The Canon EOS Kiss M / EOS M50 Shows Up for Certification

[bf]

Kiss also says it should not be full-frame.

it does?
Rebel Kiss were originally film based cameras - full frame.

Kiss has always been the 'low end', and I don't think we're at the stage yet where low-end full-frame cameras are likely.

I don't even recall Canon offering a DSLR on the rebel line. The most prosumer attempt for M system has been M5 so far. It's very unlikely to call anything with a full-frame sensor rebel or kiss.

Rebel / Kiss has to do with the pentamirror, ergonomics and general quality of the camera body. sensor size has squat to do with it really. Canon had 35mm cameras in the film days that were called Rebel/Kiss and certainly could again in digital.

Is it technically possible? Yes! Is it practical at 2018?
Unlike SLRs, where you had to buy and process film on your own, sensor is a part of the DSLRs. Our argument is a full-frame sensor is too expensive for the rebel line.

 

[rrcphoto]

Kiss also says it should not be full-frame.

it does?
Rebel Kiss were originally film based cameras - full frame.

Kiss has always been the 'low end', and I don't think we're at the stage yet where low-end full-frame cameras are likely.

I don't even recall Canon offering a DSLR on the rebel line. The most prosumer attempt for M system has been M5 so far. It's very unlikely to call anything with a full-frame sensor rebel or kiss.

Rebel / Kiss has to do with the pentamirror, ergonomics and general quality of the camera body. sensor size has squat to do with it really. Canon had 35mm cameras in the film days that were called Rebel/Kiss and certainly could again in digital.

Is it technically possible? Yes! Is it practical at 2018?
Unlike SLRs, where you had to buy and process film on your own, sensor is a part of the DSLRs. Our argument is a full-frame sensor is too expensive for the rebel line.

hard to say it still is when canon managed to sell the 6D for 1400 MSRP at the end of it's lifespan, meanwhile a super-rebel floats in at around 900.

it's also hard to say that a full frame sensor would cost that much more, considering it would have a higher volume, and overtime a lower price than canon's more expensive camera sensors.

the parts in a rebel, shutter, viewfinder, etc are atypically cheaper than what you'd see on the current full frame cameras.

it's most likely an EOS-M camera anyways, so this is moot.

 

[ahsanford]

hard to say it still is when canon managed to sell the 6D for 1400 MSRP at the end of it's lifespan, meanwhile a super-rebel floats in at around 900.

it's also hard to say that a full frame sensor would cost that much more, considering it would have a higher volume, and overtime a lower price than canon's more expensive camera sensors.

the parts in a rebel, shutter, viewfinder, etc are atypically cheaper than what you'd see on the current full frame cameras.

As I'm sure a knowledgeable poster like you knows, it's not just the sensor that costs more when you step up to FF. The OVF, mirror, mirror box and shutter have to do more / cover more / endure more physically over that larger real estate.

But sure, if Canon severed both of its own legs and made all of its future cameras full frame, full frame cameras would come down in cost. Canon would also bleed out from abandoning their cash cow ~$700-800 crop + kit lens business.

And then there's that whole thing about...

• ...the excess and obsolescence of the entire EF-S portfolio now that there aren't any EF-S cameras anymore
  
  
• ...the added burden of developing super cheap FF lenses for entry-level FF buyers who no longer can use EF-S 18-55s and aren't going to pony up $599 for a non-L 24-105 STM.
  
  
• ...Sony and Nikon would swoop in with crop cameras that are $200-300 cheaper than a $999 and (critically) not nearly as physically large as the FF equivalent.

So, yeah, Canon could go all in at FF, but I think they'd lose their shirt unless they wait until APS-C dries up from cell phone competition (which one thinks will be a while).

- A

 

[Adelino]

Kiss also says it should not be full-frame.

it does?
Rebel Kiss were originally film based cameras - full frame.

Kiss has always been the 'low end', and I don't think we're at the stage yet where low-end full-frame cameras are likely.

I don't even recall Canon offering a DSLR on the rebel line. The most prosumer attempt for M system has been M5 so far. It's very unlikely to call anything with a full-frame sensor rebel or kiss.

You don't recall Canon offering DSLR Rebels? There are a whole bunch still offered. I doubt the Rebel line of DSLRs will go away ver soon they sell like hotcakes!

I meant a "full-frame" DSLR rebel ...

In that case, yes you are right. The Rebel film cameras were FF, of course, but that is an entirely different era. The Kiss/Rebel line would have to be cropped sensor to make sense. Kiss/Rebel would be reassuring to soccer parents and tempting for beginners. There would be no marketing advantage to naming a FF Kiss/Rebel.

 

[AvTvM]

So, yeah, Canon could go all in at FF, but I think they'd lose their shirt unless they wait until APS-C dries up from cell phone competition (which one thinks will be a while).

nobody in their right mind would expect Canon to move to FF sensored gear ONLY. APS-C sensors will remain volume seller for a good number of years. Phone cameras will eventually catch up with APS-C IQ-wise but only when computational photography [multi-sensor-lens module cameras long the lines of Light L16] really delivers. It is not there yet and sure looks like we are still a number of generation jumps away ... 5+ years even in my generally optimistic views on tech innovation [outside of Canon].

But it is high time for Canon to finally launch a *FIRST* FF-sensored mirrorless camera and lens series. Far from an "all-in" proposition. In addition to selling mirrorslappers to n00bs and old skoolers who believe only a mirrorslapper to be "a real camera".

And just to be sure: no, EOS M50 will NOT have an FF sensor. It will be the lowest entry point into APS-C sensored EOS M line-up. Basically a further nerfed EOS M100.

 

[TAF]

I'd bet for an APS-C with EF/EF-S mount.

I'm skeptical, but I actually hope this is what comes out. If so, it almost certainly indicates that the full frame mirrorless will have an EF mount.

Agreed.

I regularly suggest a body in the style of a Hasselblad 500 for their first full frame mirrorless offering. I was visiting a local camera shop, and got to look at the C200. Bingo. They already have a body that is close enough to make modifying it fairly easy.

So it wouldn't be all that much a stretch.

I can only hope...

You mean this?! Get lost! ;D For stills it seems impractical in almost every way.
And if you want a fullframe mirrorless EF video body... then you already got C200, right?

That is precisely what I mean.

I am guessing you've never used one (indeed, perhaps never seen or held one either?), or you would know that they are quite handy; the fact that they (and a few similar offerings from other companies) still exist and are considered amongst the pinnacle of high end portrait cameras suggests that, well, the form factor has some advantages.

And I was specifically pointing to the C200 as demonstrating that Canon already has cameras in a very similar form factor, making the creation of a regular camera (not video, which simply isn't my use) in such a form factor would be much less of a development outlay than some might think.

 

[Rocky]

I'd bet for an APS-C with EF/EF-S mount.

I'm skeptical, but I actually hope this is what comes out. If so, it almost certainly indicates that the full frame mirrorless will have an EF mount.

Agreed.

I regularly suggest a body in the style of a Hasselblad 500 for their first full frame mirrorless offering. I was visiting a local camera shop, and got to look at the C200. Bingo. They already have a body that is close enough to make modifying it fairly easy.

So it wouldn't be all that much a stretch.

I can only hope...

You mean this?! Get lost! ;D For stills it seems impractical in almost every way.
And if you want a fullframe mirrorless EF video body... then you already got C200, right?

That is precisely what I mean.

I am guessing you've never used one (indeed, perhaps never seen or held one either?), or you would know that they are quite handy; the fact that they (and a few similar offerings from other companies) still exist and are considered amongst the pinnacle of high end portrait cameras suggests that, well, the form factor has some advantages.

And I was specifically pointing to the C200 as demonstrating that Canon already has cameras in a very similar form factor, making the creation of a regular camera (not video, which simply isn't my use) in such a form factor would be much less of a development outlay than some might think.

It is handy as a square format camera. Handling is as good as dslr. At waist level is at perfect position for full body portrait. At eye level it is also at perfect position for head shot. If a 3:2 format is used, then holding it sideways will be a disaster.

 

[jolyonralph]

And just to be sure: no, EOS M50 will NOT have an FF sensor. It will be the lowest entry point into APS-C sensored EOS M line-up. Basically a further nerfed EOS M100.

That's not how Canon's number works!

They move the M10 to the M100

It makes a lot of sense that this is the M5 mark 2, with the M6 eventually being replaced by the M60

Except for one thing.

The M5 is selling great and there's no big reason to upgrade it right now.


So, I suspect M5 and M6 will remain the premium APS-C M bodies, the M100 will remain the low-end, and the M50 will be somewhat inbetween.

I predicted, and continue to predict, an M100 with small built-in EVF, but to the side (a-la Sony A6000) rather than on top.

 

[slclick]

It's too late to make sense of Canon's numbering/naming scheme, it went all skewampis a few years ago and there's no going back.

 

[rrcphoto]

And just to be sure: no, EOS M50 will NOT have an FF sensor. It will be the lowest entry point into APS-C sensored EOS M line-up. Basically a further nerfed EOS M100.

That's not how Canon's number works!

They move the M10 to the M100

It makes a lot of sense that this is the M5 mark 2, with the M6 eventually being replaced by the M60

Except for one thing.

The M5 is selling great and there's no big reason to upgrade it right now.

Canon upgrades cameras that are selling well. Case and point the Rebels are on 12 to 24 month refresh cycles.

the M5 is over 14 months old, it's due for an update and correction of the multitude of things that should be better if it's in the top rung of canon's mirrorless.

 

[padam]

I think this could be the camera that will turn their market strategy upside down.

So it will have EF mount, a fully articulated 16:9 ratio screen with an EVF, built-in ND filters, full-sensor FF 4k 60p 10-bit 4:2:2 XF-AVC internal recording with proxy to dual CFExpress cards with C-Log (and DPAF of course), all in a size of a 200D body.


Ok, one thing which I predict is the absence of a headphone jack

 

[LDS]

I was visiting a local camera shop, and got to look at the C200. Bingo. They already have a body that is close enough to make modifying it fairly easy.

Just, look at how those cameras are usually rigged for shooting - not so often they are used almost "naked" with just a simple handle. Those bodies are designed for rigging - for shoulder or tripod use.

Anyway, even Hasselblad with its X1D retained the squared design when seen from the front, but made it a lot thinner.