More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

[Marsu42]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

... except for shots with blown whites, because clipping keeps being clipped no matter how you downscale, denoise or crop it.

Must you insist on repeatedly bringing reality into this discussion?

Yes, because I use ML's dual_iso fro 14+ ev dr all the time and have settled for the fact that indeed ~20mp is fine for what I do ... so Canon releasing a 50mp sensor makes my head all fuzzy and I have to do a reality check

 

[PureClassA]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

... except for shots with blown whites, because clipping keeps being clipped no matter how you downscale, denoise or crop it.

Must you insist on repeatedly bringing reality into this discussion?

Yes, because I use ML's dual_iso fro 14+ ev dr all the time and have settled for the fact that indeed ~20mp is fine for what I do ... so Canon releasing a 50mp sensor makes my head all fuzzy and I have to do a reality check

Nailed it. I keep wondering when Canon will bust that feature out in native firmware rather than a Magic Lantern hack. dPAF seems ideal for it. Maybe in the 5D4

 

[JonoRees]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

A lot of great points in the thread.

Have a agree with a couple of points inbuilt GPS on a camera such as these is a bit redundant. When I need GPS the good old Sunnto Ambit2 does the business, with easy GPX exports. used this in my 2 month trip to india... perfect.

Even if they leave wifi out of the body, can they add them to a decent grip that actually works well...

I had seriously been considering moving to the sony mirrorless systems, but its great to see that canon are at least developing and releasing cameras this year.

Have upgraded to a 5dmiii when it was released and the thing I miss the most is the 1d series controls and don't think I am the only one.

 

[Lee Jay]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

Have upgraded to a 5dmiii when it was released and the thing I miss the most is the 1d series controls and don't think I am the only one.

The biggest reason I've never seriously considered a 1 series body is ergonomics.

 

[Famateur]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

... except for shots with blown whites, because clipping keeps being clipped no matter how you downscale, denoise or crop it.

Must you insist on repeatedly bringing reality into this discussion?

Yes, because I use ML's dual_iso fro 14+ ev dr all the time and have settled for the fact that indeed ~20mp is fine for what I do ... so Canon releasing a 50mp sensor makes my head all fuzzy and I have to do a reality check

Nailed it. I keep wondering when Canon will bust that feature out in native firmware rather than a Magic Lantern hack. dPAF seems ideal for it. Maybe in the 5D4

I'd love to see this, too. Good for the guys (and gals?) at Magic Lantern for pushing the capabilities of the Canon system to new levels. Might light a fire for Canon...

And thanks, Marsu, for touting ML so often. There are probably a number of members here who heard about it first from your posts...

 

[Loswr]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

Have upgraded to a 5dmiii when it was released and the thing I miss the most is the 1d series controls and don't think I am the only one.

The biggest reason I've never seriously considered a 1 series body is ergonomics.

The biggest reason I'm not personally excited about a 5-series high MP body is ergonomics.

 

[Perio]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

Have upgraded to a 5dmiii when it was released and the thing I miss the most is the 1d series controls and don't think I am the only one.

The biggest reason I've never seriously considered a 1 series body is ergonomics.

The biggest reason I'm not personally excited about a 5-series high MP body is ergonomics.

Same here. I loved 5d series with and without grip till I got 1dx via Canon loan program. OMG, it's day and night at least for me. 1dx is so much more comfortable and honestly feels lighter than 5d+grip. Even my gf was holding 1dx+200 2.0 quite easily, and she is not athletic at all.

 

[Lee Jay]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

Have upgraded to a 5dmiii when it was released and the thing I miss the most is the 1d series controls and don't think I am the only one.

The biggest reason I've never seriously considered a 1 series body is ergonomics.

The biggest reason I'm not personally excited about a 5-series high MP body is ergonomics.

Same here. I loved 5d series with and without grip till I got 1dx via Canon loan program. OMG, it's day and night at least for me. 1dx is so much more comfortable and honestly feels lighter than 5d+grip. Even my gf was holding 1dx+200 2.0 quite easily, and she is not athletic at all.

I never use a grip and will never purchase a body with a non removable grip. I have small hands and the 1 series grips are so thick that with my hand in the proper comfortable place my index finger doesn't reach the shutter release. With my index finger on the shutter release the camera is supported only by the tips of my fingers and thumb.

Only the Alphas are worse.

My 5D fits my hand perfectly.

 

[Eldar]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

Have upgraded to a 5dmiii when it was released and the thing I miss the most is the 1d series controls and don't think I am the only one.

The biggest reason I've never seriously considered a 1 series body is ergonomics.

The biggest reason I'm not personally excited about a 5-series high MP body is ergonomics.

Same here. I loved 5d series with and without grip till I got 1dx via Canon loan program. OMG, it's day and night at least for me. 1dx is so much more comfortable and honestly feels lighter than 5d+grip. Even my gf was holding 1dx+200 2.0 quite easily, and she is not athletic at all.

I never use a grip and will never purchase a body with a non removable grip. I have small hands and the 1 series grips are so thick that with my hand in the proper comfortable place my index finger doesn't reach the shutter release. With my index finger on the shutter release the camera is supported only by the tips of my fingers and thumb.

Only the Alphas are worse.

My 5D fits my hand perfectly.

Lucky me, I like both

 

[PureClassA]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

I really love the ergonomics of ALL the Canon bodies. But like anything, there is a learning curve. I read a lot of comments about weight and size and such, but to me, none of that has ever bothered me. Loved the 7D. Loved the 6D (although wish it had a bit more to it, but it's a base model, so ...OK) and I love the 5D3. I've seen a few remarks where people claim to prefer the "size" of the 6D over the 5 series...but honestly I don't get it. The difference between the two seems pretty insignificant to me. Now going from a Rebel t2i to a 7D .... ok, THAT was a wake-up call. But once you're in the pro bodies, I can't tell much difference except for the 1DX which I also love shooting. I shot a 1DX non-stop for 3.5 hours at a time, 4 times over one weekend for 4 huge dance recitals with the 70-200 IS 2 strapped to it. My upper body was whipped but shooting literally 8000 frames for that long, I would have been just as whipped with a 7D, a 5D, or a 6D. Plus...the 1DX just looks like a bad ass. I'll be first in line for a new 1DX2 this year. Weight and size be damned. Get the best camera you NEED for your type of work. If it's too heavy, I'd respectfully suggest the gym and develop good PHYSICAL technique and body posture for long shoots. Straight back, use your legs and core to stabilize your center of gravity, relax your upper body completely. I know it sounds a bit silly, but I practice and teach martial arts too, so that sort of talk is gospel for us. It translates extremely well into fast paced sports photography.

 

[Lee Jay]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

I really love the ergonomics of ALL the Canon bodies. But like anything, there is a learning curve. I read a lot of comments about weight and size and such, but to me, none of that has ever bothered me. Loved the 7D. Loved the 6D (although wish it had a bit more to it, but it's a base model, so ...OK) and I love the 5D3. I've seen a few remarks where people claim to prefer the "size" of the 6D over the 5 series...but honestly I don't get it. The difference between the two seems pretty insignificant to me. Now going from a Rebel t2i to a 7D .... ok, THAT was a wake-up call. But once you're in the pro bodies, I can't tell much difference except for the 1DX which I also love shooting. I shot a 1DX non-stop for 3.5 hours at a time, 4 times over one weekend for 4 huge dance recitals with the 70-200 IS 2 strapped to it. My upper body was whipped but shooting literally 8000 frames for that long, I would have been just as whipped with a 7D, a 5D, or a 6D. Plus...the 1DX just looks like a bad ass. I'll be first in line for a new 1DX2 this year. Weight and size be damned. Get the best camera you NEED for your type of work. If it's too heavy, I'd respectfully suggest the gym and develop good PHYSICAL technique and body posture for long shoots. Straight back, use your legs and core to stabilize your center of gravity, relax your upper body completely. I know it sounds a bit silly, but I practice and teach martial arts too, so that sort of talk is gospel for us. It translates extremely well into fast paced sports photography.

It's not too heavy, it's too big. I regularly shoot with a 20D+70-200/2.8 and 5D+24-105L, both with 580EX's attached, simultaneously for as long as 12 straight hours while also carrying 3 other lenses and accessories in a waist pouch. The problem with the 1D cameras for me is that the grip is too thick. Well, that and I can't remove the useless (for me) portrait grip. It's just in the way.

I realize this is mostly because I have little hands. But the 5D series fits perfectly.

 

[PureClassA]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX. Maybe the next model will deepen the finger molds on the grip so it wont be as bad. It is a japanese company. Not like those folks are known for having large hands ;D

 

[Lee Jay]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX. Maybe the next model will deepen the finger molds on the grip so it wont be as bad. It is a japanese company. Not like those folks are known for having large hands ;D

No, but my hands are really small.

It's strange to me that the 5D series fits many people. I'd think the fact that it fits me so perfectly would mean that it would be too small for most, the way my Rebel 550D/T2i is too small for me.

 

[PureClassA]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX. Maybe the next model will deepen the finger molds on the grip so it wont be as bad. It is a japanese company. Not like those folks are known for having large hands ;D

No, but my hands are really small.

It's strange to me that the 5D series fits many people. I'd think the fact that it fits me so perfectly would mean that it would be too small for most, the way my Rebel 550D/T2i is too small for me.

I bought the battery grips from Vello for both my 6 and my 7. Love them. I don't have big hands either, probably about average or slightly less than for a guy I suppose, but I love the feel of the DX. THAT SAID. What I would LOVE to see (and it probably won't happen) is to see a new DX with the vertical grip being removable. They would have to employ smaller batteries that fit directly into the chassis like all the other models. Todays battery technology I would think could allow for that. Maybe not. But the bottom grip for me isn't a problem of size... it can sometimes get in the way of making a shot.

When shooting dancers during classes I'm on the floor quite a bit. The 1DX grip lifts the lens and sensor too far off the floor for some of the shots. The 6D however, with the extra grip removed, sits perfectly on the floor with a lens all by itself, and I can get things like this:

So yeah, give me a 1DX2 that comes with a removable vertical grip if they can solve the battery issue. I suspect a lot of folks would really appreciate that option.

 

[PureClassA]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

Sorry, this is the one I meant to grab. Horizontal framing with body on the floor. COuldn't make this shoot with a bottom grip.

 

[Loswr]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX.

I find the accessory grips to be bulkier and less comfortable to hold than the 1-series. Balance is more important to me than weight, and the grip balances most L-series lenses better, meaning my hands don't get sore after a day of shooting. There's always flex between the body and an accessory grip, that can be an issue for tripod use (and swapping the grip off/on isn't very practical), so I far prefer the integrated design. But it's definitely a personal preference.

 

[PureClassA]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX.

I find the accessory grips to be bulkier and less comfortable to hold than the 1-series. Balance is more important to me than weight, and the grip balances most L-series lenses better, meaning my hands don't get sore after a day of shooting. There's always flex between the body and an accessory grip, that can be an issue for tripod use (and swapping the grip off/on isn't very practical), so I far prefer the integrated design. But it's definitely a personal preference.

Great valid points as well. But I wonder if a 1DX2 with a removable grip (wild dreams here), could not better integrate the joint from grip to body so that flex would not be so. But I know what you mean. I've tripod mounted bodies with separate grips attached and it certainly doesn't that same feel of stability as without or with a DX. However, it's never presented a problem. I probably shoot a lot more often with the extra grip ON my 6D and 7D than off because I like the balance better, as you do. Particularly with the Sigma 50 ART and the 70-200 IS2. But it's nice to be able to take them off to snag shots from the floor.

 

[Lee Jay]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX.

I find the accessory grips to be bulkier and less comfortable to hold than the 1-series. Balance is more important to me than weight, and the grip balances most L-series lenses better, meaning my hands don't get sore after a day of shooting. There's always flex between the body and an accessory grip, that can be an issue for tripod use (and swapping the grip off/on isn't very practical), so I far prefer the integrated design. But it's definitely a personal preference.

That's a problem with the design, not a problem with integration versus separate. The 1 series bodies should be designed like the 1V/1VHS.

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

I gotcha. Yeah the grips do get a bit bigger on the DX.

I find the accessory grips to be bulkier and less comfortable to hold than the 1-series. Balance is more important to me than weight, and the grip balances most L-series lenses better, meaning my hands don't get sore after a day of shooting. There's always flex between the body and an accessory grip, that can be an issue for tripod use (and swapping the grip off/on isn't very practical), so I far prefer the integrated design. But it's definitely a personal preference.

That's a problem with the design, not a problem with integration versus separate. The 1 series bodies should be designed like the 1V/1VHS.

Have you ever used a 1VHS? I have two here.

There is flex between the grip and body when using the tripod socket of the grip. Also the design is necessarily bigger and heavier than necessary for an all in one design, you have to have two bottom plates strong enough to take the tripod sockets and the grip needs a top plate.

It is a nice idea in theory, in practice, even the 1 series designs fall short in application as to make it 'better' would necessitate even more weight and space in materials.

 

[jrista]

Re: More About the EOS 5DS & EOS 5DS R

But once again...utter silence about read noise and dynamic range. This is, clearly, a Low ISO part from Canon. If they had resolved their low ISO read noise issues...one would think they would be proclaiming it to the heavens. Why the silence? :\

Probably because Canon hasn't officially announced anything yet Other than a small percentage of forum dwellers, if Canon bragged about reduced read noise, who would even understand what they're talking about?

That said, I too find it a bit peculiar that everyone is so seduced by the megapixel count of this machine that the whole DR issue has flown under the radar thus far. I didn't think we'd ever see that day on Canon Rumors ;D

Hell, both dilbert and psolberg responded in the other thread, and the discussion still hasn't devolved into a DR pissing match

I think the notion that what, over 90% of Canon users DON'T understand, at the very least, that more tttmnbso* is better, is a gravely mistaken notion. Canon doesn't have to use the term "read noise", all they have to do is say that they have "Significantly improved low ISO dynamic range", and EVERYONE will know what they are talking about. People don't even have to actually know what tttmnbso* is. But a significant number of the types of people who actually do buy "higher end" DSLRs, like the 5D III, D810, 1D X, D4, A7r/s, etc. are going to know at the very least that "more tttmnbso* is better", and many are also going to know what tttmnbso* actually is. These are pro-grade cameras were talking about, not your consumer-grade rebel.


I use the term read noise because that, specifically, is what's holding Canon's tttmnbso* back. Plus, I know most regular people here, because of the endless petty wars, (and hopefully because of some of my past posts on the topic of read noise specifically), know what read noise is as well. There are other things that can be done to improve tttmnbso*, but Canon is already doing them. Bigger pixels, less dark current, etc. They need to reduce their read noise, and they will immediately start realizing the benefits of it. (And I don't just mean shadow benefits...noise is additive:

SNR = S/SQRT(S + D + R^2)

Where S = signal, D = dark current, and R = read noise. Reduced SNR affects the entire signal.) But from a marketing standpoint, Canon just has to say "Improved dynamic range", and people will generally understand. Even those who don't actually know what it is, and only know that "more tttmnbso* is better".


Anyway, not here to start a war (although I'm sure there are a few who just won't be able to resist trying to start one off this post). All I'm here to say is, I think people are smarter than a certain forum group is willing to give them credit for, particularly the types that are buying big high end cameras like the 5D series.


Personally, I'm VERY glad to hear Canon has created a new line of camera that is, at least supposedly, going to focus on LOW ISO performance. That's the first somewhat exciting news I've heard from Canon in...a very long time now. (I was really hoping this announcement would involve their BSI layered sensor technology...but, sounds like not. If it had...I'd have been quite excited.) The 7D II has made a bit of news in the astro world...but testing is already starting to show that the NX1 could very well best it in that arena as well (read noise on the NX1 may be as low as 0.9e- at ISO 1600...which would mean it has the lowest read noise of any current camera on the market, even lower than Exmor... ), but the A7s is quickly shaping up to be one of the biggest light-sucking fiends we've ever seen.


Still, I am glad to hear that Canon has at least shifted some resources to focus on the low ISO end of the spectrum, after some eight years or so focusing pretty exclusively on the high ISO and action end of the spectrum. I just hope they have done the ONE SINGLE thing that will actually improve their low ISO performance: reduce read noise. They have already done everything else. The 7D has 59% Q.E....I don't expect the 5Ds cameras to come in at 41-49% again. They already have the phenomenal focus and metering system (iTR). They already have very good CDS. They already have some of the lowest dark current in the industry. They have already addressed everything else...so that leaves read noise. If they don't do something about that, then it doesn't matter how much Canon improves color purity or how much they limit high ISO settings...they still won't stand a chance against the D810 or any of the MFD cameras using Sony's 50mp MF sensor. As this is a studio camera...I'll be dumbfounded if they don't...but...faith waned a long time ago. :-\


* TTTMNBSO: The term that must not be spoken of