Canon is gearing up for a big 2020 [CR2]

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
990
484
I am not one of them, but there are folks for whom the 7D line is the best camera choice there is, as best as I can tell. They know who they are. If they want something newer than the Mark II, they need to decide on their priorities and decide what compromises are worth it to get something else they want. For right now, it seems to me that the best solution for most of these folks is to use the 7D II until it breaks, and then buy another one (new, used, refurb). To get other features they want and to preserve the 7D II as long as possible, maybe a second camera with those features would be a good choice for their non-bird-or-sports-or-whatever shooting.
Most sports shooters use more than one body. I usually have a 70-200/2.8 on my 7D Mark II and a 5D Mark IV with a wider lens, either a 17-40/4, 24-70/2.8, or 24-105/4. At the wider fields of view, one can get by with slower shutter speeds. With FF cameras, one can also get by at higher ISOs if blowing out highlights (such as stadium lighting) is not a concern. My 7D Mark II shutter count is starting to climb into the "well past rated shutter life" zone, and I am beginning to keep my eyes open for low mileage used 7D Mark II bodies at significantly lower than new prices.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
990
484
That's my point, I don't think they are abandoning them at all!

The m6II can already track with a level comparable to the 7dii, and can put more pixels on target. However the form factor isn't the best, and it could use more buffer. I think we will see an r-mount prosumer camera in aps-c. I do not think they will have dual cards and/or 1dx level weatherproofing.

However the other pro features in the 7dii (outside of the speed/focus) will probably only show up only in full frame cameras. Those mirrorless cameras will be able to go into a crop mode similar to the m6ii that will probably surpass the speed that the aps-c cameras can capture, while also putting more pixels on target. There might even be multiple crop modes that get progressively faster.

In short, I think 8-10fps will be the minimum of any future camera sensors, and much faster when in crop modes. The niche that the 7dii filled that other cameras could not match got much smaller, so that's why it went away.
If it does not have 1D X level weatherproofing and shutter ratings well beyond the 120,000 actuation rating of the 90D, then it is not a 7D Mark II level camera. A lot of 7D Mark II users continued to choose it over the 80D (which is a better generalists camera at a lower price) precisely because of its tough build.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
990
484
I really hope that whatever they announce, it is ready soon after in February. I know there is a lot of 7D love in here, but I had to relegate mine to the storage box for the football game I shot Friday night. The light was decent, but required me shooting at ISO 10k, which is just not really useable on a 7Dii for me. I ended up with the 1DXii on the 400mm and the R on my 200mm f/2--which is currently one of my favorite combinations. The fps on the R was really not great, but even slow fps with subject in focus and low noise beats 10fps images that are unusable.

I love my 7Dii when there is a lot of light, but in reality I only get that in less than 10% of my venues.

Looking forward to another full frame body with a decent fps in servo mode.
I must be lucky. I can shoot most of my venues, which are impoverished schools in a southern state that the rest of the country looks down their nose at, with ISO 3200, f/2.8, and get 1/800 or faster.

Then again, a 400/2.8 and 200/2 don't make sense for what I can make shooting in those venues.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
990
484
Yes, those WDs are pretty nifty. I'm going a lot more expensive; I'm buying a home NAS, but I intend to back it up with Western Digital 4TB units--I bought a bunch on sale the other day for $100 apiece.
B&H had the 6TB WD Elements a couple of months ago for $110 each.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
990
484
Oh goodness, PLEASE start using the RAW images.....
:)

I mean, sure, you should always try to get it right in camera, but in the 'heat of battle' quite often, you miss this or that, and I'd hate to think I"d lost a really great shot because some settings were off.....too much fo jpeg resurrection, but could easily be fixed with a RAW work flow.

And like you said, these days, drive space is cheap, a commodity really.

Just my $0.02,

cayenne
It really depends on what you're shooting.

In a controlled studio environment with total control of the lighting, raw makes much less of a difference. You should be able to set your lights to get what you want with JPEG, both in terms of exposure, lighting ratios, and color. If you are a high volume shooter, such as a school photographer, then the time savings from using jpeg are immense.

In any kind of mixed lighting scenario, or in less than full spectrum light environments, raw is essential for total control of color.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
990
484
But what would happen if they DID decide to throw some love in the EF-M direction? Would they finally break down and decide--"let's make a fatter lens so it doesn't have to be so slow"? Or would they stick with a restriction that has no <I>engineering</I> (or even marketing) reason that I can see?
The reason you don't see Canon's reason for the size of EF-M lenses is because you do not live in Japan and other parts of Asia, which is where the M series is selling in high numbers.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
990
484
They already do this in the M6II, giving us a preview of what might be to come. The 30fps mode crops the sensor about 20% and reduces the color space from 14 to 12 bits. But by doing that it more than doubles the fps, and still retains the tracking ability.

I can only imagine what that might be like on the high megapixel camera or the presumed R mark ii down the road - if the high mp does 7-10 fps (which i think it will, to be in the ballpark of the a7iv) then in that mode it would presumably deliver 15-20 fps at 40+ megapixels. The future R would probably be 30 megapixels cropped (guessing it would be in the 40-45 when uncropped, going up about 22%, just like the last few times).
Exciting times!
If the crop area is APS-C sized, then it would take a 77 MP FF sensor to give 30 MP in crop mode.
 
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criscokkat

EOS RP
Sep 26, 2017
266
232
Madison, WI
Honestly I don't think that is too far out of the realm of possibility. Of course, like the a7IV it'll be in the 3500-4000 dollar range, which as you said does put it in a much more expensive bracket.

I also don't know how weatherproof it will be. Canon has not released a flip out screen camera with a very high level of waterproofing. I'm not sure how feasible it is or not. But I can almost guarantee the marketers who run the numbers expect a flip out screen model to sell much better a screen built into the body.
If it does not have 1D X level weatherproofing and shutter ratings well beyond the 120,000 actuation rating of the 90D, then it is not a 7D Mark II level camera. A lot of 7D Mark II users continued to choose it over the 80D (which is a better generalists camera at a lower price) precisely because of its tough build.
Of course we don't know how weatherproof any of the near term R mount higher speed cameras will be. Canon has not released a flip out screen camera with a very high level of waterproofing. I'm not sure how feasible it is or not. But I can almost guarantee the marketers who run the numbers expect a flip out screen model to sell much better a screen built into the body. They can make it weather resistant alike the current R and maybe improve on it some, but it'll be much harder to hit a 1dx level. I'm sure they will release an R mount 1dx level camera eventually with that sort of weatherproofing, but that of course will be priced much much higher.
 

rbielefeld

EOS T7i
Apr 22, 2015
76
130
So given you lose fps with adapted glass, what would you say the fps achieived is?
I have grossly timed fps with various Canon lenses and it is between 10 and 15 fps. Not at all slow, and I never feel like I miss anything I could have had because of the drop in fps. I mean, 20 fps with my Sony lenses is almost excessive for all be the fastest action I encounter.
 
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SteveC

M50 & T6i
Sep 3, 2019
348
197
The reason you don't see Canon's reason for the size of EF-M lenses is because you do not live in Japan and other parts of Asia, which is where the M series is selling in high numbers.
Telling me the system is popular as-is (and I am glad of that, even if it's somewhere else) doesn't answer my point.
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,150
385
Telling me the system is popular as-is (and I am glad of that, even if it's somewhere else) doesn't answer my point.
Well, you can adapt EF lenses to an EF-M camera, but you can't adapt EF-M lenses to an EF camera. A question is whether there is a worthwhile market for larger, faster, more expensive lenses that can only be used on M cameras, when an owner of both EF and M cameras can swap EF Lenses back and forth. Canon seems to have its doubts.
 
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SteveC

M50 & T6i
Sep 3, 2019
348
197
A question is whether there is a worthwhile market for larger, faster, more expensive lenses that can only be used on M cameras, when an owner of both EF and M cameras can swap EF Lenses back and forth. Canon seems to have its doubts.
Yes, they certainly do at this time. Or maybe, they don't have doubts long term but today the market isn't ready for it.

I'm engaging in blatant speculation here, but:

I think maybe things will look different when mirrorless dominates the market, say ten years down the road. At that point APS-C enthusiast level people will likely be using the M mount far more than they do now (it's mostly considered "kid stuff" today though that's changing with the M6 Mk II); at that point Canon could do a market differentiation something like--"beginner lenses" (what they have now) and "advanced lenses" (of larger diameter and length). We might start to see them putting out what is...for example...basically a 100-400 III L, upgrade to the current 100-400 I am looking forward to earning some day...but it is an advanced M mount lens. But they wouldn't do that unless they saw that most of the market for such a lens had gone M mount. THAT, of course, would never happen if it weren't for the adapter giving them a way to ease people into the M mount. IF they want enthusiast APS-C people (as opposed to newbies) eventually using the M mount, that's certainly the way to make it easy for them.

Whether they'll eventually do as I'm suggesting and make a suite of high end EF-M lenses is another question. One thing that suggests they won't, is they'd have to replace an EF lens they want to discontinue with BOTH an RF and EF-M version. We might all still be using adapters 20 years from now (and not just to use "old stuff").

Meanwhile, I'm trying to plan ahead. There's an RF camera in my future, as well as EF-M. As such I'm not in the market for any EF-S lenses (even though they will at least function on the RF mount). It's either a dinky lens for the M, or it's a full EF that I will be able to use on both cameras. (After I get an RF camera, I'll think about RF lenses...)
 

flip314

EOS RP
Sep 26, 2018
240
347
I think maybe things will look different when mirrorless dominates the market, say ten years down the road. At that point APS-C enthusiast level people will likely be using the M mount far more than they do now (it's mostly considered "kid stuff" today though that's changing with the M6 Mk II); at that point Canon could do a market differentiation something like--"beginner lenses" (what they have now) and "advanced lenses" (of larger diameter and length). We might start to see them putting out what is...for example...basically a 100-400 III L, upgrade to the current 100-400 I am looking forward to earning some day...but it is an advanced M mount lens. But they wouldn't do that unless they saw that most of the market for such a lens had gone M mount. THAT, of course, would never happen if it weren't for the adapter giving them a way to ease people into the M mount. IF they want enthusiast APS-C people (as opposed to newbies) eventually using the M mount, that's certainly the way to make it easy for them.
It seems like Canon sees a future where FF mirrorless is affordable to advanced enthusiasts. The RP is already virtually the same price as the 90D (though there are obvious feature advantages to the 90D). If the RP mark II comes out in 3 years and matches the 90D's frame rate etc, it could be game over for enthusiast APS-C Canon cameras.

I'll admit it's confusing whether Canon cares about having any kind of upgrade path from the M-series, either to better M lenses (possible) or to another system (seems pretty unlikely at this point).
 

SteveC

M50 & T6i
Sep 3, 2019
348
197
It seems like Canon sees a future where FF mirrorless is affordable to advanced enthusiasts. The RP is already virtually the same price as the 90D (though there are obvious feature advantages to the 90D). If the RP mark II comes out in 3 years and matches the 90D's frame rate etc, it could be game over for enthusiast APS-C Canon cameras.

I'll admit it's confusing whether Canon cares about having any kind of upgrade path from the M-series, either to better M lenses (possible) or to another system (seems pretty unlikely at this point).
That's an aspect I (and I think many others) hadn't considered...an actual reduction in the cost of full frame mirrorless (vs full frame DSLR). A lot of people here seem to want an R mount APSC, but if a hi-res full frame comes out and it's relatively cheap, that may be moot. With some work Canon could provided a faster crop mode though someone pointed out earlier that it still has to read the width of the sensor out (but not the height) so it won't be as fast as the M6 Mk II. But maybe it'll be fast enough to satisfy the birders.
 

transpo1

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 12, 2011
747
95
May is a long time to sustain my excitement. February is more like it. I'd be tempted by the EOS R if it were $1000 dollars, which is what it's worth to me as a first gen camera. The last time I bought a Canon first gen was the original EOS-M, which was a good camera and lasted a very long time, but which also had major deficiencies (autofocus). I'll wait for a second or third gen version of the EOS R when they can cram more efficient (and uncropped) 4K video into it and bring the beloved scroll wheel back, which is sadly missing from the latest releases.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
990
484
I didn't go with those, because they need a wall wart to function. (For those who don't mind that, it sounds like it was a good deal.)
I no longer use spinning disks for "portable" data storage. Flash memory has become cheap enough for my portable needs.
 

SteveC

M50 & T6i
Sep 3, 2019
348
197
I no longer use spinning disks for "portable" data storage. Flash memory has become cheap enough for my portable needs.
Basically, I intend to use these for offsite backup. I let the backup run overnight, then bring the disk to work and stick it in a desk drawer. (I don't plan to take it into the field with me, or anything like that.) True, I could do that with a wall wart unit, but I can readily plug one of these into any box anywhere and not have to hunt down the wall wart.

It's a personal preference thing; as I said if you don't mind wall warts for your personal use case, that would have been a fantastic deal.