Off Brand: Sony Announces the Full-frame a7R III

[Famateur]

The better the competition does, the better it is for everyone...

+1 (even for all my giggling at their horrible grip)

Between the D500 breathing new life into crop and the storm of high res / fairly high FPS FF rigs coming out (D850 / A7R3 / A99 II), Canon will have to give their incremental '10-20% better specs this time' approach (aka Time to Make the Donuts) a rethink. I'm not expecting a 75 MP x 8 fps super-rig or anything, but improvements will have to come.

- A

There's nothing Canon can put into a 5DSR2 to make it competitive with the D850 or A7R3 without sabotaging at least the 5D4, the 7D2 and likely 7D3, as well as some Cinema options...just to name a few.

If price point is similar, there's no sabotage or cannibalization if someone chooses the 5DSRII over the 5DIV. They're even both 5D bodies.

Now, if Canon's aim is to get you to buy both bodies, then yes -- they've gotta have a significant core-feature differentiator.

 

[Mikehit]

Take a few minutes to read through this thread and ask yourself if specs are everything: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59526785

Did I read that right? The Sony does not AF wide open?

I like how someone picks out a single negative Sony post on DPR (likely by a Canon troll) and posts it here then people ride it.

Well played.

Fact is, the superiority of Sony's AF (and Nikon) has been displayed time and time again.

There's plenty to bash Sony on, AF isn't one of them.

Wow! Ask one simple question and you get called a troll. I hope to God you are not a teacher.

And for what it's worth, if you actually bothered to read that thread, you will see that more than one person commented that (if I read it correctly) it focuses great at f4, but less so when stopped down. That was what prompted my question.

So instead of jumping on someone's back try taking the post at face value.

 

[Mikehit]

Sales to new, first time buyers of pro DSLR maybe. They are all going Sony. But the majority of the market is already invested in a system. That's what Canon has been riding on.

Problem is, for the first time buyer pro DSLR, they will look at the Sony lens line up and think 'Why....'?
I know there is all this talk about using adapters for existing Canon/Nikon lenses you already own but surely the way to build brand loyalty is to bring people into the system lower down the scale and have them grow up with your cameras. As an example, one reason I chose Canon instead of Nikon all those years ago was the range of lenses available knowing that whatever line of photography I chose Canon had a lens for it and that still holds.

It seems to me that Sony is relying on picking up the crumbs from people already invested in a system and wanting a new headline functionality instead of creating their own environment.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Sales to new, first time buyers of pro DSLR maybe. They are all going Sony.

Any data to back up that claim, or are you merely another Internet 'expert' who pulls 'facts' from their nether orifice? I suspect the latter, because your statement has the characteristic odor of BS.

 

[Famateur]

Sales to new, first time buyers of pro DSLR maybe. They are all going Sony.

Any data to back up that claim, or are you merely another Internet 'expert' who pulls 'facts' from their nether orifice? I suspect the latter, because your statement has the characteristic odor of BS.

Two things to keep in mind:

• 84% of all statistics are inaccurate, and
• 92% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

;D

 

[ahsanford]

Sales to new, first time buyers of pro DSLR maybe. They are all going Sony.

Any data to back up that claim, or are you merely another Internet 'expert' who pulls 'facts' from their nether orifice? I suspect the latter, because your statement has the characteristic odor of BS.

And the order of operations / scope of OSOK's statement is confusing. Are we talking about...

• ...people who are buying their first ever (non mobile phone) camera and that camera happens to be an FF ILC? Those people do exist in small numbers, believe it or not, but these are surely moneyed folk. This group represents folks who buy a Ferrari before they get their driver's licenses, so to speak -- think trust fund world-traveling kids on instagram, young tech industry people buying toys, etc.. They'd be far better served with a fixed lens rig with some auto-modes, say an RX1R II. But overall, I'd have no idea what these folks would buy. If money is no object, you're talking Leica M territory, Nikon Df territory, etc. Regardless, I doubt these people represent a large slice of the market.
  
  
• ...people who are buying their first FF ILC but not their first (non mobile phone) camera? These are likely Canonites in healthy numbers as these folks are likely stepping up from crop SLRs, and one would presume they'd routinely opt for a 6D# or 5D#

So the BS may depend on how you slice OSOK's original statement. For instance, if you own an a6500, there's a very very very good chance your first FF ILC will be a Sony.

- A

 

[raptor3x]

Wow! Ask one simple question and you get called a troll. I hope to God you are not a teacher.

And for what it's worth, if you actually bothered to read that thread, you will see that more than one person commented that (if I read it correctly) it focuses great at f4, but less so when stopped down. That was what prompted my question.

So instead of jumping on someone's back try taking the post at face value.

Yeah, this is something that people have been complaining about with the A7R2 for a long time. Trying to play it off like it's only a single post by some random troll is a bit disingenuous.

 

[dolina]

https://youtu.be/Lvah3rPB22k

 

[neuroanatomist]

So the BS may depend on how you slice OSOK's original statement.

Well, for starters he seems to be suggesting first-time pro DSLR buyers are going to Sony. Perhaps he can start by listing the digital single lens reflex cameras currently produced by Sony.

 

[Dylan777]

https://youtu.be/Lvah3rPB22k

A9 is the best mirrorless cams so far for me. No doubt, a7rIII will bring extra WOW to market. Native lens selection is good enough to cover many events, especially for wedding pros. Can'r speak for a7rIII, however, the A9 Eye-AF in just SUPER.

I love my Fuji stuff, however, I'm prepare to sell some for up coming A7S III

 

[danski0224]

Doing what to yourself, may I ask? Seems like you are logically following value and sticking with Canon. Good call, IMHO.

You'll always lust for something sexier on paper, that's life. That Maserati that just drove me by can corner and accelerate better than my Audi, but my butt hurts driving it (A7 grip), the dashboard is full of buttons with icons I don't understand (A7 menu/interface), and repairs require something arriving by boat in 8 weeks (Sony customer support). Try buying groceries with it (any assignment in the field) and tell me how exhilarating it was.

I'll stick with what I can reliably drive. No alarms and no surprises. I'm highly confident I'll still get where I'm going.

- A

I rented an A7RII, and it took all of 5 minutes to hit the major menu items and set up the camera for my uses. I did have to search how to enable back button focus.

I wasn't particularly impressed with how Canon lenses worked on the Sony through a Metabones adapter, but my Sigma SA lenses worked just fine with the Sigma MC-11 adapter.

The Sony doesn't fit as nicely in the hand as my Canon, but it fits well enough.

The biggest thing that I do not like is the lack of support from Sony...

 

[Ryananthony]

I'll be selling my 5d3 and some rarely used lenses to help fund this camera. It's more or less everything I wanted in the Sony a7r series to give it a shot. I will not be selling my 1dx and favorite lenses though.

This should give a good idea how I like mirrorless and a modern EVF. My first and only mirrorless prior was a Fuji xpro1 and I could not sell it fast enough I was so unhappy.

My jaw continues to drop at the lengths people go (and the lessons they learn) to simply try something. Wow.

Dude: did you consider renting first?

- A

As I have mentioned in previous threads, the used market where I live is massive. All equipment that I have purchased used, I have no doubt ill be able to sell with out losing money on. I can't say the same for the 5d3, but thats fine as I would be selling it with in the year anyway. I was originally waiting for the A7iii, for the lower initial cost.

Im not interested in renting. I feel to get to know the product, ill need more then a weekend, or even a month which just doesn't make sense to rent since It is unlikely ill be making money with it while it is rented.

Ive only ever shot Canon, The grass may be greener. It may not. Thats why I'm not selling all my gear.

 

[Jopa]

Take a few minutes to read through this thread and ask yourself if specs are everything: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59526785

Did I read that right? The Sony does not AF wide open?

I like how someone picks out a single negative Sony post on DPR (likely by a Canon troll) and posts it here then people ride it.

Well played.

Fact is, the superiority of Sony's AF (and Nikon) has been displayed time and time again.

There's plenty to bash Sony on, AF isn't one of them.

Yeah, someone like you trolling on a Canon forum, right?

 

[bhf3737]

The biggest thing that I do not like is the lack of support from Sony...

Perhaps the company's policy is that they do not need to provide long term support because their product will probably die out after warranty expires. It is a winning policy for the company but not for the customer. My personal experience with Sony products was that I had a HandyCam and a point-and-shoot and both died a few weeks after their warranty expired. The repair cost was almost the same as buying a new one and newer ones had tons of added features that were quite tempting to buy them instead of settling with a repaired kit. It is a very small sample but speaks out itself.
My point is that this policy can potentially work for consumer level products an throwing new models with many added features in short cycles. But it will not work for the professional products. Now that the company seems to be targeting professionals, it can only gain my attention to spend my money on it iff it can prove that their cameras and lenses are built well to last (e.g. weather sealing, no over heating, etc.) and a good and efficient service and repair mechanism is already in place. Otherwise, it will be like another entertaining pretty object in a magazine.

 

[woodman411]

Take a few minutes to read through this thread and ask yourself if specs are everything: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59526785

Did I read that right? The Sony does not AF wide open?

I like how someone picks out a single negative Sony post on DPR (likely by a Canon troll) and posts it here then people ride it.

Well played.

Fact is, the superiority of Sony's AF (and Nikon) has been displayed time and time again.

There's plenty to bash Sony on, AF isn't one of them.

Sorry, who are you? I ask respectfully because you must have quite the credentials to brush off two professionals who have used both systems. Can you please show me your website and gallery? Because the OP in my thread link is a professional in NYC, Sung Park, http://www.sungparkphotography.com . The other professional on that thread is Jeff Terrington who also uses both systems, http://www.gr8photography.com

You can live by your facts, I'll trust professionals who have used both systems, and have clearly articulated specific limitations and frustations of using Sonys (notice none of their issues were mentioned by DPR, surprise surprise).

 

[woodman411]

Take a few minutes to read through this thread and ask yourself if specs are everything: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59526785

Did I read that right? The Sony does not AF wide open?

That is correct, even with Sony GM lenses. Just so that this doesn't get taken out of context, the full description of the issue would be "the Sony does not AF wide open when using higher f-stops, like f7.1. Quoting Sung Park:

The only lens I (used to) own that opens up the aperture for focusing is the zeiss distagon 35 f1.4, which unfortunately is a lens that I never use in a studio environment. The G 70-200 f4, GM 70-200 f2.8, GM 24-70 f2.8, Zeiss Planar 50 f1.4, GM 85 f1.4, Zeiss 16-35 f4 all focus stopped down so experience the issues I've described.

 

[Mancubus]

There's nothing Canon can put into a 5DSR2 to make it competitive with the D850 or A7R3 without sabotaging at least the 5D4, the 7D2 and likely 7D3, as well as some Cinema options...just to name a few.

So despite the fact that other manufacturers released cameras that obliterate the 5D4 at the same price point (slightly cheaper actually), you still defend Canon on intentionally crippling the 5DSR2.

You should send a resume and a copy of this message to Canon, you must be exactly the type of people they've been hiring lately.

 

[Talys]

Take a few minutes to read through this thread and ask yourself if specs are everything: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59526785

Did I read that right? The Sony does not AF wide open?

That is correct, even with Sony GM lenses. Just so that this doesn't get taken out of context, the full description of the issue would be "the Sony does not AF wide open when using higher f-stops, like f7.1. Quoting Sung Park:

The only lens I (used to) own that opens up the aperture for focusing is the zeiss distagon 35 f1.4, which unfortunately is a lens that I never use in a studio environment. The G 70-200 f4, GM 70-200 f2.8, GM 24-70 f2.8, Zeiss Planar 50 f1.4, GM 85 f1.4, Zeiss 16-35 f4 all focus stopped down so experience the issues I've described.

Well, I always thought, "of course not".

Put a Canon onto LiveView One Shot, and crank the aperture to f/14 in a dim room, til almost everything is barely visible. Tap somewhere on the screen or hit the AF button, and the screen will suddenly light up for a second or so while it focuses -- that's the camera going to max aperture when it needs more light to electronically AF. Then it returns to being dark.

Now put it into LiveView AI Servo. Now, when you press the AF button, it doesn't light up anymore. If you tap the screen, I think it lights up ONCE. Then, it tries (usually unsuccessfully) to track it in the dark.

On a Sony A7RII, the screen or EVF does not change brightness as you AF. I always assumed this meant that the aperture did not open up to AF. Makes sense, right? Otherwise, the screen would need to be artificially and gradually darkened while the diaphragm opened, and lightened as it closed, at exactly the same rate, and since they can't make the EVF look better than jello pudding, I always assumed that this was not possible.

I also assumed that this was by design because electronic viewfinder/live view is all you've got, and the screen is supposed to show you what you're going to shoot (not what you'd shoot at the widest aperture). So if it constantly went between light and dark (even between f/2.8 and f/4), it would drive you bonkers on the screen, and if it were a big jump, like f/1.4 to f/11, it probably give someone a seizure through the EVF if it was constantly tracking and taking pictures. Remember, it MUST darken (aperture blades close) in order to take the shot, so if it were to shoot at wide open aperture, or they'd have to black out the screen, and neither is really desirable.

So they pick the least offensive option, which is to assume that the electronic focusing is good enough to focus any time you have enough light that you can see what you're shooting on the screen. And, they bank on their electronic AF being so excellent (all that DR in the sensor!) that it can handle the job. Now, I admit, I kind of assumed that there was some menu option to give you the Canon situation where the screen toggles back and forth between light and dark, but I guess not. I also never found such a thing (or something that keeps the aperture always wide open until the moment you're recording), but I blamed it on myself, rather than the camera. Either way, both feel infinitely inferior to an optical viewfinder in that situation.

And, yes, yes, I know, anyone who actually takes photographs in poor lighting situations or with strobes or flashes or whatever, will scream a laundry list of reasons why this whole scheme of not opening up the aperture to focus sounds like a terrible idea. I'm just not sure how else you'd do it and not have it look ridiculous on the screens. Anyways, in the current scenario, even if the AF system and sensor are super duper amazing, I cannot be convinced that AF can't do a better job with more light than with less light.

 

[ahsanford]

There's nothing Canon can put into a 5DSR2 to make it competitive with the D850 or A7R3 without sabotaging at least the 5D4, the 7D2 and likely 7D3, as well as some Cinema options...just to name a few.

So despite the fact that other manufacturers released cameras that obliterate the 5D4 at the same price point (slightly cheaper actually), you still defend Canon on intentionally crippling the 5DSR2.

You should send a resume and a copy of this message to Canon, you must be exactly the type of people they've been hiring lately.

OSOK is making a fair point depending on your perspective. If you believe the premise that Canon is ultimately competing with itself in this market space, one might argue that not upsetting the apple cart with a D850-level super camera -- let's say a 5DSR2 with an on-chip ADC 50 MP x 9 fps rig -- makes sense. Such a camera would indeed give photographers no reason to buy a 5D4 other than by reducing its price, which Canon very carefully manages over the lifecycle of the product. I don't think that's likely to happen as Canon see the $3-4k nongripped FF workhorses as being split between the detail crowd and the overall crowd.

Again, the presumption that a spec sheet sells a camera simply isn't being borne out in the market. People trust Canon quality, Canon color, the EF portfolio, etc. and that seems to be winning the day. I'll be the first to tell you that they lack the horsepower of these other rigs, but the market doesn't really seem to care. And until that happens, don't expect Canon to blow up the business plans of 2-3 major midcycle product lines by putting out a supercar just 'because our spec sheets look flat'. They will do what they always do: stick to the plan.

- A

 

[Ryananthony]

There's nothing Canon can put into a 5DSR2 to make it competitive with the D850 or A7R3 without sabotaging at least the 5D4, the 7D2 and likely 7D3, as well as some Cinema options...just to name a few.

So despite the fact that other manufacturers released cameras that obliterate the 5D4 at the same price point (slightly cheaper actually), you still defend Canon on intentionally crippling the 5DSR2.

You should send a resume and a copy of this message to Canon, you must be exactly the type of people they've been hiring lately.

OSOK is making a fair point depending on your perspective. If you believe the premise that Canon is ultimately competing with itself in this market space, one might argue that not upsetting the apple cart with a D850-level super camera -- let's say a 5DSR2 with an on-chip ADC 50 MP x 9 fps rig -- makes sense. Such a camera would indeed give photographers no reason to buy a 5D4 other than by reducing its price, which Canon very carefully manages over the lifecycle of the product. I don't think that's likely to happen as Canon see the $3-4k nongripped FF workhorses as being split between the detail crowd and the overall crowd.

Again, the presumption that a spec sheet sells a camera simply isn't being borne out in the market. People trust Canon quality, Canon color, the EF portfolio, etc. and that seems to be winning the day. I'll be the first to tell you that they lack the horsepower of these other rigs, but the market doesn't really seem to care. And until that happens, don't expect Canon to blow up the business plans of 2-3 major midcycle product lines by putting out a supercar just 'because our spec sheets look flat'. They will do what they always do: stick to the plan.

- A

With that said, ive ran into some professional photographers who just buy the latest 5D series camera, which ever and when ever they need a new camera. Ive spoken to two recently that didn't even know the 6D line camera existed. When the 6Dii was mentioned, they just assumed it was rebel style crop sensor camera. They have their lenses, they know their system works and delivers what they need. What everyone else is doing is completely irrelevant.