Here are the Canon EOS R7 and Canon EOS R10

Sharlin

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[T]he R7 was not intended to be a direct replacement for the 7Dii nor a successor to the 90D but rather a body that would fit in between these two offerings.
Which is pretty much what it appears to be. It's a logical fallacy – a false dilemma – to insist (as some do) that it must be a direct successor of one of the DSLR models (and if it's not clearly a 7D2 successor then it must be a 90D successor and obviously suck :rolleyes:)

If anything, the R7 could be seen as a reunification of the original xxD line that was bifurcated when Canon released the 7D and the 60D.
 
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Czardoom

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Which is pretty much what it appears to be. It's a logical fallacy – a false dilemma – to insist (as some do) that it must be a direct successor of one of the DSLR models (and if it's not clearly a 7D2 successor then it must be a 90D successor and obviously suck :rolleyes:)

If anything, the R7 could be seen as a reunification of the original xxD line that was bifurcated when Canon released the 7D and the 60D.
Well said. I am amazed at times at the need for so many on this forum to find these distinct comparisons and to totally compartmentalize the camera offerings. As if camera companies aren't learning things and adapting to the ever-changing market. Clearly, the sales of a high-end wildlife, sports, action camera were not enough to have them release a 7D III. The release of the 90D without also releasing a 7D III proved that, did it not? So no one should be surprised that this new mirrorless camera is not the high-end 7D successor. And yet, in some ways it is - as it inherits Canon's best AF system and subject detection, for a seemingly very low price. And in other ways it is not the successor in terms of body size and weather sealing.

A few months ago, there was a very real possibility that there would never be a crop sensor camera that would be targeted to the wildlife, sports, action shooter. Now we find this new release is a very capable crop camera for that target market (in many ways more capable than many would have have thought for the price). And are people happy...of course not. All they can do is whine and complain that it isn't the EXACT camera they wanted. Well, you know, there could easily have been no crop camera from Canon. Zip. Nothing.

My guess is that those enthusiast photographers that care about the image - about getting the shot - will adapt to whatever they think is missing in the R7 and absolutely love the positives regarding the AF system. Those that care more about the gear will continue to complain.
 
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Otara

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I think the naming alone means Canon cant entirely escape these comparisons, it wasnt a coincidence that it was released as an R7 vs an R24b, and the R10 as the supposed 0D line replacement - they haven't been reunited, they've been replicated, but with some change in focus as it becomes mirrorless in a shrinking market.

But they obviously think it will get them more buyers as a halo effect than it loses from aggrieved forum members.

So for those who think it does miss fundamental aspects, its not entirely unwarranted to discuss if the emperor is missing some clothes. I did find the 80D AF irritating after the 7D2 for instance, even though in theory there were some improvements, and I dont want to repeat that experience where marketting and reality had some differences with the R3 AF claims being made.

Be nice if people were a bit less pedantic or emotive about it but it could be worse and be anime or Dr Who.
 
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Sharlin

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and the R10 as the supposed 0D line replacement
Supposed, maybe, but it's pretty clear that the R10 is not a xxD successor but a step below. A spiritual 77D successor I would say, even though Canon's new tech mean the AF and burst speed are totally unprecedented at that level. Taking the names too literally only serves to confuse.
 

EOS 4 Life

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Supposed, maybe, but it's pretty clear that the R10 is not a xxD successor but a step below. A spiritual 77D successor I would say, even though Canon's new tech mean the AF and burst speed are totally unprecedented at that level. Taking the names too literally only serves to confuse.
Rudy Winston made it seem to me that the names coincide with the markets they are after.
It is still a shame to me that the R10 is not weather sealed but I foresee people using it with mostly lenses that are not weather sealed anyway like the RF 100-400, RF 600 f/11, and the RF 800 f/11.
 
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Czardoom

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Supposed, maybe, but it's pretty clear that the R10 is not a xxD successor but a step below. A spiritual 77D successor I would say, even though Canon's new tech mean the AF and burst speed are totally unprecedented at that level. Taking the names too literally only serves to confuse.
People are just too hung up on the word successor. I think Canon has made it clear that the R7 is the mirrorless camera that occupies the same place in the canon lineup as the 7D series did in the DSLR lineup. It is the higher end crop camera. Not as high as many 7D users would like, clearly, but this is the position it occupies whether you like it or not. The R10 occupies the position in the mirrorless lineup that the 90D does in DSLR. A mid-level crop camera. Anyone looking at the price can tell it is not a Rebel replacement, and yet people continue to stupidly make that claim. Of course, the market can change - and may continue to do so at a more rapid rate than camera companies want, but that's the lineup for now. Will their be a "Rebel" crop RF mount camera. Only time will tell, although I think it will inevitably happen. Will there be a higher crop camera than the R7? Seems quite unlikely as Canon is categorizing this as their high-end crop camera.

I'm sure the executives at Canon are shaking their heads. I'm sure many thought that giving essentially the same numbering scheme to the new mirrorless lineup would make it much easier for Canon users to transition and know where the new cameras fit into the lineup. I'm sure they thought that consumers would be smart enough that these are all new cameras and mirrorless represents an opportunity to tweak and modify what sort of spec list would go into each level and what price point was appropriate. Boy were they wrong!

So far, it seems pretty straightforward:

1= highest priced flagship (yet to be seen)
3=next in price
5=next in price
6=next in price
7=next in price
8=?
9=?
10= lowest priced (so far)

Now, we believe there will be an R and RP replacement, will they become the R8 and R9? I have no idea. Will their price necessarily fall between the R7 and R10. I would say no, not necessarily. But I think the general pattern is pretty clear.
 
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Otara

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I think thats a fairly generous take on marketting strategies.

But when smart and stupid start to appear theres not much point in continuing.
 

Michael Clark

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Adorama hosted an R7/R10 discussion with Canon's Rudy Winston. Listening to Rudy's commentary, it was interesting to note that he said that the R7 was not intended to be a direct replacement for the 7Dii nor a successor to the 90D but rather a body that would fit in between these two offerings. In the same interview, he mentioned he doubted there would be any available battery grip for the new R7. Here's a link to the discussion with Rudy. https://www.adorama.com/car7.html. You may have to scroll down to the video link, once on Adorama's site.

"... a body that would fit in between these two offerings."

That's pretty much what I've been predicting for months. Just because it isn't a 7D Mark II on every level does not mean it is nothing more than a 90D or M6 Mark II on any level.

"... he mentioned he doubted there would be any available battery grip for the new R7."

That's quite a departure from Chuck Westfall's standard, "I am not at liberty to comment on any future products that Canon may or may not bring to the market place." Rudy has parroted Chuck at that point on more than one occasion in the past. For him to say this it seems to me to be fairly clear he is thinking, ["Not a snowball's chance in..."]
 
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neuroanatomist

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“…a body that would fit in between these two offerings."
That's pretty much what I've been predicting for months. Just because it isn't a 7D Mark II on every level does not mean it is nothing more than a 90D or M6 Mark II on any level.
Was anyone predicting the successor to the 90D or 7DII would be nothing more than the 90D?

Although not necessary for a successor as defined, in the world of consumer products a successor has improvements relative to its predecessor. The 90D improved on the 80D. The 7DII improved on the 7D. I’m not aware of any meaningful ways in which the 90D was a step down from the 80D, or the 7DII from the 7D.

If the R7 sits between the 90D and the 7DII, then it is the successor to the 90D, but not the successor to the 7DII.
 
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Michael Clark

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Was anyone predicting the successor to the 90D or 7DII would be nothing more than the 90D?

Although not necessary for a successor as defined, in the world of consumer products a successor has improvements relative to its predecessor. The 90D improved on the 80D. The 7DII improved on the 7D. I’m not aware of any meaningful ways in which the 90D was a step down from the 80D, or the 7DII from the 7D.

If the R7 sits between the 90D and the 7DII, then it is the successor to the 90D, but not the successor to the 7DII.

So by your definition the 60D was not the successor to the 50D?

Got it.
 
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Michael Clark

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It seems Canon didn't see it that way:
"Professional photographers and advanced amateurs have been demanding higher performance and more diverse functions in their cameras, and Canon has answered – with the new EOS 7D."

Released when the 50D was the highest level of APS-C: Canon's new EOS 50D bridges the gap between the novice and the seasoned pro with a perfect combination of high-speed and quality.

The 7D closed that gap further for Canon, giving a body that feel in between the 50D and the 5D II.

Many complained when the 60D released that it was dumbed down from what you could do with the 50D. It was, most likely they didn't want it competing with the 7D.

The 7D line was not a specialty camera or a specific tool. Photographers that believe in the crop "reach fairy" bought in to the idea that it was a specialty animal to give more reach.

I bought in to this line and bought a 7D, after a few months I realized the illusion and bought a 1D IV. The "reach fairy" is a myth created to sell more crop bodies.

If I would have had one thing to change in the progression I bought digital cameras I would have never owned an APS-C body. Those 4 bodies would have paid for an R3. I put the R7 on preorder on its release the other morning, I came to my senses a few hours later and canceled.

You're quoting the sales pitch, not the possible conversations from the board room that centered on what market sector each model was aimed at. All one needs to do is look at the mode dial to see the real difference in design philosophy between the two. Even though you claim the 7D Mark II could do everything the 70D and 80D could, the latter two had all kinds of Scene modes that were not available on the 7D Mark II.

The powers that be at Canon decided to split the x0D line into a more general purpose camera with more attractive pricing (the 60D) and a more robust and speed oriented line in the 7D.

I don't know where you get "the reach fairy" from anything I've said above. The advantage of the 7D concept for certain types of sports, action, and wildlife shooting was the pixel density, not the sensor size. But the smaller sensor size allowed more speed with that higher pixel density by reducing the needed data throughput at a time when data throughput seemed to drive the cost of many cameras from not only Canon but everyone else at the time.

When the 7D was introduced in 2009 Canon was still three years away from unifying the "speed" 1D line with the "resolution" 1Ds line in 2012 with the release of the 1D X.

I don't blame you at all for being disappointed with the original 7D. A lot of us were. Even though it was only 15 MP and had only 9 AF points, I got better pictures from the 50D than from the original 7D. The shot-to-shot inconsistency of the AF system was its Achilles' heel. The 18MP sensor was noisy. But it did show potential in spite of its flaws. And in spite of its flaws, it did allow one to shoot night and indoor sports under relatively dim light with a 70-200/2.8 instead of with a 300/2.8 plus another wider lens (like the aforementioned 70-200 on another body). Not only was a 7D + 70-200/2.8 cheaper than a 1D + 300/2.8 and another body with a shorter zoom, it was also a lot lighter.

The 7D Mark II was everything the 7D should have been. AF was much more accurate and consistent from shot-to-shot in Servo tracking mode. IQ was much better than the 7D. It was built like a tank and has taken punishment I'd have never though it could. For November 2014 it was a lot of camera for less than $1,800. By June of 2015 I picked mine up from B&H for only $1,499 with an extra third party Watson LP-E6N and a small/medium camera bag thrown in.
 
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Michael Clark

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So by your definition the R7 is the successor to the 7DII?

Got it.

No, I've never said that.

What I said the day of the official announcement is what Rudy Winston said in an interview later released by Adorama:

It's somewhere between a 90D and a 7D Mark II.

You're the one categorically insisting that it's a 90D successor and can't possibly be anything more than a 90D successor.
 
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Michael Clark

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They're showing the same MSRP and Canon Store prices now but they were different when I posted that the other day.

View attachment 203987

Whatever the snafu, it was apparently at Canon USA, not at B&H, which does not surprise me at all.

Canon seems to have zero concern about what kind of company their web site(s) project them to be, at least in the U.S. I can't even use Chrome (my preferred browser for most things) to shop in their store or log into my CPS account and see what is on my equipment list. I have to use MS Edge. What is on my CPS equipment list is rarely synchronized with what is on my "Registered Products" list at the general Canon USA site. When I send something in for service to Norfolk, I can't check order status using Chrome, it has to be Edge. Sometimes it doesn't even work then.
 

unfocused

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So by your definition the R7 is the successor to the 7DII?

Got it.
A successor is simply something that follows its predecessor, there is no rule that a successor has to have every feature of its predecessor. The features of the R7 fall somewhere between the 7D II and the 90D, but more in line with the 7D. It seems to be a successor to both cameras, just as the 1Dx was the successor to two cameras.
 
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AlanF

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A successor is simply something that follows its predecessor, there is no rule that a successor has to have every feature of its predecessor. The features of the R7 fall somewhere between the 7D II and the 90D, but more in line with the 7D. It seems to be a successor to both cameras, just as the 1Dx was the successor to two cameras.
Let’s hope it is simply a success!
 
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JustUs7

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A successor is simply something that follows its predecessor, there is no rule that a successor has to have every feature of its predecessor. The features of the R7 fall somewhere between the 7D II and the 90D, but more in line with the 7D. It seems to be a successor to both cameras, just as the 1Dx was the successor to two cameras.
And in many ways, it goes way beyond both of them.
 
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