Here are the Canon EOS R7 and Canon EOS R10

[Michael Clark]

They are quite in different leagues to my sense.

I'd say save even (much) more and take R5. You will have decent reach (nearly 20Mp APS-C with good pixels) and at least, everything R6 can do as well.

As said JustUs7 though, + some complements :
- if reach, and light weight/smaller body+APS-C kit lenses is the priority, take R7 (18-150 looks like a great walk around kit zoom and there's a risk you won't have as full usage of it with R6 as with R7)
- if FF is the priority (beauty of colours, more bokeh, more light, higher ISOs etc..), then take the R6

This 32Mp sensor is very good and will give you decent colours, DR and precision all the way for landscape to my sense.
I attached a basic panoramic view made with M6 mark II and 11-22 (let's hope they'll do a similar lens for R).

I'd say you probably can't go wrong with the specs of R7 if image quality is the question anyway, then, but I still think the priority may be to do serious handling test to ensure you'll be at ease with the shape of this camera.
...

On the other hand, both an R6 and an R7 can be had for about the same price as a single R5.

The R7 looks to be a much better camera for sports/action where reach is an issue than the R6. By the time you crop the R5 to R7 size (because your lens is reach limited), you'd probably get slightly better image quality with the R5 but slightly better AF performance with the R7 (if it's true that it matches the R3 in Servo AF performance). For me, I'd rather have a slightly noisier image that's in focus than a slightly cleaner image that is slightly out of focus. YMMV.

The R6 will be a much better camera than the R7 for landscapes and flowers. It's also about as good as the R5 for those use cases unless you plan on printing/displaying very large.

You do get the best of both with the R5, but it's only one body so you'd be limited to a single lens at any given moment with no backup if you have an issue with your one camera.

Sometimes two bodies come in very handy for sports and action, especially if one is APS-C and the other is FF. Throw a telephoto on the APS-C body and a wide angle on the FF body and you can cover a lot of ground with only two lenses. Start the play with your "reach" body/lens combo and if the play comes straight towards you on the sideline swap to the "wide" body/lens combo to finish out the play. With a two camera harness it's very fast to go from using one body to the other without missing shots changing lenses.




(The image numbers are reversed because the clocks on both cameras were not perfectly synchronized and the latter shot has a slightly earlier timestamp and was automatically sorted ahead of the earlier shot before the files from all cameras were renumbered in sequence.)

Or to catch the play with the "long" setup and then get an immediate sideline reaction with the "wide" combo.

 

[Michael Clark]

At its release the 7D II did everything the other current crop bodies did and more (the 70D). I wouldn't have called either specialized in comparison to other crop bodies. The 7D and 7D II just had a higher price point and more features. Both of the bodies you reference were released years after the 7D II so they should have had improvements.

Canon milked the 7D II for all they could. It was announced in September of 2014 and there was never another 7D update.

It isn't like the separation you have now and had with full frame. You either had high mp slow cameras or the fast 1D series.

The 7D Mark II was released (shipped) in November, 2014.

The 80D was released (shipped) in the Spring of 2016 barely 16 months later.

16 months is not "years", especially when the 70D was only sold alongside the 7DII for 16 months and the 80D was sold alongside the 7DII for almost 4 years (≈42 months). Even if the 7DII had only had a 4-year life cycle, it would have been sold alongside the 80D for longer (32 months) than it was sold alongside the 70D (16 months), which was right at half of its marketing life cycle when the 7D Mark II was introduced about 15 months after the 70D introduction in mid-2013.

The "separation" between high MP slow cameras and lower MP crop bodies ended in the Spring of 2012 with the release of the 18 MP EOS 1D X at a time when the highest resolution body in the Canon inventory was 22.3MP (5D Mark III also released the same quarter). That's what Chuck Westfall included in his spiel every time he was interviewed about the upcoming release of the 1D X to replace both the 1Ds Mark III and the 1D Mark IV.

2012 was before 2014 unless you're Dr. Who, Bill & Ted, or "Doc" & Marty.

 

[unfocused]

Canon never really made any EF-S lenses specifically for the 7-series, either. Most of the 7D/7DII owners I know used EF telephoto lenses with them. When we wanted to shoot wider angles of view, we used our 5-series bodies...

That's not quite correct. While the 15-85mm was not made specifically for the 7D, they were announced in tandem and at the time it was generally considered by reviewers that the 15-85 mm was meant to be paired with the 7D.

 

[Michael Clark]

That's not quite correct. While the 15-85mm was not made specifically for the 7D, they were announced in tandem and at the time it was generally considered by reviewers that the 15-85 mm was meant to be paired with the 7D.

I'm sure you're correct. I thought I recalled the earliest 7D kits having the EF 28-135mm, but I guess that was the 50D. The wider range zoom lens offered with the 7D was the EF-S 18-135mm? Canon had to do something at that point about the EF-S 17-85mm, which had only been out for 5 years, but was bad to break the ribbon cable between the rear pc board and the internal pc board that controlled the AF motor and aperture with fairly pedestrian usage.

P.S. The EF 100mm f/2.8 L Macro was also introduced at the same time as the 7D...

 

[Michael Clark]

I wouldn't attribute this to any nefarious intent. Oftentimes, dealers have little more notice than the rest of us mere mortals when new products are announced. They might have put it into their system with incorrect or miscommunicated information.

From what I understand, official Canon dealers (at least in the USA) aren't allowed to deviate from the "official" prices. So they'll likely correct it at some point, and anybody who preorders one at $499 should only be charged $479 when it actually ships.

Now it's showing $499 at Canon USA as well.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

I can’t decide if I should go for R7 or save a bit more for R6. Can the hive mind tell me what to do?

Reach & action are a priority. But so are sunrises with flowers.

It sounds like the R7 would give you all of that and the R6 would give you everything except reach

 

[unfocused]

P.S. The EF 100mm f/2.8 L Macro was also introduced at the same time as the 7D...

That’s right. I forgot about that lens. As far as I know the 15-85 was never offered as a kit with the 7D although many people expected that it would be. I think the lens was too costly to be kitted with the 7D so Canon just sold it separately, even though they marketed it as a companion to the 7D.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Overall, I'd agree with you that most Canon shooters only have one body, or at least only one that they use with maybe the older model it replaced buried in a closet somewhere. But I don't think most 7D Mark II owners fell/fall into that same category.

The 7D and especially the 7D Mark II were more specialized tools than most Canon bodies. They were optimized for sports and action, sometimes at the expense of other tasks. The x0D series were better general purpose cameras than the 7D series. At ISO 100-400 both the 80D and 90D outperformed the 7DII in terms of DR and Color Sensitivity. The Rebels, which are all that the vast majority of Canon shooters ever own(ed), are jacks of all trades as well. So are the 5-series and 6-series.

I think your perspective is colored* too much by your own experience. When the 7D came out, there was a large price difference between it as the top APS-C body and the 5DII as the bottom FF body. The 7DII w/ a kit lens was substantially cheaper than the 6DII with lens, and the 7D/II were a much cheaper upgrade from xxxD or lower bodies because no additional lens(es) would be needed.

I suspect there were many for whom the 7D/7DII was their only camera.

*colored, you mention that xxD bodies had better low ISO DR and Color Sensitivity. That’s a forum dweller perspective. I doubt most Canon owners, including FF and even 1-series owners, know about or care about measured Color Sensitivity or are even aware of DxOMark.

 

[Michael Clark]

I think your perspective is colored* too much by your own experience. When the 7D came out, there was a large price difference between it as the top APS-C body and the 5DII as the bottom FF body. The 7DII w/ a kit lens was substantially cheaper than the 6DII with lens, and the 7D/II were a much cheaper upgrade from xxxD or lower bodies because no additional lens(es) would be needed.

I suspect there were many for whom the 7D/7DII was their only camera.

*colored, you mention that xxD bodies had better low ISO DR and Color Sensitivity. That’s a forum dweller perspective. I doubt most Canon owners, including FF and even 1-series owners, know about or care about measured Color Sensitivity or are even aware of DxOMark.

I'm sure most every 70/80/90D owner that fits the profile you describe were glad those cameras had the customized automatic Scene Modes (beach, flowers, snow, night portrait, etc.) and might have chosen them over the 7-Series because the 7-Series bodies did not. They probably didn't mind only having one "C" mode on the dial, since they probably had no idea what the "C" stood for. 7D owners probably did prefer the three positions on the dial (C1, C2, and C3) and didn't mind giving up all of those various 'Auto' modes clogging the mode dial.

You can criticize my experience all you want, but unless you present factual, documented evidence to the contrary about who bought what camera models with or without kit lenses and why, and how many other bodies those buyers owned, you're just stabbing in the dark at the same time you're criticizing me for introducing anecdotal information about people I've actually known and interacted with at sporting events, concerts, festivals, etc. How many 7D/7DII owners that only had one body have you personally interacted with on multiple occasions?

New 7D Mark II (Body Only) cameras have not been available from Canon retailers for almost two years. A few dealers still have a few rare brand new 7D Mark II kits with the EF-S 18-135mm kit lens (but without the Wi-Fi card, which means these kits predate 2017 when Canon stopped shipping any 7D Mark II bodies or kits without the W-E1). That ought to tell you something about which SKU sold faster or was more in demand.

A large part of the reason 7D II was "substantially" cheaper with kit lens than the 6D with kit lens was due to the difference in the two lenses in question.

Upon introduction in 2012, the 6D body was priced at $1899 USD.
Upon introduction in 2014, The 7D Mark II body was priced at $1,799 USD.
Upon introduction in 2017, the 6D Mark II body was priced at $1,999 USD.

So just maybe the larger differences in the kit prices had to do with the difference between the price of the EF-S 18-135mm f/ 3.5-56 IS and the EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS?

 

[Sharlin]

I'm sure most every 70/80/90D owner that fits the profile you describe were glad those cameras had the customized automatic Scene Modes (beach, flowers, snow, night portrait, etc.) and might have chosen them over the 7-Series because the 7-Series bodies did not. They probably didn't mind only having one "C" mode on the dial, since they probably had no idea what the "C" stood for.

I'm… rather doubtful of this, honestly. I would think that most people who ever "graduate" from the entry-level models do so at a point where they don't need the hand-holding of the scene modes anymore, and for many choosing between a 7D(2) and a xxD may not have been trivial. For myself, having been in that situation (going from a 450D to a 7D vs a 60D) the two deciding factors were: a) price and b) the flippy screen. (Some years later, I anguished even more between the 80D and the 7D2, and again the main factors were the same, plus additionally the 80D's improved sensor). But of course this is too just a single datapoint.

 

[Michael Clark]

I'm… rather doubtful of this, honestly. I would think that most people who ever "graduate" from the entry-level models do so at a point where they don't need the hand-holding of the scene modes anymore, and for many choosing between a 7D(2) and a xxD may not have been trivial. For myself, who has been in that situation (from a 450D to a 7D vs 60D) the two deciding factors were: a) price and b) the flippy screen. (Some years later, I anguished even more between the 80D and the 7D2, and again the factors were the same, plus the 80D's improved sensor). But of course this is too just a single datapoint.

Even so, you still make my original point: The 70/80/90Ds were better general purpose cameras than the 7D Mark II was. The 7D Mark II was built for speed and the sensor was optimized for moderately high ISOs, all in a no-frills enclosure that could handle the kind of environmental abuse that field sports and wildlife/birding throw at a camera. It was designed to be a specific tool, rather than a more generalist camera.

 

[takesome1]

Even so, you still make my original point: The 70/80/90Ds were better general purpose cameras than the 7D Mark II was. The 7D Mark II was built for speed and the sensor was optimized for moderately high ISOs, all in a no-frills enclosure that could handle the kind of environmental abuse that field sports and wildlife/birding throw at a camera. It was designed to be a specific tool, rather than a more generalist camera.

It seems Canon didn't see it that way:
"Professional photographers and advanced amateurs have been demanding higher performance and more diverse functions in their cameras, and Canon has answered – with the new EOS 7D."

Released when the 50D was the highest level of APS-C: Canon's new EOS 50D bridges the gap between the novice and the seasoned pro with a perfect combination of high-speed and quality.

The 7D closed that gap further for Canon, giving a body that feel in between the 50D and the 5D II.

Many complained when the 60D released that it was dumbed down from what you could do with the 50D. It was, most likely they didn't want it competing with the 7D.

The 7D line was not a specialty camera or a specific tool. Photographers that believe in the crop "reach fairy" bought in to the idea that it was a specialty animal to give more reach.

I bought in to this line and bought a 7D, after a few months I realized the illusion and bought a 1D IV. The "reach fairy" is a myth created to sell more crop bodies.

If I would have had one thing to change in the progression I bought digital cameras I would have never owned an APS-C body. Those 4 bodies would have paid for an R3. I put the R7 on preorder on its release the other morning, I came to my senses a few hours later and canceled.

 

[mdcmdcmdc]

Now it's showing $499 at Canon USA as well.

View attachment 203882

That’s strange. It says MSRP $479.99, Canon Store price $499.99.

 

[neuroanatomist]

You can criticize my experience all you want, but unless you present factual, documented evidence to the contrary about who bought what camera models with or without kit lenses and why, and how many other bodies those buyers owned, you're just stabbing in the dark at the same time you're criticizing me for introducing anecdotal information about people I've actually known and interacted with at sporting events, concerts, festivals, etc. How many 7D/7DII owners that only had one body have you personally interacted with on multiple occasions?

I am stating an opinion, that's why I used phrases like 'I suspect...' and 'I believe...' Clearly, you're also stating an opinion, and it differs from mine. But you cannot demand that I present factual evidence on unit sales data to support my stated opinion when you have none to present to support your own opinion. I have anecdotal information of my own, in that I knew/know many photographers that upgraded from a Rebel to a 7D, and some subsequently to a 7DII, and while they probably kept the Rebel in a drawer or closet as you suggested, their 7D/7DII was their primary camera, not a timeshare with a FF camera.

So just maybe the larger differences in the kit prices had to do with the difference between the price of the EF-S 18-135mm f/ 3.5-56 IS and the EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS?

Gee, you can look up camera prices on the internet. You must be very proud of your Google-fu, Grasshopper. Your ineffectual sarcasm aside, obviously the difference in kit lens price is what's driving the difference in kit costs. That's exactly my point, thank you for supporting it.

Just in case you're still missing it, the point is that if one was upgrading from a lower-tier APS-C camera to a 7D or 7DII, they would almost certainly already have a standard zoom lens to use on the 7D and could pay the cheaper body-only price. If they were buying a 7-series de novo, they would be getting a cheaper kit lens and thus a cheaper kit. But...if they were upgrading from a lower-tier APS-C camera to a 6D/6DII or buying a 6-series de novo, either way they'd need a standard zoom for their FF camera, because any EF-S lenses they had would not mount on the 6-series body. Thus, most people buying a 6-series as their first FF camera, whether as a first DLSR or an upgrade from an APS-C DSLR, would be paying a lot more than someone buying a 7-series camera whether upgrading or a first-time buyer.

 

[Otara]

"you'd probably get slightly better image quality with the R5 but slightly better AF performance with the R7 (if it's true that it matches the R3 in Servo AF performance)."

This is too similar to the old '1DX AF in the 7D' talk for my liking.

I see lots of 'borrowed from R3' talk but nothing saying 'same AF speed as R3' unless Ive missed something somewhere. Similar features and interface doesnt mean much by itself, given the very different sensors involved.

But if it is, great.

 

[neuroanatomist]

"you'd probably get slightly better image quality with the R5 but slightly better AF performance with the R7 (if it's true that it matches the R3 in Servo AF performance)."

This is too similar to the old '1DX AF in the 7D' talk for my liking.

I see lots of 'borrowed from R3' talk but nothing saying 'same AF speed as R3' unless Ive missed something somewhere. Similar features and interface doesnt mean much by itself, given the very different sensors involved.

But if it is, great.

As I stated earlier, Canon talked up the Servo AF performance of the R3 as being significantly enhanced by the fast readout speed of the stacked sensor that allows the AF system to sample the scene at double the frequency compared to older sensor architecture. The R7 may have inherited algorithms from the R3, but it’s using them with half the data input.

Some people want to believe they’re getting the best for less money. That’s delusion, not reality. My Subaru gets me safely from point A to point B and back, but I don’t delude myself into thinking it’s a BMW.

 

[Otara]

As I stated earlier, Canon talked up the Servo AF performance of the R3 as being significantly enhanced by the fast readout speed of the stacked sensor that allows the AF system to sample the scene at double the frequency compared to older sensor architecture. The R7 may have inherited algorithms from the R3, but it’s using them with half the data input.

Thanks, I just noticed weasel words and assumed something had to give. Wondered if the smaller battery might have an impact in some way too on processing speed etc.

 

[AlanF]

It looks like there has been a rush of pre-orders here for the R7 + RF 18-150mm. The pre-order for the Canon UK store is now no longer available but the body alone is, as well as the R10 kit. WEX has removed the half-price offer for the UHS-II cards with it. I got in my pre-order early on the first morning from WEX.

 

[canonmike]

It looks like there has been a rush of pre-orders here for the R7 + RF 18-150mm. The pre-order for the Canon UK store is now no longer available but the body alone is, as well as the R10 kit. WEX has removed the half-price offer for the UHS-II cards with it. I got in my pre-order early on the first morning from WEX.

Curious, Alan, I just checked Canon USA site, where both are available for pre-order, priced at $1499 and $1899, respectively. Personally, I only wanted the body when I pre-ordered from B&H on day one.

 

[canonmike]

Adorama hosted an R7/R10 discussion with Canon's Rudy Winston. Listening to Rudy's commentary, it was interesting to note that he said that the R7 was not intended to be a direct replacement for the 7Dii nor a successor to the 90D but rather a body that would fit in between these two offerings. In the same interview, he mentioned he doubted there would be any available battery grip for the new R7. Here's a link to the discussion with Rudy. https://www.adorama.com/car7.html. You may have to scroll down to the video link, once on Adorama's site.