More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

[jrista]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

So this is a camera optimized for low ISO performance. Canon is talking about stronger CFA and all of that....(which, given that for color depth above 24 bits is basically indiscernible to the human eye, is a total waste of time IMO. The only potential benefit MIGHT be lower color noise, if they are more finely restricting the colors through each CFA...but color noise would also be reduced if they would reduce their darn read noise.)


But once again...utter silence about read noise and dynamic range. This is, clearly, a Low ISO part from Canon. If they had resolved their low ISO read noise issues...one would think they would be proclaiming it to the heavens. Why the silence? :\


I don't want to lose the last little bit of hope I have in Canon...

The point you make about the read noise being an overriding factor is a good one and I agree.

Given that the information provided thus far about the camera is very preliminary, and we know nothing about the technology in the sensor, much less seen any actual images from this camera, there are "glass half-empty" and "glass half-full" viewpoints:

Pessimist view: Increased color discrimination in this camera will be largely useless because Canon didn't improve the low ISO read noise. Canon did it because all they can do is implement incremental, tangential improvements in their sensor technology, and cannot compete against Sony.

Optimist view: Increased color discrimination in this camera was implemented precisely because Canon improved the low ISO read noise hence making the existing CFA performance inadequate, especially in post processing losses in color fidelity when bumping shadows by several stops.

Which one will turn out to be the case is unknowable at this time. But the answer will most definitely determine the success of this camera.

I agree, stronger CFA won't improve the perceived color quality. Not, at least, unstretched RAW images. It could improve color noise, which would affect the color quality of the shadows.



Improved color discrimination should reduce color crosstalk, which should reduce color noise. Color noise is an issue Canon cameras have had for a while, and it got worse when Canon weakened their CFA with the release of the 1D X. Strengthening the CFA may be doing nothing more than restoring it to what it was before the 1D X, I dunno. Regardless, the fact that Canon is doing anything that could reduce color noise is a good thing. I don't know if reducing color noise will improve tttmnbso*...I kind of doubt it, not if other sources of noise remain high. The primary source of Canon read noise is downstream. I don't think their per-pixel amplifiers add much noise, and their CDS units at each column are very good. I think it's the downstream amp and the ADC units that add most of the read noise.


Based on research I've found on future innovations for CMOS sensors, integration of the ADC into the sensor is a big step towards reducing read noise. Most other manufacturers have at least moved to some kind of highly parallel on-die ADC. Current research involves embedding ADC units into each pixel (well, currently, into each group of four pixels), which reduces read noise even further. I'm hoping Canon moved to an on-die ADC system (which they do have patents for). We won't be seeing any kind of per-pixel ADC any time soon, and I don't think we will until they figure out how to get CDS embedded into the pixels as well (currently CDS is per-column).


* TTTMNBSO: The term that must not be spoken of

 

[jrista]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

But once again...utter silence about read noise and dynamic range. This is, clearly, a Low ISO part from Canon. If they had resolved their low ISO read noise issues...one would think they would be proclaiming it to the heavens. Why the silence? :\

Isn't it obvious? In an announcement, you mention the strengths (i.e. more metapixies) and not the status quo (good read noise on 6d) or weaknesses (less dr vs. exmor).

I don't think the 6D has good read noise. Not trying to pick a fight...I just think that's a fact. The 6D doesn't really have much of an improvement in read noise over any other Canon camera. Nor does the 7D II. Characteristically, it's slightly "prettier" read noise, but it's still high. It's the level of RN that affects tttmnbso*, not how pretty it is.

At ISO 100, the 6D has ~27e-, vs. the 5D III's ~33e-. That's compared to the ~3-6e- common on most Exmor cameras, the <3e- on Toshiba sensors, etc.

Further, comparing the 6D/7D II to prior cameras...the primary improvement in those cameras over their predecessors was not so much read noise as it was dark current. The 5D III had a decent improvement in dark current noise over the 5D II. The 6D had a fairly huge improvement in dark current noise over the 5D III. The 7D II had an even bigger improvement in dark current noise over the 6D. The cleaner high ISO performance of the 6D and 7D II is thanks to the reductions in dark current as much, if not more so, than the minor reductions in read noise. The other improvement was banding...but that is just a characteristic change, it doesn't actually improve tttmnbso*. Canon's current sensor tech actually has lower dark current than the Toshiba sensors, and is on par, maybe even a bit lower than, Sony's sensors. Not sure yet about the NX1...but that sensor is shaping up pretty darn nicely as well.


I am not trying to be rude or inflammatory. These are just the cold hard facts, based on measurements. This isn't a perception thing or a feelings thing (not saying that perceptions are bad, just less concrete). The 5Ds line is a studio camera line. It's a low ISO performance line, at least as spoken of in the rumors (but with the "s", I'd say officially as well). I think the very high read noise of Canon's DSLRs at ISO 100 matters more to these cameras than any prior Canon camera. I can sort of understand people getting irate over tttmnbso* debates in the past. But, this has explicitly been stated as a low ISO performance camera...when would tttmnbso* matter more?

However, I still think that a high-res camera is made for settings with controlled light or situations when you can bracket anyway ... maybe they'll go for more dr on the 5d4, if they further advance on higher iso it'd be great for action photogs.

I'd argue that high res cameras are not made for one single purpose. Certainly studio photography with flash or other artificial lighting is one of those use cases. But it is also just as certainly not the only one. Without a doubt weddings is going to be a huge use case, and with all the articles from Nikon wedding photographers talking about the ability to shoot without flash (which is often a critical thing for wedding photographers, as flash can be disruptive to ceremony and whatnot), low noise in general is a bonus for a camera like this. With the explosion of landscape photography in recent years, as well as all the die-hard LF film photographers who previously refused to leave their field cameras and Velvia 50 finally moving to the D810 and A7r, I would offer that the landscape photography could even be a bigger use case for a 5Ds/s R than studio photography.

Landscapes, just as much as weddings, can definitely use more tttmnbso. I'd buy the 5Ds R if it had fourteen stops of low noise goodness...and give me all the megapickles you can.


* TTTMNBSO: The term that must not be spoken of

 

[Lee Jay]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

But, this has explicitly been stated as a low ISO performance camera...

Where? It hasn't even been announced yet!

...and with all the articles from Nikon wedding photographers talking about the ability to shoot without flash (which is often a critical thing for wedding photographers, as flash can be disruptive to ceremony and whatnot), low noise in general is a bonus for a camera like this.

Low noise, yes, but do you know how many base ISO shots I generally take at weddings? Almost none. Most are ISO 800 and up, and that's where losing a stop to stronger filtering in the CFA will be a huge loss of performance.

 

[jrista]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

But, this has explicitly been stated as a low ISO performance camera...

Where? It hasn't even been announced yet!

In the rumor itself. Also implied by the "s" in the camera model name.

...and with all the articles from Nikon wedding photographers talking about the ability to shoot without flash (which is often a critical thing for wedding photographers, as flash can be disruptive to ceremony and whatnot), low noise in general is a bonus for a camera like this.

Low noise, yes, but do you know how many base ISO shots I generally take at weddings? Almost none. Most are ISO 800 and up, and that's where losing a stop to stronger filtering in the CFA will be a huge loss of performance.

Well, I guess it's a darn good thing you already have Canon cameras that perform great at high ISO then. :

 

[neuroanatomist]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

...so that leaves read noise. If they don't do something about that, then it doesn't matter how much Canon improves color purity or how much they limit high ISO settings...they still won't stand a chance against the D810 or any of the MFD cameras using Sony's 50mp MF sensor.

Lol. The 5Ds won't stand a chance against MFD cameras...with their industry-wide annual sales of less than 10,000 units? Ummmm...sure. Or maybe you meant 'won't stand a chance' of getting a higher DxOMark Score, and about that you're correct. But so what?

 

[jrista]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

...so that leaves read noise. If they don't do something about that, then it doesn't matter how much Canon improves color purity or how much they limit high ISO settings...they still won't stand a chance against the D810 or any of the MFD cameras using Sony's 50mp MF sensor.

Lol. The 5Ds won't stand a chance against MFD cameras...with their industry-wide annual sales of less than 10,000 units? Ummmm...sure. Or maybe you meant 'won't stand a chance' of getting a higher DxOMark Score, and about that you're correct. But so what?

"Won't stand a chance " in terms of image quality. God, the amount of excessive qualification required here is unbelievable. Time to go back to my astrophotography forums where people are smart enough to get the implications without it all having to be spelled out. :

 

[neuroanatomist]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

...so that leaves read noise. If they don't do something about that, then it doesn't matter how much Canon improves color purity or how much they limit high ISO settings...they still won't stand a chance against the D810 or any of the MFD cameras using Sony's 50mp MF sensor.

Lol. The 5Ds won't stand a chance against MFD cameras...with their industry-wide annual sales of less than 10,000 units? Ummmm...sure. Or maybe you meant 'won't stand a chance' of getting a higher DxOMark Score, and about that you're correct. But so what?

"Won't stand a chance " in terms of image quality. God, the amount of excessive qualification required here is unbelievable. Time to go back to my astrophotography forums where people are smart enough to get the implications without it all having to be spelled out. :

Maybe on your astro forums they enjoy reading statements as blatantly obvious as, "Canon sensors have high read noise at low ISO,"...head over and post, "Stars are hot," why don't you? Then toss out some insults while you're at it, I'm sure all those smart folks love that.

Sheesh. :

 

[Tinky]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

Have you ever used a 1VHS? I have two here.

There is flex between the grip and body when using the tripod socket of the grip. Also the design is necessarily bigger and heavier than necessary for an all in one design, you have to have two bottom plates strong enough to take the tripod sockets and the grip needs a top plate.

It is a nice idea in theory, in practice, even the 1 series designs fall short in application as to make it 'better' would necessitate even more weight and space in materials.

I have a 3 with a bg2. I know it's not quite the one build but it is fairly solid, every eos I've had with a grip has been slightly creaky, and the BG-E7 went hari kari and tried to take the 7 with it. I barely use grips these days unless I know I'm specifically going to be shooting action in portrait orientation.

I could live without the bulk of an integrated design 95% of the time.

 

[jhpeterson]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

I, for one, am disappointed in the camera. I was still hoping for a flagship model, constructed along the lines of the 1D series. As one who works on the ocean for a significant part of the year, I need a camera that's pretty robust and able to ward off a lot of spray and salt. My experience has shown that, unless it's a 1D model, all the claims about it being weather sealed... well, they just don't hold water.

And I've never been impressed with that top dial either, going back to the days of the A2. (I broke at least two.) Nor do I wish for a model that needs a battery grip if I want to get off more than five or six hundred shots. Times being what they are, when even consumer cameras can shoot at ISOs of 25600 and beyond, it would be nice if the range went beyond 6400. And, I kind of like the way the controls on the 1Ds are layed out....

 

[xps]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

http://www.canonwatch.com/cw5-image-specs-canon-5ds-5ds-r-leaked-50mp-sensor/

They wrote:



UPDATE

I got some more tidbits about the specs (thanks). Here is the new specification list (lines in bold are the new specs):

50.6MP full-size CMOS sensor (53MP total count)
5DS R is without low-pass filter
Magnesium alloy body
Dust and water sealed
Dual processor DIGIC6
Regular sensitivity ISO 100-6400, expand to 12800
Continuous shooting 5 frames / sec.
High precision 61-point AF, 41 cross type
EOS iTR AF
150,000 pixel RGB + IR photometry sensor
Added “fine detail” to the Picture Style
1.3x and 1.6x crop shooting mode
Customizable “Quick Control Screen”
Time-lapse movie
Anti-flicker
Interval Timer
Bulb timer
No headphone terminal
No DAF
No HDMI output for video (clean out). Not to compete with 5D III other video features are same.

The source also stated that the sensor is made by Canon using a new CMOS manufacturing process. I rate the added specs as CW3. The new specs (if real) confirm that these are DSLRs not oriented to the videographers.

 

[K-amps]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

* TTTMNBSO: The term that must not be spoken of

Jon, just start calling it Voldemort... will be easier.

 

[Eldar]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

I have asked for a still photography optimised camera, since I have absolutely no interest in video. Now it seems I will be getting one. I think I was hoping for an Exmor sensor, but I guess we´ll have to wait and see if this new CMOS process from Canon is the real deal ...

Hopefully the omission of video functionality can give us a respectable price for these cameras. The 5DIV will most likely be an expensive all singing and dancing machine, but these 5Ds bodies could well be both functional and price wise real 810 bashers

 

[Eldar]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

I have asked for a still photography optimised camera, since I have absolutely no interest in video. Now it seems I will be getting one. I think I was hoping for an Exmor sensor, but I guess we´ll have to wait and see if this new CMOS process from Canon is the real deal ...

Hopefully the omission of video functionality can give us a respectable price for these cameras. The 5DIV will most likely be an expensive all singing and dancing machine, but these 5Ds bodies could well be both functional and price wise real 810 bashers

Canon aren't removing video (which is good!) rather the more advanced video features aren't being included.

Why is the inclusion of video good?

Because there are times (not many but enough) where it is useful to have video in the same camera.

As an example, if you're out doing landscape photography and come across some deer and then you get a couple of male deer competing and so on. Being out in nature, video can sometimes record a moment better than photo and advanced features (such as DPAF, etc) aren't necessary. Think of it as landscape video work

And yes, I'm with you on the sensor. We'll have to wait and see what the sensor can do.

Although, it does occur to me that a Canon sensor made using a Sony process would fit the mould as a "Canon sensor made using a new process."

Will have to wait and see and wait for some critical measurements before any judgments can be made.

I am sure the majority want a combined still/video camera and they are fortunate to have multiple options today. As I said, I am sure the new 5DIV will be an all singing and dancing machine, with 4k and the lot, giving them most of what they want. But I have not recorded a single minute of video (except with an iPhone) since my son was born, 26 years ago ... So for me, they could remove every last bit of video functionality from these cameras. Less buttons, cleaner menus etc. etc.

My shooting can be split in two. One half of my images are almost exclusively shot below ISO400 (portraits and landscape/nature) and I am printing in larger and larger formats. So for the 5Ds I am really hoping for a very high quality sensor, with improved low-ISO performance and DR, at least as the Exmor (who isn´t) etc. And if I could get a very high quality focusing screen for manual focus on top of that ... It could well be the last landscape and portrait camera I´ll buy.
The other half of my shooting (action, birds and wildlife) is in the other end of the scale, where I´ll be waiting for the 1DX replacement. If that tics in around 24MP, with improved high-ISO performance (and a few others), I´ll promise to be a good boy for a looong time

 

[Creative69]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

Thank you Canon! I do expect a forum to be filled with debate and criticism but some of the negative feedback is disappointing to say the least. The fact is the line between a consumer and pro camera is very blurred today, and if anyone that thinks that buying a specific model ie a 1d makes you a pro then canon obviously doesn't agree. A built in battery grip can be useful to many people not only "pros" even though most pros I know use the 5d series not the 1d series. Take The Apple iMac this was never previously considered a "pro" computer but now I bet more pros are using it than the Mac PRO. By the way I say this from a point of privaliged knowledge. Anyway thank you canon and bring it on, I own a 5d3 but it seems this new line up may finally kill my desire for the Nikon 810. In my opinion following the sony model of giving us choice in a range and not trying to make a one size fits all camera is spot on.