The Next DSLR Will Be Entry Level [CR3]

[DanielW]

And yet...not surprisingly, the SL1, T3i, and T3 are all outselling the D3200 and D3100 on Amazon - so maybe Nikon should be embarrassed? Pentax and Sony? LOL. Judging by their sales rankings, consumers don't find them interesting at all. No Sony cameras in Amazon's Top 30 dSLRs. Speaking of 'dated', there is a Pentax at #29...but it's not the 'considerably better' K500, but rather the K-1000...I guess it's a good thing you can buy the film (!) for it on Amazon, too.

The "bigger marketshare = better than" argument is pretty lame.

Seriously, anytime you feel like hauling out the "but Canon sells more!" argument ask yourself if Budweiser really is the best beer in America.

I didn't say 'technically superior', did I? In the case of the T3, it's most likely 'cheaper than.' And with apologies to any Bud drinkers out there, I prefer beers I can't see through.

But the point of the argument isn't which camera or beer you or I think is better, it's which camera or beer the majority of people choose for themselves. Look around your house - how many things do you see that, when you bought them, you thought 'this isn't the best product for me, but I'm going to buy it anyway'? Something may be better for you because it's cheaper, because your friends have one so you can ask them about it, because it has some feature that you particularly want, because it was available at the store you were shopping in, or a myriad of other reasons...but I'd argue the vast majority of time, when people make buying choices for non-necessary items, they're choosing what they believe is best for them.

"Best" is arbitrary and highly subjective...we define it for ourselves based on our own needs. "Most popular based on sales volume" is objective, and happens because a majority of those subjectively defining 'best for them' as that particular brand. In the case of beer, that's Budweiser...and for dSLRs, that's Canon.

Neuro, do you know if it is possible to obtain from Amazon, or from some other store, relative selling numbers? I assume retailers will not tell us how many cameras they sold last year, but maybe we can get them to tell us proportions (e.g., three 5D3 for every D800).
Maybe that lovely lady from Adorama (unfortunately I forgot her name) can tell us something like that.
I guess we could then have a better idea about market share.
Cheers,
Daniel

 

[DanielW]

There was no mention of what the third one would be, as that could still be under tight wrap in Japan.

Maybe the third camera is a new 6D with improved AF system? 19-point AF, all cross-type?
That would justify seeing so many rebates for the 6D lately.
Daniel

 

[Sanaraken]

There was no mention of what the third one would be, as that could still be under tight wrap in Japan.

Maybe the third camera is a new 6D with improved AF system? 19-point AF, all cross-type?
That would justify seeing so many rebates for the 6D lately.
Daniel

If thats happens. I would be buying a 6DII as a second body instead of another 5DIII.

 

[tron]

There was no mention of what the third one would be, as that could still be under tight wrap in Japan.

Maybe the third camera is a new 6D with improved AF system? 19-point AF, all cross-type?
That would justify seeing so many rebates for the 6D lately.
Daniel

If thats happens. I would be buying a 6DII as a second body instead of another 5DIII.

Wishful thinking... 8)

 

[Quasimodo]

"It was also confirmed that “a lot” of lenses were coming this year" - my source has confirmed one of these lenses will be 16-35 III. IQ is Better than Nikorrr 14-24 f2.8 ;D

Are you serious or just messing with us? If serious, how trustworthy is your source?

I'd love a tack sharp 16-35 III.

I might be out of tune, but I am quite happy with my 16-35II

 

[HurtinMinorKey]

Below the 100D? You mean the market segment that doesn't exist because it's IQ is indistinguishable from iPhones? Get a clue Canon.

 

[Woody]

Below the 100D? You mean the market segment that doesn't exist because it's IQ is indistinguishable from iPhones? Get a clue Canon.

You mean the iPhone produces the same image quality as the T3/1100D 12 MP APS-C sensor? Get a clue HurtinMinorKey.

 

[Eldar]

And yet...not surprisingly, the SL1, T3i, and T3 are all outselling the D3200 and D3100 on Amazon - so maybe Nikon should be embarrassed? Pentax and Sony? LOL. Judging by their sales rankings, consumers don't find them interesting at all. No Sony cameras in Amazon's Top 30 dSLRs. Speaking of 'dated', there is a Pentax at #29...but it's not the 'considerably better' K500, but rather the K-1000...I guess it's a good thing you can buy the film (!) for it on Amazon, too.

The "bigger marketshare = better than" argument is pretty lame.

Seriously, anytime you feel like hauling out the "but Canon sells more!" argument ask yourself if Budweiser really is the best beer in America.

I didn't say 'technically superior', did I? In the case of the T3, it's most likely 'cheaper than.' And with apologies to any Bud drinkers out there, I prefer beers I can't see through.

But the point of the argument isn't which camera or beer you or I think is better, it's which camera or beer the majority of people choose for themselves. Look around your house - how many things do you see that, when you bought them, you thought 'this isn't the best product for me, but I'm going to buy it anyway'? Something may be better for you because it's cheaper, because your friends have one so you can ask them about it, because it has some feature that you particularly want, because it was available at the store you were shopping in, or a myriad of other reasons...but I'd argue the vast majority of time, when people make buying choices for non-necessary items, they're choosing what they believe is best for them.

"Best" is arbitrary and highly subjective...we define it for ourselves based on our own needs. "Most popular based on sales volume" is objective, and happens because a majority of those subjectively defining 'best for them' as that particular brand. In the case of beer, that's Budweiser...and for dSLRs, that's Canon.

To support Neuro´s point; Even though we are the enthusiastic community, looking for improvements and quantum leaps within the areas that matters the most to us, we have to accept that Canon is a business. Like Zappa & The Mothers, they´re only in it for the money.
In a commercial business as this, it is a combination of technology, branding, marketing, happy customers, volume and profitability. And the combination of these is what Canon does better than the others. I would have been an even happier man if they were a couple of snaps worse on marketing, so they had to be a couple of snaps better on technology (read sensor), but at the same time, no other supplier can provide what I have.
But a 7DII, to complement my 1DX for wildlife and birds, with improved AF, better high ISO performance, better DR and ... shit I´m dreaming again ...

 

[GmwDarkroom]

Seriously, anytime you feel like hauling out the "but Canon sells more!" argument ask yourself if Budweiser really is the best beer in America.

This is not a valid analogy. If Budweiser were $8-$10 a six pack instead of $8-$10 a case -- or whatever it costs -- the analogy would be valid. In the case of the Nikon and Canon entry bodies, the pricing is close enough to not matter. If the D3200 was $800 or more, I'd agree with your statement. But if Bud were $8 a six pack, nobody would buy it.

Now when Neuro says that Canon is leading because Rebels outsell the D3x, you'll have a valid argument.

 

[HurtinMinorKey]

Below the 100D? You mean the market segment that doesn't exist because it's IQ is indistinguishable from iPhones? Get a clue Canon.

You mean the iPhone produces the same image quality as the T3/1100D 12 MP APS-C sensor? Get a clue HurtinMinorKey.

In the hands of the people who would actually buy something on par with the T3, yes. Also, the iphone has vastly superior video.

This just seems like an attempt to kill off the EOS M (also done in by smartphone competition), and replace it with something that has a traditional mount.

 

[Loswr]

Below the 100D? You mean the market segment that doesn't exist because it's IQ is indistinguishable from iPhones? Get a clue Canon.

You mean the iPhone produces the same image quality as the T3/1100D 12 MP APS-C sensor? Get a clue HurtinMinorKey.

In the hands of the people who would actually buy something on par with the T3, yes.

That's a nice sweeping generalization, and of course it makes perfect sense, because all those people with great artistic vision and technical photographic skills can easily afford a 5DIII. Plus, all those moms and dads with new babies are just oozing with disposable income, it's not like babies are expensive or anything...

Good luck finding that clue!

 

[hgraf]

Below the 100D? You mean the market segment that doesn't exist because it's IQ is indistinguishable from iPhones? Get a clue Canon.

You mean the iPhone produces the same image quality as the T3/1100D 12 MP APS-C sensor? Get a clue HurtinMinorKey.

In the hands of the people who would actually buy something on par with the T3, yes. Also, the iphone has vastly superior video.

I'm always surprised by how detached some people on here become from the "common" market, where entry level is king.

I started with the equivalent of the T3 (The Rebel XS/1000D). And yes, it was VERY entry level, but you know what? I learned alot from that camera, it STILL takes great pictures (with the right glass), and I'm sorry, but even the absolute cheapest SLR with the crappiest kit lens takes images FAR BEYOND what an iphone does. I still use my XS for time lapses and just a "throw it in the back seat" sort of camera.

Don't get me know, I LOVE the fact that pretty much everybody has a camera in their pocket now. From getting news as it actually happens, to civil liberties, to just plain fun it has been a wonderful revolution.

But to say that the "average" person with an iphone wouldn't get better IQ from an entry level DSLR is simply ludicrous.

As for video, wiki shows the T3 is capable of 720p video. While not 1080p, that's actually pretty good (alot of people shoot 720p anyways to get the 60fps framerate for flexibility in post to slow video down).

Is the fact that the T3 does "only" 720p while the iPhone does 1080p the reason you label the iPhone's video capabilities as "vastly superior"? If so, that's a load of rubbish. 1080p video off a cell phone is so massively compressed it's NOWHERE near as good as what you get from even an entry level DSLR. I've seen the 1080p video out of an iPhone. It's good, but it's blown away from the 720p and 1080p I get from my DSLRs (and even P&Ss). And that's in good light. Drop the light and any smartphone's video will be a mess of compression artefacts and digital noise from having such a small sensor.

Finally, as a reminder: not everybody has $3000+ for a DSLR. And I'm sorry, for the VAST majority of images even seasoned photographers take the T3 would "work" well enough. The quality of image you get from even an entry level APS-C camera these days is astonishing.

TTYL

 

[KyleSTL]

Not surprising. The specifications of the 1100D are embarrassing compared to the D3300 (and the D3200 and D3100 that preceded it). The Pentax K500 and all the Sony offerings are considerably better in every aspect as well. With the exception of the 100D (size) and 70D (dual pixel AF), Canon's crop offering are pretty dated and uninteresting.

And yet...not surprisingly, the SL1, T3i, and T3 are all outselling the D3200 and D3100 on Amazon - so maybe Nikon should be embarrassed? Pentax and Sony? LOL. Judging by their sales rankings, consumers don't find them interesting at all. No Sony cameras in Amazon's Top 30 dSLRs. Speaking of 'dated', there is a Pentax at #29...but it's not the 'considerably better' K500, but rather the K-1000...I guess it's a good thing you can buy the film (!) for it on Amazon, too.

As a business, I agree with you 100% - Sony, Pentax and Nikon are definitely lack-luster.

As a [well-informed] consumer, I would never buy a current entry-level DSLR from Canon, or recommend them to a friend or family member due to the lack of competitive specifications - even though I think Canon is a superior system overall. That's saying something.

 

[HurtinMinorKey]

That's a nice sweeping generalization, and of course it makes perfect sense, because all those people with great artistic vision and technical photographic skills can easily afford a 5DIII. Plus, all those moms and dads with new babies are just oozing with disposable income, it's not like babies are expensive or anything...

Good luck finding that clue!

No, most people in that position will get an iphone to save money, get almost as good a camera, and better video.

Above the t3, below the 100D we're talking ~$400. If you really want IQ then you'll jump up to 70D (or 100D) for less than $100 more.

Do i need go give you a lesson about marginal utility?

 

[HurtinMinorKey]

Is the fact that the T3 does "only" 720p while the iPhone does 1080p the reason you label the iPhone's video capabilities as "vastly superior"? If so, that's a load of rubbish. 1080p video off a cell phone is so massively compressed it's NOWHERE near as good as what you get from even an entry level DSLR. I've seen the 1080p video out of an iPhone. It's good, but it's blown away from the 720p and 1080p I get from my DSLRs (and even P&Ss). And that's in good light. Drop the light and any smartphone's video will be a mess of compression artefacts and digital noise from having such a small sensor.

The iphone has a much more capable processor inside of it, which is why it does higher frame rates than the 100D, let alone t3. Apple also doesn't to worry about nerfing the IQ in order to maintain product differentiation.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/rebel-sl1.htm

To sum up, iPhone has better screen, better audio, and better at handling low light noise. And I'm pretty sure that was comparing to iPhone 5.

For the record. I'm not an Apple fan at all. I have a windows phone!

 

[DanielW]

This one has become a quite amusing thread to read.
(Goes buy some more popcorn.)

 

[hgraf]

Is the fact that the T3 does "only" 720p while the iPhone does 1080p the reason you label the iPhone's video capabilities as "vastly superior"? If so, that's a load of rubbish. 1080p video off a cell phone is so massively compressed it's NOWHERE near as good as what you get from even an entry level DSLR. I've seen the 1080p video out of an iPhone. It's good, but it's blown away from the 720p and 1080p I get from my DSLRs (and even P&Ss). And that's in good light. Drop the light and any smartphone's video will be a mess of compression artefacts and digital noise from having such a small sensor.

The iphone has a much more capable processor inside of it, which is why it does higher frame rates than the 100D, let alone t3. Apple also doesn't to worry about nerfing the IQ in order to maintain product differentiation.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/rebel-sl1.htm

To sum up, iPhone has better screen, better audio, and better at handling low light noise. And I'm pretty sure that was comparing to iPhone 5.

For the record. I'm not an Apple fan at all. I have a windows phone!

OMG, you are using a Ken Rockwell review as basis for your argument?

I think you should do a few Google searches on your source, you may find the term "entertainment value" show up.

As for the comment "better at handling low light noise", you're kidding, right? Have you SEEN the noise that a small sensor like in the iPhone produces as ISO's above base? I have, there is no comparison. An iPhone type sensor, while really good for what it is, has noise levels at ISO400 that you don't see until 6400 on a Canon APS-C sensor. I know this, since I've actually compared it.

I think you should do a little more research and have sources a little more reliable before continuing to comment.

 

[DanielW]

FOR SALE

Canon 60D with ca. 20,000 actuations
Three batteries
Kit lens 18-135 mm
Canon EF-s 17-55/2.8 lens
Canon EF 50/1.4 lens
Canon Speedlite 430 EXII
Manfrotto tripod
6x 16 GB SD cards
Bag
Filters
Hoods

$3,000
OR
WILL TRADE FOR AN IPHONE

555-OHWELL

 

[Loswr]

No, most people in that position will get an iphone to save money, get almost as good a camera, and better video.

Do i need go give you a lesson about marginal utility?

I rahter suspect most people currently buying an entry level dSLR already have a camera phone (and in the US, odds are it's a smartphone with a decent camera), and are buying a dSLR because the camera phone isn't meeting their needs.

Do you a lesson on the effect of sensor size on image quality? Maybe I'll let Phil Schiller school you…

iPhone 5s has 'bigger and better' pixels that are 1.5 µm in size. The T3 has 'biggerer and betterer' pixels that are ~3.5 times larger, in a sensor with an 18 times larger area. Bigger sensor = better picture.

Sure, you can use a good processor and apply gobs of noise reduction. Unfortunately, it isn't free - it comes at the expense of lost detail.

Darn, those clues are so bloody elusive…I see you still haven't found one yet. Keep looking...

 

[ajfotofilmagem]

Just release a 12MP sensor with very good low light performance (clean images at ISO6400) and 100d body and i'm sold. Put 2 fps and no video and I can live with that.

I agree with your idea, but I know we are a minority. :-X I'd buy several units 12 megapixel camera with clean image at ISO 6400 and priced around $ 600. : The problem is that this hypothetical camera could steal sales of more expensive models, and Canon not want to decrease their profits. :-\