato also saves as H.264 according to their website. Apparently in .mp4 files. So standard format with good properties for storage, although you should not expect to be able to manipulate it much with color grading.

Regarding interlaced footage, that topic is an entire nightmare to dig through and work with. While usually we think of video as a series of images and that is indeed how it is stored in modern times, interlaced footage saves only half the rows of pixels from each frame, allowing two frames to be recorded in the (physical) space of one. Which is used to effectively double the framerate that can be recorded or transmitted.

But this means some instance in the processing chain has extract the two separate frames from each one and reconstruct the missing half of each before display. And this is pretty heavy processing if the result is supposed to look decent. So you are essentially out of luck if the signal arrives as interlaced as digital. While there are a lot of powerful, free tools available to do this processing, it is by no means convinient. Apparently it is possible to use the Elgato device to capture with VirtualDub and deinterlace through that.

But I think to go through that pain you would need to be very unhappy with the recordings you get from just pointing the camera at the TV.

Analogue Media has a charme and certainly there's this interesting culture around it that you can dig into forever on the internet. But damn, it makes me appreciate digital so much each time I read anything about it :LOL:
Thanks so much for the detailed commentary. I didn't realize there was so much more to understand and it makes my head spin. It will be a few days but I'm going to play with recording the TV and then I'll comment further.

Jack
 
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Hi. I’ve done exactly the same recently with my Hi-8 cassettes and my 25 y.o Canon camcorder. I bought the Pinnacle Dazzle DVD recorder which connects simply my camera to my computer. Works very well and you can use a simple but powerful Pinnacle Studio app to edit your rushes before saving them in multiple formats. That device is worth approx $50 in the US and less if you can find a second hand one. I would much more recommend this option then filming a TV screen. Fast and simple solution
I have finally dug out my old Sony 8mm camcorder and a bunch of tapes of Peru and Machu Pichu done in 1988. They haven't been played in 30 years and seem to be decent for the time and my two youngest are in the footage as well as other family so now I'd really like to get them in digital form (without spending too much at least until I've assessed exactly what is actually worthy).

So, can it work for me to just set my R5 on a tripod in front of the 4K TV and record in HD? If so are there any things to try to do that would be helpfull? I wondered if I recorded in 1080/60 if that would improve the hand held shakiness aspect with multiple Hi-8
 
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Jack Douglas

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Hi. I’ve done exactly the same recently with my Hi-8 cassettes and my 25 y.o Canon camcorder. I bought the Pinnacle Dazzle DVD recorder which connects simply my camera to my computer. Works very well and you can use a simple but powerful Pinnacle Studio app to edit your rushes before saving them in multiple formats. That device is worth approx $50 in the US and less if you can find a second hand one. I would much more recommend this option then filming a TV screen. Fast and simple solution
Thanks, I just Googled and it's $75 CAD on Amazon, which is within my budget for sure so I'll look into that one too.

Jack
 
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Jack Douglas

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Apr 10, 2013
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Thanks, I just Googled and it's $75 CAD on Amazon, which is within my budget for sure so I'll look into that one too.

Jack
That's an outdated version - get it in 3 months. A newer version isn't available via Prime and it's $113 and has some pretty negative reviews so I don't think I'll go that route.
 
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dcm

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That's an outdated version - get it in 3 months. A newer version isn't available via Prime and it's $113 and has some pretty negative reviews so I don't think I'll go that route.
Wow, Pinnacle is still around. I tried a much earlier version of Dazzle back in 2006 and had some problems getting it to work on Windows, even on high end HP workstation PCs and laptops. I attribute that to the general state of the video hardware and software at that time. That's partly why I went the Sony direct to DVD route and finished burning DVDs in 2006. This also convinced me to move my home computing to Apple on a Mac Mini that year.

I just opened some up DVDs for yucks to verify when I recorded them. The native DVD VOB/Mpeg2 files play fine on my 2560x1440 monitor in fullscreen, but look better in their native resolution. They need conversion from VOB to other formats for editing in modern tools but there are many converters available, including free and open source. Some tools offer better upscaling than the available players so that's another consideration when you choose your recording/editing software. That would require more research which would have to wait until this semester is over.
 
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If your aim is to preserve for posterity your precious family memories that are captured on those video tapes and do it the right way, with the maximum quality possible, there is a steep learning curve to it.

I'm not sure that the cheap USB video capturing dongles are the right way to go in the long run.

I would invest a little bit more of money ($199) in something like this (you also get a pro level DaVinci Resolve editing and color correction software for free):




From my personal experience (capturing my collection of family VHS tapes) the H264 is a poor codec choice for analog video tapes.

The modern H264 codec is not very well optimised for the video noise/grain that is present in analog recordings and the captures could look awful and blotchy. With the same bitrate, even the ancient MPEG2 codec used in DVDs was way better than the H264.

I would capture the tapes in a codec that is not so lossy (or preferably lossles), do all the corrections and edits, and only then export to some standard consumer codec for sharing and viewing with your family.


You should visit this forum and maybe post the same question there:

 
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Jack Douglas

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If your aim is to preserve for posterity your precious family memories that are captured on those video tapes and do it the right way, with the maximum quality possible, there is a steep learning curve to it.

I'm not sure that the cheap USB video capturing dongles are the right way to go in the long run.

I would invest a little bit more of money ($199) in something like this (you also get a pro level DaVinci Resolve editing and color correction software for free):




From my personal experience (capturing my collection of family VHS tapes) the H264 is a poor codec choice for analog video tapes.

The modern H264 codec is not very well optimised for the video noise/grain that is present in analog recordings and the captures could look awful and blotchy. With the same bitrate, even the ancient MPEG2 codec used in DVDs was way better than the H264.

I would capture the tapes in a codec that is not so lossy (or preferably lossles), do all the corrections and edits, and only then export to some standard consumer codec for sharing and viewing with your family.


You should visit this forum and maybe post the same question there:

I am hearing more that is convincing me that I need to understand the process better in order to make a more informed choice. I tend to be pretty focused on getting the highest quality if my photo editing is any indication - I tinker a lot with photos that I prize. Some of this video would be in that category for me, wanting it to be the best possible. Of course it'll never be great but...

So, I will stall a bit and visit the suggested site so that I can understand better and then probably spend more as suggested. I'm all for spending if it's worth it. Learning is always tedious but it's the best solution. Again, thanks to all!

Jack
 
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Jack Douglas

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I like the idea of installing a card into my computer and I'm almost ready to visit my favourite computer store after linking to Intensity Pro. That's versatile and obviously better quality. It never occurred to me that this option existed.

My remaining question is, can I go directly to my own software (Vegas Pro 18) that I really need to learn. I fully expect a steep learning curve but I am wanting to do much more video now that I have the R5 and I also have quite a bit from my 1DX2 days. I'm fine once I get a grip but I tend to languish in uncertainty when I'm just getting started and that's worsening as I get older. I can't turn back the clock. :(;)

Jack
 
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Jack Douglas

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Apr 10, 2013
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Alberta, Canada
I like the idea of installing a card into my computer and I'm almost ready to visit my favourite computer store after linking to Intensity Pro. That's versatile and obviously better quality. It never occurred to me that this option existed.

My remaining question is, can I go directly to my own software (Vegas Pro 18) that I really need to learn. I fully expect a steep learning curve but I am wanting to do much more video now that I have the R5 and I also have quite a bit from my 1DX2 days. I'm fine once I get a grip but I tend to languish in uncertainty when I'm just getting started and that's worsening as I get older. I can't turn back the clock. :(;)

Jack
$346 CAD on Amazon.ca My local store doesn't have anything that isn't just HDMI. I have no doubt it is what I need but could I make more use of it than just the camcorder to justify the cost? That's my present thought.
 
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There is yet another possible (and maybe simpler) way of doing this.

Some of the later Sony Digital8 cameras were capable to play older analog video8 and Hi8 tapes.

They used DV codec and had firewire ports that enabled direct transfer of video to firewire equipped computers.

With a Digital8 camera that can play older video8 tapes and a computer that has firewire port, you can just use the camera to digitize your old tapes into DV format.


Here are the lists of Digital8 cameras that have this feature:

So, you fiddle with the camera menus a little bit in order to configure the firewire output, connect the camera to the computer, pop the tape in the camera, hit the record button in the video capture software and that's it.

The capturing procedure is similar to the one described in this video:

 
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Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,980
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Alberta, Canada
There is yet another possible (and maybe simpler) way of doing this.

Some of the later Sony Digital8 cameras were capable to play older analog video8 and Hi8 tapes.

They used DV codec and had firewire ports that enabled direct transfer of video to firewire equipped computers.

With a Digital8 camera that can play older video8 tapes and a computer that has firewire port, you can just use the camera to digitize your old tapes into DV format.


Here are the lists of Digital8 cameras that have this feature:

So, you fiddle with the camera menus a little bit in order to configure the firewire output, connect the camera to the computer, pop the tape in the camera, hit the record button in the video capture software and that's it.

The capturing procedure is similar to the one described in this video:

Interesting but I wouldn't have a firewire port and I'm not sure I could find a Digital8.

Jack
There is yet another possible (and maybe simpler) way of doing this.

Some of the later Sony Digital8 cameras were capable to play older analog video8 and Hi8 tapes.

They used DV codec and had firewire ports that enabled direct transfer of video to firewire equipped computers.

With a Digital8 camera that can play older video8 tapes and a computer that has firewire port, you can just use the camera to digitize your old tapes into DV format.


Here are the lists of Digital8 cameras that have this feature:

So, you fiddle with the camera menus a little bit in order to configure the firewire output, connect the camera to the computer, pop the tape in the camera, hit the record button in the video capture software and that's it.

The capturing procedure is similar to the one described in this video:

A card is only $17 but the camera would be a problem for me. Kijiji here usually has everything used and there is not one in Alberta.
 
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Jack Douglas

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Apr 10, 2013
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Little did I know that this topic is a challenging one that seems to have problems mentioned for virtually every product that's available. Some seem to relate more to Win 10. Due to mental fatigue I will abandon this activity for a few days. :confused: It was the Video Forum that really contributed to the fatigue. ;)

Jack
 
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Joules

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Little did I know that this topic is a challenging one that seems to have problems mentioned for virtually every product that's available. Some seem to relate more to Win 10. Due to mental fatigue I will abandon this activity for a few days. :confused: It was the Video Forum that really contributed to the fatigue. ;)

Jack
I personally had considered spending the time and money to do this stuff right, but as it is video I didn't do it. I don't display any video on online platforms, so it is only for friends and family. And they don't really care about the quality, and will only rarely if ever look at a given video twice.

As for these old tapes, they contain valuable memories no doubt and therefore maybe should be treated with more respect. But from my experience, when I showed the family the old recordings, the joy of recalling them came less from watching the videos themselves and more from discussions about the past that were sparked by the footage. The memories of the people filling in the missing pixels in the footage, so to speak.

That's not to say that it's a waste to dig through the subject and do it justice. After all, if that approach of prioritising ease of use and emotional content over technical excellence, we would soon all be taking stills exclusively with smartphones.

This area is a perfect example of the 80 20 principle. You'll get 80 % of the way to decent results with 20 % effort. Just a cheap dongle and the bundled software should give results that can be played back on a digital device and will be recognizeable for those who know roughly what and who is on display in a given scene. Enough to get them thinking and talking about the olden times.

If you want to go the rest of the way towards great results the road becomes much steeper, both in terms of financial and also time commitment. And as with all these things, each step will have diminishing returns.

That's what I meant with my closing statement about liking digital more each time I read about analogue. It all has this charm and I have great respect for those who worked with it before my time and still keep the knowledge about how to do it properly around. But man, treating every thing as a sequence of 1s and 0s sure has its upsides.
 
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Jack Douglas

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Apr 10, 2013
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I personally had considered spending the time and money to do this stuff right, but as it is video I didn't do it. I don't display any video on online platforms, so it is only for friends and family. And they don't really care about the quality, and will only rarely if ever look at a given video twice.

As for these old tapes, they contain valuable memories no doubt and therefore maybe should be treated with more respect. But from my experience, when I showed the family the old recordings, the joy of recalling them came less from watching the videos themselves and more from discussions about the past that were sparked by the footage. The memories of the people filling in the missing pixels in the footage, so to speak.

That's not to say that it's a waste to dig through the subject and do it justice. After all, if that approach of prioritising ease of use and emotional content over technical excellence, we would soon all be taking stills exclusively with smartphones.

This area is a perfect example of the 80 20 principle. You'll get 80 % of the way to decent results with 20 % effort. Just a cheap dongle and the bundled software should give results that can be played back on a digital device and will be recognizeable for those who know roughly what and who is on display in a given scene. Enough to get them thinking and talking about the olden times.

If you want to go the rest of the way towards great results the road becomes much steeper, both in terms of financial and also time commitment. And as with all these things, each step will have diminishing returns.

That's what I meant with my closing statement about liking digital more each time I read about analogue. It all has this charm and I have great respect for those who worked with it before my time and still keep the knowledge about how to do it properly around. But man, treating every thing as a sequence of 1s and 0s sure has its upsides.
80/20 is applicable in many different contexts. How I remember expecting miracles when I was comparing my the EF 70-300 to the dream 300 2.8 II lens. There were numerous obvious and subtle benefits but based on % price to % improvement it was an eye opener. As the years rolled along and I became a better photographer of course I appreciated the quality glass and just kind of forgot about the cost. I used that lens a lot - how much would I use a pricey analog - digital converter and as stated, who would care about the difference? Me!! Unfortunately that's my problem. Still you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and my camcorder footage is a sows ear. :(

Jack
 
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I personally had considered spending the time and money to do this stuff right, but as it is video I didn't do it. I don't display any video on online platforms, so it is only for friends and family. And they don't really care about the quality, and will only rarely if ever look at a given video twice.

When I digitized my Video 8 tapes recently I was also concerned about how the quality of the output of >20yr old tapes would look especially, on modern TV screens. In the end it didn't really matter that much. The kids are just happy that I had future proofed family memories and were more than happy to view the videos on their iPhones - maybe twice. Of the videos I sent of to our friends I would say they were viewed as a one off thing and provoked a bit of light hearted discussion on aging (mainly hair loss).

I guess if you have the knowledge to do an A1 job that's great, but it's also about preserving the memories.
 
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Joules

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Unfortunately that's my problem. Still you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and my camcorder footage is a sows ear. :(
I don't want to push you to either direction, just curious:

Do you know that for a fact though? I mean, with analogue, each device in the chain has an impact on quality. The device reading the tapes, the cables themselves and their type in particular, the device interpreting and potentially deinterlacing the signal, the actual screen... As the signal is analoge, each of these components has a chance to degrade the signal if it is made out of cheap materials, poorly shielded against electronic interference, poorly quality controlled, and so on. And of course all of these aspects of a device are not either good or bad, but exist on a spectrum. Meaning there is often room for improvement, even if just minute one.

Certainly the type of cable can make a huge difference.

I'm in my mid twenties, so part of one of the last generations to at least partially grow up with the struggle of analogue.

Audio cassettes that you had to flip over to hear the full content, or that occasionally got turned into tape salad by the playback device. Recording a TV show on a VHS tape only to notice afterwards that one had overwritten some other, valuable previous recordings. The internet going out if somebody had to use the phone. The wonders of Windows 95 and games like GTA 2 or Starcraft that didn't use pixel art because the developers liked the style, but because it was the state of the art tech.

In particular I recall how massively better my PlayStation 2 games looked when I switched from the regular included cable to one where the red, green and blue video channels are not transferred on a single cable like with RCA, but rather have each of them get their separate link. It made a day and night difference even on the medium sized CRT I had at the time, and even more later when I got my first 'flat' screen, which at 32" really showed a lot more detail.

I don't know if the difference is as big as that when using S Video instead. Somebody with more hands on experience would have to comment on that.

But it might be hasty to blame the footage on the tape itself for insufficient quality when displayed on a screen.
 
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