There may be a higher-end APS-C mirrorless announced in late 2020, early 2021 [CR2]

Baron_Karza

EOS RP
Feb 17, 2019
343
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Hopefully it uses the current EF-M mount. these are great little cameras and that lens mount helps keep the total system small, especially with longer focal length lenses. A nice compliment to the larger R cameras. Hopefully it will have the IBIS system like the R5. I'll wait for some specs to come in before asking if it has any missing features, because I do have one hot burning spec questions.
 
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nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
310
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Calgary
Looking at the M design language, it would seem to me that if Canon came out with a higher end EOS M camera, it would likely be with IBIS rather than weather sealing. Of course Canon could also come out with an aps-c R camera to replace the 7D as a bird shooter. But with the introduction of the R5 and R6 together with the 600 and 800 and extenders, is an R aps-c camera needed to assume the role of a 7D?
 

nchoh

EOS RP
Apr 3, 2018
310
196
Calgary
I don't see how Canon can replace all those Rebels they sell at Costco without RF-S bodies. I suppose they could greatly expand the M line, but that doesn't offer much of an upgrade path to RF, which seems like it'd be a critical goal. The nice thing here is that RF-S bodies in this case would pair well with the higher res R bodies going forward since they'd actually be able to mount -S lenses, unlike with EF-S

Great point, Canon will definitely be looking at how to address the N American market which by and large ignores the M cameras. I think they'll just minimally update the Rebel models (at least for the next 2 years perhaps?).
 

Bert63

What’s in da box?
CR Pro
Dec 3, 2017
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Looking at the M design language, it would seem to me that if Canon came out with a higher end EOS M camera, it would likely be with IBIS rather than weather sealing. Of course Canon could also come out with an aps-c R camera to replace the 7D as a bird shooter. But with the introduction of the R5 and R6 together with the 600 and 800 and extenders, is an R aps-c camera needed to assume the role of a 7D?


I only speak for me obviously but as a former 7D2 shooter I don't understand why people dwell on the crop bodies for wildlife. Aside from the extra reach (which I overcame using the 1.4X) I don't see the attraction. When I head out the door birding (which is almost what I do exclusively) I'm carrying the 5D4 or EOS-R.

They are superior than the 7D2 in every single way except FPS.

YMMV..
 
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Steve Balcombe

Too much gear
Aug 1, 2014
263
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It's not a given that I would fully switch to mirrorless, but if I did then an R7 next spring/summer to pair with the planned R5 could be very sweet. Basically an R5 body and exactly the same controls for muscle memory; 30-35 MP like the 90D; 12/20 fps. Uncropped oversampled 4K and crop 4K. Two card slots - maybe somebody smarter than me could work out whether CFexpress would be needed? Price hopefully a bit less than the R6.

And Canon, give us a fully L-class weatherproof 15-XXX f/4 standard zoom for RF crop!! - like you never did for EF-S.
 

Keith_Reeder

I really don't mind offending trolls.
Feb 8, 2014
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Why? The 'extra reach' of the crop?
Yep, that. I love my 10Dx, but I really miss the "croppability" of higher density sensors.

I'm a paid-up subscriber to the benefits of maximal Pixels Per Duck...

(And to head it off, I'm not up for discussing my "error" here - I know what I've seen in years of Real World shooting...)
 
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Jul 19, 2017
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Prague
Apart from birders I don't truly understand who would benefit from an APS-C R camera. (Disclaimer: I own both R and M bodies and lenses.)

APS-C can have advantage of cost, size and reach. Cost can be covered by cheap FF R bodies, size advantage would be only with RF-S lenses and reach, well, if we ignore extenders then R7 can make sense here.

I doubt Canon would make a fully featured set of RF-S lenses. Just look at EF-S lineup or Nikon's Z crop lineup, they are pathetic, you're supposed to use bigger and costlier FF lenses. Even standalone EF-M lineup is not full after all those years. Sony's E lenses lineup is also somehow neglected. You'd be left waiting years for any new offerings.

It would inevitably mean using fullframe lenses on your crop R camera. That means M vs crop R:
  • EF-M 32mm f/1.4 vs RF 35mm f/1.8, first much smaller with 2/3 EV faster aperture.
  • EF-M 22mm f/2 vs rumored RF 24mm f/2.8, first amazingly compact and cheap, second probably heavier (due IS and Macro), with 1 EV slower aperture
  • EF-M 15-45mm f/3.5-6.3 vs rumored RF 18-45, first compact and cheap, the second probably bigger, not that wide and who knows with latest Canon trends, maybe even f/7.1 aperture.
  • EF-M 11-22mm f/4-5.6 vs... what? Canon could release something like RF 10-18mm f/5.6-7.1 with soft fullframe corners to shave some weight. Otherwise you're left with massive EF 11-24 f/4L, RF widest luxurious RF 15-35mm, or adapting EF-S 10-18.
  • EF-M 18-150mm vs... what? I doubt there would be fullframe RF 18-150 lens, so adapt EF-S lens and hope for RF-S.
 
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unfocused

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The nice thing about both EF-M and EF-S is they provided an upgrade path to better lenses. I had the terrible kit 18-55 I on my 20D. A while after I got a 60D, and ended up putting a 28-70L on it, knowing I was probably going to move to full frame. And now, I'll probably just stick with an adaptor on a mirrorless body. It's really nice that literally every lens in my bag can be mounted on a R/5/6.

The "problem" with RF on a small body is it's a huge mount. Even RF-S lenses would likely be super chunky at the back. You're just not gonna get something like the EF-M 22 on RF. There'll be a size difference.

EF-M messes with that. So either Canon:
- Has research showing that crop buyers don't move to full frame as often as we all think and will just keep 2 systems
- Plans to consolidate the two somehow
- Hasn't figured out their long term plan yet?
You've articulated the problem nicely. It almost feels like Canon rushed the M system into production so they'd have something in the mirrorless realm, figuring that mirrorless would be dominated by small cameras and small sensors. Then, decided there was a market for full frame mirrorless and decided to jump into that in a big way, but realized that to fully take advantage of mirrorless they'd need an entirely new full frame mount since the M mount was unsuitable for full frame, so had to roll the dice on yet another mount.

Maybe that's not how it happened, but it sure feels like it.

I respect their courage in deciding to create a new RF mount, despite the risks, but I don't think anyone can deny that it has created some real challenges for them in compatibility.

Nowhere is that more evident than in the enthusiast/professional APS-C realm. Things were quite simple with the 7D series. Canon produced a handful of APS-C lenses that were suitable at the wide/normal range (one ultra-wide and two standard zooms) and that was all they needed, as the 7D market ended up being dominated by those wanting the extra reach that APS-C offers on longer lenses and for that the EF lenses were perfect.

But, with mirrorless there is dilemma. Do they use the M mount, where they don't have either a 15-85 mm general purpose lens or a standard zoom with fast constant aperture? Or do they do a one-off with the R system and, as they did with APS-H, never bothering to offer lenses in the wide-to-standard range?

Hence, my reference to them painting themselves into a corner.
 
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HenryL

EOS R5
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Apr 1, 2020
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Did you sell it to finance the R5? It's such a great camera. I had it out in the yard day before yesterday on my new econo-gimbal birding.

I think you'll be thrilled with the R5. I went from the 5D4 to the EOS-R and had about a three second adjustment period to learn to love the EVF, but the transition in that regard was painless. Some of the other features - like 'touch and drag' auto-focus and edge to edge focus area will win you over before you take the first picture.

Yes and no...I had budgeted for a 5D4 replacement this year anyway, whether DSLR or mirrorless. Since right now and for the immediate future, with the covid situation being what it is, I'm really only doing wildlife and nature stuff not getting back to portraits as I had hoped. 7D2 can covers those needs easily, so between the two cameras, the 5D4 was going to net more $$$ so I got rid of it. Plus, my son is eying my 7D2, and he may luck out if the R5 is all it's cracked up to be.

I picked up the M6II on a whim...something to play with and see if I could get used to an EVF. Turns out it's not horrible, go figure. ;) I struggle with touch & drag. it sounds good, but I'm a left eye shooter and struggle getting my thumb on the screen to move without taking my eye away from the viewfinder. I keep trying, and I hope the larger R5 makes it easier to move. If not I get my joystick controller back and I'm perfectly fine with that. The edge to edge is nice for sure.

I really do hope now that a 5DV doesn't materialize...because I don't know if I'd be able to resist even if I have an R5 already. :LOL:
 

davidhfe

EOS RP
CR Pro
Sep 9, 2015
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I only speak for me obviously but as a former 7D2 shooter I don't understand why people dwell on the crop bodies for wildlife. Aside from the extra reach (which I overcame using the 1.4X) I don't see the attraction. When I head out the door birding (which is almost what I do exclusively) I'm carrying the 5D4 or EOS-R.

They are superior than the 7D2 in every single way except FPS.

YMMV..

Reach, FPS (and cost!) are significant advantages though! I'm not a birder, but for sports I found a significant difference when shooting at 10 fps vs the 7 of my 5D4. Very excited to move to a 12/20fps body.
 

HenryL

EOS R5
CR Pro
Apr 1, 2020
271
675
I only speak for me obviously but as a former 7D2 shooter I don't understand why people dwell on the crop bodies for wildlife. Aside from the extra reach (which I overcame using the 1.4X) I don't see the attraction. When I head out the door birding (which is almost what I do exclusively) I'm carrying the 5D4 or EOS-R.

They are superior than the 7D2 in every single way except FPS.

YMMV..
I can't speak to the R, but the 5D4 relegated my 7D2 to backup (closet) status as well while I had both. AF and tracking are both superior (by a lot) on the 5D4, and even though it netted fewer "pixels on target" than the crop, the final output was better IMHO. Damn, y'all makin' me get all misty over selling my baby...:cry:. Did you hear that Canon and B&H? Save me save me get my R5 out the door.:ROFLMAO:
 

Keith_Reeder

I really don't mind offending trolls.
Feb 8, 2014
957
469
61
Blyth, NE England
Aside from the extra reach (which I overcame using the 1.4X) I don't see the attraction.
I sometimes run out of reach with a 500mm f/4 Mk II mounted to my 7D Mk II via my 2x converter - 1600mm of effective reach before taking cropping/Pixels Per Duck into account.

There's no such thing as too much reach, and anything which helps obviate being focal length challenged is welcome to me.