The Mess That is the Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Rumor Mill

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
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slclick said:
Ugh, Oly ergonomics are awful and NO, I never got used to the menu system, sure I could have embraced it but I was much happier just selling it.
Yes.... it's funny..... When they first came out with their 4/3 cameras ( not the micro 4/3) they had better ergonomics and menus than the comparable Canons, and since then Canon got much better and Olympus got much worse....
 

Don Haines

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Jun 4, 2012
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Mikehit said:
But according to you size is a major feature for mirrorless. Show me a comparable body+lens combo in Sony approaching the combo from Olympus.
My FF walkabout two lens kit, and my Oly walkabout two lens kit....

The difference in size is phenomenal, and a smaller body on the FF kit would be negligible compared to the lens weight/bulk.

( picture taken with old phone and not a $5000 DSLR..... please don’t banish me for such an evil transgression )
 

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transpo1

EOS RP
Jan 12, 2011
755
103
Canon Rumors said:
It hasn’t been since the release of the EOS 5D Mark III that we have seen this many emails and bits of information flood our inbox, and it’s once again, extremely difficult to figure out what is real.</p>
<p>We’re going to backtrack/reset what we think is happening, based on information from trusted sources. For the record, we’re backtracking on things we’ve posted in recent weeks. I don’t like it, but it happens.</p>
<p>We do know that at least one (and likely two) <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/the-full-list-of-unreleased-canon-camera-ids/">mirrorless cameras have hit certain certification agencies</a>, thanks to <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/the-full-list-of-unreleased-canon-camera-ids/">Nokishita</a> for always finding those. We do not remember a single time that a certified product didn’t reach market, so rest assured, a full frame mirrorless camera is coming and according to the certification information, it’ll be a full frame 30.4mp camera.</p>
<p>The elephant in the room is when are these cameras coming? We were told by a good source that we’d see an announcement in 2018 and <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-will-announce-their-first-full-frame-mirrorless-in-2018-cr3/">even gave it a [CR3] rating</a>. A couple of other sources I’d consider better have both cautioned me that they don’t think an official announcement for a full frame mirrorless camera coming in 2018 at the time of writing this. Which would be bad news to say the least.</p>
<p><!--more--></p>
<p>We’ve said it before and we think it’s still very possible, that a “development” announcement might make some sense, especially if Nikon announces their new system for Photokina.</p>
<p>For now, we can confirm the <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/canon-ef-m-32mm-f-1-4-stm-coming-in-second-half-of-2018-cr3/">EF-M 32mm f/1.4 STM</a> and at least <a href="http://www.canonrumors.com/at-least-two-big-white-lenses-coming-ahead-of-photokina-cr3/">two “big white” lenses</a> for Photokina. We also expect a new kit lens of some kind and there is the possibility of an unknown 5th lens coming in the next few months. What we do not have, is any sort of confirmation about what cameras will be announced for Photokina.</p>
<p>As for the full frame mirrorless, I’m going to tone down significantly what I report on the topic until I get information that I know to be legit, as to not unintentionally mislead the fine readers of this site. There may be a lot of truth in what has been reported, but it’s pretty messy and unfocused.</p>
<p>We’ll be better on this topic going forward.</p>
<span id="pty_trigger"></span>
Sounds like Nikon and Canon are playing head games with each other on when to announce. Old rivalries die hard.
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
re IBIS:

Really waiting for Nikon official announcement. If current strong rumor is confirmed ... "2 compact mirrorless FF cameras with in-body stabilization (!) and new, short flange focal distance Z-mount" and decent ergonomics ... then imagine a few days/weeks later Canon execs at press conference ... announcing (only) big fat, EF-nozzled FF MILCs without IBIS ... total loss if face, possibly seppuku ... or jump from the rooftop of their tokyo office building. since we do not want this to happen, lets hope for a "fully competitive" Canon announcement. :)

i would expect Nikon to have IBIS that works in tandem with legacy and new VR lenses (IBIS + in-lens IS for max. stabilization effect), so lens mount communication/protocol will be crucial.

@Don: Canon MILCs with new short FFD EF-X mount could be made any body size between XS and XXL.
LP-E6N (-sized) power packs definitely no problem from size "M" upwards. even LP-E19 battery size would be possible in XXL body. independent of lens mount decision. EF mount would severly limit possible range to only "L to XXL" cameras. why would Canon take a decision that prevents (possible) smaller FF cameras? when full backwards compatibility with legacy EF glass is no problem via a simple little extension tube. to me that qualifies as much more "elegant solution" rather than limiting future product universe to size "L, XL and XXL". no fashion/garment manufacturer would do that as long as there are customers in sizes "XS, S and M" as well. :)
Canon will not do it either.
 

bdbender4

EOS M50
Jan 19, 2017
34
22
fullstop said:
"...Canon MILCs with new short FFD EF-X mount could be made any body size between XS and XXL.
LP-E6N (-sized) power packs definitely no problem from size "M" upwards. even LP-E19 battery size would be possible in XXL body. independent of lens mount decision. EF mount would severly limit possible range to only "L to XXL" cameras. why would Canon take a decision that prevents (possible) smaller FF cameras? when full backwards compatibility with legacy EF glass is no problem via a simple little extension tube... "
Amen. Thom Hogan recently had an interesting piece on the "prisoners dilemma" that Nikon and Canon face regarding new mounts vs. huge numbers of lenses already out there. His site is nominally a Nikon one, and I gave up on Nikon years ago, but he has good insight into the overall market.

And good to be back on topic. Why in the world are we arguing about Olympus vs. Sony? I don't see any applicable lessons for Canon or the thread topic there, myself.
 

Durf

Picture Taker - Image Maker
Don Haines said:
Mikehit said:
But according to you size is a major feature for mirrorless. Show me a comparable body+lens combo in Sony approaching the combo from Olympus.
My FF walkabout two lens kit, and my Oly walkabout two lens kit....

The difference in size is phenomenal, and a smaller body on the FF kit would be negligible compared to the lens weight/bulk.

( picture taken with old phone and not a $5000 DSLR..... please don’t banish me for such an evil transgression )
One kit you carry with a small camera bag and the other you push around in a wheel barrel! LOL

I'm a wheel barrel type of guy!
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
bdbender4 said:
Why in the world are we arguing about Olympus vs. Sony? I don't see any applicable lessons for Canon or the thread topic there, myself.
it is part of the ongoing debate where some forum members are unable or unwilling to accept that FF mirrorless cameras can also come in a very small package if the mirror box space is totally eliminated by using a (n ew) mount with a short flange focal distance. They love to claim that compact/small cameras are only possible with small(er) sensors. So I was proving that some existing FF MILCs and lenses in a certain focal length range are just as compact as crop sensor cameras with an equivalent lens - all the way down to some mFT gear.

I remain convinced that Canon will launch their upcoming FF MILC system with a new native mount. Short FFD plus very wide throat. That's the most "elegant" and only viable solution allowing Canon to make and sell future cameras in any size from XS to XXL. There are potential buyers for all of those sizes. Depending on use case / personal preferences.

And even more importantly: Canon will sell a lot more lenses if they offer new, better lenses with a new mount rather than just EF glass in minor Mk. II, III, IV, V iterations.
 

fullstop

EOS R
Apr 23, 2018
1,088
153
Durf said:
One kit you carry with a small camera bag and the other you push around in a wheel barrel! LOL
I'm a wheel barrel type of guy!
hehe, and I am a "shirt-pocket man". ;D ;D ;D


PS: Actually "small pouch". ;)
 

CanonFanBoy

Real men single speed.
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Jan 28, 2015
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Don Haines said:
CanonFanBoy said:
And the OLY is a pain in the hands to hold. I can't see the Sony being any better. I have an OLY. Takes good photos for M43. Terrible ergonomics.Terrible. Everything is jammed together and it is not comfortable at all. BUt, I have yuge hands. Yours might be small enough, but that's mighty small. They don't call it Micro 4/3 for nothing.
Got one too.... The ergonomics SUCKS!!!!!!!!! but after a while you get used to the menu system... The main reason I like the big cameras 5 series, 7 series, etc, is the well thought out and properly spaced controls that there is just no room for on tiny bodies.

(BTW, the 6D2 touchscreen interface is wonderful)
Yup. I got the Olympus because my wife is tiny (4'11'') and wanted a tiny camera. She loves it, but only shoots on auto. I've borrowed it a few times to try it out on some of my manual legacy glass (very light and small glass), but still prefer the Canon.

Don, I went from the 70D to the 5D Mark III. The only thing I miss in the switch is the articulated touch screen. Not for video (I don't shoot video), but for those times when I need to get down low or up high. Those screens really make the cameras all the more comfortable to use for an older guy.
 

Don Haines

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Jun 4, 2012
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fullstop said:
bdbender4 said:
Why in the world are we arguing about Olympus vs. Sony? I don't see any applicable lessons for Canon or the thread topic there, myself.
it is part of the ongoing debate where some forum members are unable or unwilling to accept that FF mirrorless cameras can also come in a very small package if the mirror box space is totally eliminated by using a (n ew) mount with a short flange focal distance. They love to claim that compact/small cameras are only possible with small(er) sensors. So I was proving that some existing FF MILCs and lenses in a certain focal length range are just as compact as crop sensor cameras with an equivalent lens - all the way down to some mFT gear.

I remain convinced that Canon will launch their upcoming FF MILC system with a new native mount. Short FFD plus very wide throat. That's the most "elegant" and only viable solution allowing Canon to make and sell future cameras in any size from XS to XXL. There are potential buyers for all of those sizes. Depending on use case / personal preferences.

And even more importantly: Canon will sell a lot more lenses if they offer new, better lenses with a new mount rather than just EF glass in minor Mk. II, III, IV, V iterations.
It's not that simple....

What I am claiming is that with fast or long glass, there are miniscule benefits to be gained from a short flange mirrorless camera and that Canon would be insane to abandon the EF mount and go exclusively to a new mirrorless mount... the gains are not there and the cost is too high. If you are that concerned about small size, you are never going to be able to compete against a crop mirrorless and slower lenses....

HOWEVER!, there is another option here.... For those who want the tiny body and the subsequent loss of controls, there are a few mitigating factors that may make things worthwhile. The first is the touchscreen interface on the 6D2 and 5D4.... this is good enough to compensate for the missing dials and buttons that come (or rather do not come) with a small body. The second factor would be if Canon decided to put out some slow L glass for this smaller flange distance. You do not get decent size savings with fast glass, but you do with F5.6 and 6.3 lenses. The big question, and it is open to debate, is if this market is large enough to be viable? With M, the market is cheap, small, moderate quality.... With FF DSLR the market is expensive, top quality, and size be damned...How many want to be somewhere in the middle? How many wqant the compromise? Can Canon make money there?


Canon is not a company of morons. Look at what they did with the M.... The criteria was to come out with a small camera SYSTEM.... just having a small camera and no small lenses is a ridiculous proposition, so we are now in the position where crop shooters have choices between a small system, or a larger system with faster lenses and with longer lenses...... and I suspect that the same will hold true for FF.


EF is here to stay. I suspect that a shorter flange "M-like" mount will also be here to stay. They are complimentary products, not competing products.
 

CanonFanBoy

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fullstop said:
They love to claim that compact/small cameras are only possible with small(er) sensors. So I was proving that some existing FF MILCs and lenses in a certain focal length range are just as compact as crop sensor cameras with an equivalent lens - all the way down to some mFT gear.
Nobody said this, ever. Listening to those voices in your head again? You didn't have to prove anything. The evidence is already there with Sony.

What anyone is saying against mirrorless is that what is currently out there in FF is crap to hold, would be ungainly with "L" glass, has all the buttons and dials crammed together, etc. The ergonomics suck. Really suck.

You showed the FF Sony next to an Olympus m43 camera of about the same size. I actually have one. I have actually hold one every few days. I have an Olympus pro lens. Even with that small lens and light weight, it sucks! The ergonomics suck! By the looks of it, Sony sucks too. Add to that heavier glass (a la Sony) and the suck would suffocate.

I mean really, AvTvM, you are obsessed with an idea in your head that has absolutely no basis in reality: That Canon would sell more stuff if only Canon would do what you think Canon should do. They'd sell a lot more Cameras and Lenses if they would only tap your wisdom listen to you. You have your finger finger on the pulse of the market... because in your mind, you are the market. Anyone who doesn't see that must be daft, in your opinion.

Paraphrase: "I want *this* and millions of other people do too. They are all just too dense to see that they will love my idea if they will just obey and follow. The people at Canon are also too stupid to see my vision."

Here's what your comparison photos don't show: That the savings would be in the lens size not the camera body size. All the smaller body really does is cramp and %#@* things up. So keep dreaming. Keep deluding yourself into thinking you know better than we (and your millions of friends that you personally know) want to have. Of course, I have yuge hands. A tiny camera would fit you better. I can guess why a FF Canon is cumbersome to you.

The Canon fits me. The tiny camera? Nope. It's actually harder to handle and manipulate. I pray you never get what you want.

Tell me again, what is a tiny bodied camera going to do for us? Allow us to fit another filter in the bag? BTW: The last photo shows a FF (M42 screw on) to M43 adapter. Sort of like the adapter we'd have to use with your fantasy camera while we wait for our EF glass to die on the vine.

I don't believe that Canon will make a tiny FF camera. It would really suck.
 

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bdbender4

EOS M50
Jan 19, 2017
34
22
Durf said:
One kit you carry with a small camera bag and the other you push around in a wheel barrel! LOL

I'm a wheel barrel type of guy!
Durf, good on ye', now that is funny! And I got rid of my heavy stuff, as I said. Small bag now.

I am still confused by all the Oly stuff, though.

Am I the only one on this thread with an M5? Canon did a good job with ergonomics on this camera. Far from perfect, and fewer buttons and dials than a FF Pro DSLR, for sure. And not enough good lenses yet for a system. But a pleasure to use, at least for me. I didn't have Oly or Sony, but in my case the M5 booted my Fuji setup out the door.

AND the M5 has another message from the present/future: a really good touch screen setup, that works when you use either eye on the viewfinder. You can set it up to not nose poke! And now being left-eyed due to fairly recent eye surgery, this is a big deal.
 

slclick

Pinhole
Dec 17, 2013
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bdbender4 said:
Durf said:
One kit you carry with a small camera bag and the other you push around in a wheel barrel! LOL

I'm a wheel barrel type of guy!
Durf, good on ye', now that is funny! And I got rid of my heavy stuff, as I said. Small bag now.

I am still confused by all the Oly stuff, though.

Am I the only one on this thread with an M5? Canon did a good job with ergonomics on this camera. Far from perfect, and fewer buttons and dials than a FF Pro DSLR, for sure. And not enough good lenses yet for a system. But a pleasure to use, at least for me. I didn't have Oly or Sony, but in my case the M5 booted my Fuji setup out the door.

AND the M5 has another message from the present/future: a really good touch screen setup, that works when you use either eye on the viewfinder. You can set it up to not nose poke! And now being left-eyed due to fairly recent eye surgery, this is a big deal.
Yes, I have said these same sentiments over and over. But who reads my posts, right
 

CanonFanBoy

Real men single speed.
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Jan 28, 2015
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slclick said:
bdbender4 said:
Durf said:
One kit you carry with a small camera bag and the other you push around in a wheel barrel! LOL

I'm a wheel barrel type of guy!
Durf, good on ye', now that is funny! And I got rid of my heavy stuff, as I said. Small bag now.

I am still confused by all the Oly stuff, though.

Am I the only one on this thread with an M5? Canon did a good job with ergonomics on this camera. Far from perfect, and fewer buttons and dials than a FF Pro DSLR, for sure. And not enough good lenses yet for a system. But a pleasure to use, at least for me. I didn't have Oly or Sony, but in my case the M5 booted my Fuji setup out the door.

AND the M5 has another message from the present/future: a really good touch screen setup, that works when you use either eye on the viewfinder. You can set it up to not nose poke! And now being left-eyed due to fairly recent eye surgery, this is a big deal.
Yes, I have said these same sentiments over and over. But who reads my posts, right
I read them everyday. ;)
 

BillB

EOS R
May 11, 2017
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So did Canon delay the rollout? Was it somebody messing with our minds? Or did the rumors just get it wrong? Maybe Canon wants Nikon to put its cards on the table first (marketing strategy). Or maybe Canon is just taking its time. Or maybe it is moving as fast as it wants to (development schedule).
 

mb66energy

EOS R
Dec 18, 2011
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BillB said:
So did Canon delay the rollout? Was it somebody messing with our minds? Or did the rumors just get it wrong? Maybe Canon wants Nikon to put its cards on the table first (marketing strategy). Or maybe Canon is just taking its time. Or maybe it is moving as fast as it wants to (development schedule).
I think it's just that: If you see Nikon marketing you cannot change the camera quickly but you can modify advertising flyers / web sites / videos to emphasize your products strengths in comparison to the product of the other company.

Another reason may be the fact that the news-like character of news fades very fast - so it might be better to create these news maybe 3 weeks in front of photokina to put a new product in the media effectively. And new news put older news down - sometimes it is better to be the second one.
 

Mikehit

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Jul 28, 2015
3,313
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mb66energy said:
BillB said:
So did Canon delay the rollout? Was it somebody messing with our minds? Or did the rumors just get it wrong? Maybe Canon wants Nikon to put its cards on the table first (marketing strategy). Or maybe Canon is just taking its time. Or maybe it is moving as fast as it wants to (development schedule).
I think it's just that: If you see Nikon marketing you cannot change the camera quickly but you can modify advertising flyers / web sites / videos to emphasize your products strengths in comparison to the product of the other company.

Another reason may be the fact that the news-like character of news fades very fast - so it might be better to create these news maybe 3 weeks in front of photokina to put a new product in the media effectively. And new news put older news down - sometimes it is better to be the second one.
Canon have never to my knowledge done that, and never targetted their advertising to counteract someone else's. Are you aware of how much time and effort it takes to develop and design a global roll-out campaign? Coordinating publications, training sales teams, getting your favoured professionals on-message? It is not something you can change in a couple of weeks.

In fact I would go so far as to say Canon are actually quite poor at pushing aspects of their cameras that are not immediately obvious on the spec sheet. By that I mean the little things that make the whole experience more enjoyable.
 

filipe.ngra

I'm New Here
Sep 15, 2016
12
6




We have to love this ecosystem...

Did you guys know that the m50 (i have bought one to my wife) have eye focus that works very nice? It is the absolutly main feature that will make me move to one ff mirrorless.