Canon, King in SLR Cameras, Makes Inroads Into Mirrorless

Dholai

EOS T7i
Feb 5, 2014
53
4
The way I understand it... it is simple.

Just the way canon captured the SLR/dSLR market , they are going to go full throttle to be the market leader in MILC. Next few years, we will see a lot of new, exciting releases from Canon in this segment to solidify there major market share and then, they will sit back and relax !
No matter how much you all whine then regarding Canon's then outdated products, they will still remain the market leader in this segment!
Nice strategy!
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,942
490
scyrene said:
ahsanford said:
No mirror = no mirror slap, one less thing that can fail, make noise, limit fps, etc.
Not wishing to pick a fight with you, but this is something that bugs me. Mirrorless cameras take away, but also insert components compared to DSLRs - and do we have any data that an EVF is less likely to fail (or has a longer average working lifespan) than a mirror assembly? The assumption I see repeatedly is that mechanical stuff fails more than electronic, but that doesn't chime with my anedotal experiences.
Fair. Canon rates it's shutter actuations but not its mirror actuations, correct?

I have a common sense argument that presently lacks data. But that common sense is standing on fairly solid ground here, yeah? How often do we hear of Canon products blowing a board, LCDs failing, etc. vs. mechanical wear and tear issues we often see?

Would love to have Uncle Rog from LR crash this thread right now as he lives this every day. I'm curious to hear the answer!

- A
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,048
317
Vancouver, BC
LDS said:
scyrene said:
ahsanford said:
  • No mirror = no mirror slap, one less thing that can fail, make noise, limit fps, etc.


  • Not wishing to pick a fight with you, but this is something that bugs me. Mirrorless cameras take away, but also insert components compared to DSLRs - and do we have any data that an EVF is less likely to fail (or has a longer average working lifespan) than a mirror assembly? The assumption I see repeatedly is that mechanical stuff fails more than electronic, but that doesn't chime with my anedotal experiences.


  • Don't believe an OLED display will last as long as a mirror, and even a mechanical shutter. I don't believe thirty years old or more mirrorless will still work - but I guess that's not an issue for many. Mechanical stuff built with excellent materials, engineering, and workmanship may last decades, if not wore out. Many electronic components may decay and stop working earlier.
Here's the thing.

How many people have taken enough photos on their Canon to kill the mirror or shutter? How many of those people don't feel they've gotten their money's worth?

We could probably ask the same thing of OLED EVFs. One thing to possibly consider is that OLEDs change characteristics over their life and suffer burn in. But again, to probably will never be noticeable.

It's fun to bandy around hypotheticals, but the truth is that most people never come close to reaching the life of these.
 

reef58

EOS 80D
Apr 16, 2016
134
4
rrcphoto said:
fussy III said:
JohanCruyff said:
this is a quantum leap for canon in the entry level camera department.
A quantum leap it is when we consider the leaps that Canon has been making in the past years. But no quantum leap it is by anyone else's standards. And are those leaps by Canon really high enough to ever lead anywhere or does the company merely pretend it wishes to get somewhere with this? I have my doubts.
show me anyone else that has done such a feature leap in their entry level models from release to release. M100 to M50. please go ahead.

Sony hasn't bothered to update their entry level A5100 in years. Fuji just gives the A series a warm makeover.

On the DSLR front, it's always been more of the same old same old.

Panasonic quit making entry level cameras. Olympus every now and then comes out with E-PL series camera that is still stripped down from their bigger brothers.
My Olympus EM10mk2 is loaded with features at a similar price to the M50. That being said I cannot figure out how to use them and really don't like the camera, so I guess there is more to life than features. To be fair I probably haven't given it a proper chance, but i am constantly changing the exposure from accidentally hitting the knobs. When Canon comes out with the m5ii I may sell the Olympus.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
7,942
490
reef58 said:
My Olympus EM10mk2 is loaded with features at a similar price to the M50. That being said I cannot figure out how to use them and really don't like the camera, so I guess there is more to life than features. To be fair I probably haven't given it a proper chance, but i am constantly changing the exposure from accidentally hitting the knobs. When Canon comes out with the m5ii I may sell the Olympus.
Perhaps the M5 II will solve that pesky 'you can have 4K OR you have can DPAF' enigma the M50 could not overcome.

Have the CPU/EE design folks here rendered a verdict on that with the M50? Is it BS product-nerfing / price-protection or is there a legit added cost necessary to pull that off? Doesn't the 5D4 pull that off with a single DIGIC 6, or does it also defeat the DPAF with 4K? (Educate me, please, video capture is a technical language I do not speak.)

- A
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
reef58 said:
rrcphoto said:
fussy III said:
JohanCruyff said:
this is a quantum leap for canon in the entry level camera department.
A quantum leap it is when we consider the leaps that Canon has been making in the past years. But no quantum leap it is by anyone else's standards. And are those leaps by Canon really high enough to ever lead anywhere or does the company merely pretend it wishes to get somewhere with this? I have my doubts.
show me anyone else that has done such a feature leap in their entry level models from release to release. M100 to M50. please go ahead.

Sony hasn't bothered to update their entry level A5100 in years. Fuji just gives the A series a warm makeover.

On the DSLR front, it's always been more of the same old same old.

Panasonic quit making entry level cameras. Olympus every now and then comes out with E-PL series camera that is still stripped down from their bigger brothers.
My Olympus EM10mk2 is loaded with features at a similar price to the M50.
GOod example. I'd argue that the EM-10 Mark II isn't as much of a leap from an EM-10 classic though
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
ahsanford said:
reef58 said:
My Olympus EM10mk2 is loaded with features at a similar price to the M50. That being said I cannot figure out how to use them and really don't like the camera, so I guess there is more to life than features. To be fair I probably haven't given it a proper chance, but i am constantly changing the exposure from accidentally hitting the knobs. When Canon comes out with the m5ii I may sell the Olympus.
Perhaps the M5 II will solve that pesky 'you can have 4K OR you have can DPAF' enigma the M50 could not overcome.

Have the CPU/EE design folks here rendered a verdict on that with the M50? Is it BS product-nerfing / price-protection or is there a legit added cost necessary to pull that off? Doesn't the 5D4 pull that off with a single DIGIC 6, or does it also defeat the DPAF with 4K? (Educate me, please, video capture is a technical language I do not speak.)

- A
it's really hard to say. with contrast detect they can look at hte frames themselves.
with DPAF they have to switch off the sensor flip it into AF read mode, take readings, flip it back and do the exposure and at the same time calculate AF and reposition the lens.

it could be battery life. the thing was down to 235 shots on the LP-E12, so the M5 Mark II has a bigger battery, and a true 4K camera mirrorless should have a grip for more battery ommph.
 

bhf3737

---
Sep 9, 2015
386
271
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
LDS said:
scyrene said:
ahsanford said:
  • No mirror = no mirror slap, one less thing that can fail, make noise, limit fps, etc.


  • Not wishing to pick a fight with you, but this is something that bugs me. Mirrorless cameras take away, but also insert components compared to DSLRs - and do we have any data that an EVF is less likely to fail (or has a longer average working lifespan) than a mirror assembly? The assumption I see repeatedly is that mechanical stuff fails more than electronic, but that doesn't chime with my anedotal experiences.


  • Don't believe an OLED display will last as long as a mirror, and even a mechanical shutter. I don't believe thirty years old or more mirrorless will still work - but I guess that's not an issue for many. Mechanical stuff built with excellent materials, engineering, and workmanship may last decades, if not wore out. Many electronic components may decay and stop working earlier.
I guess both arguments are correct! When designing electro-mechanical devices, a common assumption has been that the mean-time-to-failure (MTTF) of mechanical parts is about 10 times less than electronic parts. That is, mechanical parts fail earlier. Another principle is that reliability of the whole system - with no redundancy - is dominated by (i.e. lesser than) the reliability of the "loose end" component.
In old film SLR cameras, everything was mechanical and components with faster wear out, e.g. shutter mechanism, were bringing the system down.
In current DSLRs, statistically speaking, mechanical components are failing more frequently than the electronic parts.
In mirrorless cameras, with close to zero mechanical parts, currently, the loose-end is the OLED screen and viewfinder. They are used because of lesser power consumption than LCD. But OLED parts have average MTTF of 4-5 years which is less than half of the rest of the components. Also they suffer from color degradation, so as time goes by, the screen becomes dimmer and blue color turns to become darker. So what-you-see-is-what-you-get, which is a strong argument used by mirrorless diehards, does not hold for older cameras a few years down the road. It also has negative impact on resale value of older mirrorless cameras.
 

dak723

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
434
scyrene said:
ahsanford said:
  • No mirror = no mirror slap, one less thing that can fail, make noise, limit fps, etc.


  • Not wishing to pick a fight with you, but this is something that bugs me. Mirrorless cameras take away, but also insert components compared to DSLRs - and do we have any data that an EVF is less likely to fail (or has a longer average working lifespan) than a mirror assembly? The assumption I see repeatedly is that mechanical stuff fails more than electronic, but that doesn't chime with my anedotal experiences.


  • Nor mine. Electronics that I have owned have failed far earlier than mechanical things. My Canon Rebel lasted 9 years - which I thought was quite remarkable! My old SLR, on the other hand, worked for 30 years before I sold it at a garage sale.
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
bhf3737 said:
LDS said:
scyrene said:
ahsanford said:
  • No mirror = no mirror slap, one less thing that can fail, make noise, limit fps, etc.


  • Not wishing to pick a fight with you, but this is something that bugs me. Mirrorless cameras take away, but also insert components compared to DSLRs - and do we have any data that an EVF is less likely to fail (or has a longer average working lifespan) than a mirror assembly? The assumption I see repeatedly is that mechanical stuff fails more than electronic, but that doesn't chime with my anedotal experiences.


  • Don't believe an OLED display will last as long as a mirror, and even a mechanical shutter. I don't believe thirty years old or more mirrorless will still work - but I guess that's not an issue for many. Mechanical stuff built with excellent materials, engineering, and workmanship may last decades, if not wore out. Many electronic components may decay and stop working earlier.
I guess both arguments are correct! When designing electro-mechanical devices, a common assumption has been that the mean-time-to-failure (MTTF) of mechanical parts is about 10 times less than electronic parts.
that really depends on temperature.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
Jul 21, 2010
24,068
1,288
Wolfloid said:
"In fact, Canon is #2 globally in MILC".
Could you reference that? I read that they are behind Sony, Olympus and Fuji.
IglooEater said:
neuroanatomist said:
Wolfloid said:
Their mirrorless cameras are only number two in Japan, and certainly not globally.
In fact, Canon is #2 globally in MILC. In Japan, they are behind Olympus, whereas globally, Sony is the MILC market leader. But Canon still sells more FF ILC's than Sony.
I believe you, but I’d be curious to see the data. Would you mind linking it?
There's not one single reference for this sort of thing. Rather, you have to dig into the financial reports, summaries, and presentation transcripts of the various companies. Unit sales of MILCs look like something this:

Sony: FY2015 - ~1.4M units; FY2016 - ~1.4M units; FY2017 - ~1.75M units
Olympus: FY2015 - 510K units; FY2016 - 550K units; FY2017- 450K units
Canon: FY2015 - ~350K units; FY2016 - ~425K units; FY2017 - unknown, but Canon stated they increased y/y with double-digit growth

Of the three companies, only Olympus publishes actual unit sales data for MILCs. For Sony, overall ILC market share and total ILCs shipped (CIPA) can be used to estimate unit sales of MILCs (which =ILC for them). For Canon, estimates are based on prior statements modified by statements about annual growth. So, Canon is not too far ahead of Olympus (close enough that they may rade back and forth for the #2 spot), while both Canon and Olympus are far behind Sony for overall MILC market share.

As for the overall ILC market, Canon remains at ~50% of total market share.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,048
317
Vancouver, BC
neuroanatomist said:
Sony: FY2015 - ~1.4M units; FY2016 - ~1.4M units; FY2017 - ~1.75M units
Olympus: FY2015 - 510K units; FY2016 - 550K units; FY2017- 450K units
Canon: FY2015 - ~350K units; FY2016 - ~425K units; FY2017 - unknown, but Canon stated they increased y/y with double-digit growth
Wow, that's a big hit on ILC sales for Oly in FY2017 - in the 20% range. 20%-ish growth for Sony too, very healthy there.
 

tmroper

EOS 80D
Sep 22, 2016
144
45
mistaspeedy said:
"The Japanese market for interchangeable lens cameras recorded a 10.1% drop in sales for SLRs last year while mirrorless varieties soared 29.2%"

That's the only way you can get Canon to move.... they smelled the money and want their share of it... totally understandable.
Canon's been participating in the mirror-less market for a number of years now, capturing a share of the growth along the way. They've even been driving some of the growth. They just have to keep going and inovvating along with the others. And "innovation" does include pricing.
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
mistaspeedy said:
"The Japanese market for interchangeable lens cameras recorded a 10.1% drop in sales for SLRs last year while mirrorless varieties soared 29.2%"

That's the only way you can get Canon to move.... they smelled the money and want their share of it... totally understandable.
yeah because canon obviously hasn't moved before in the domestic market for mirrorless...

 

IglooEater

EOS 6D MK II
Nov 15, 2014
903
0
neuroanatomist said:
Sony: FY2015 - ~1.4M units; FY2016 - ~1.4M units; FY2017 - ~1.75M units
Olympus: FY2015 - 510K units; FY2016 - 550K units; FY2017- 450K units
Canon: FY2015 - ~350K units; FY2016 - ~425K units; FY2017 - unknown, but Canon stated they increased y/y with double-digit growth
Thanks Neuro! I find these things very interesting.
 

transpo1

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 12, 2011
723
74
mistaspeedy said:
"The Japanese market for interchangeable lens cameras recorded a 10.1% drop in sales for SLRs last year while mirrorless varieties soared 29.2%"

That's the only way you can get Canon to move.... they smelled the money and want their share of it... totally understandable.
Yup. They finally realized what we 4Kers have been saying all along- cannibalize yourself or others will do it for you.
 

rrcphoto

EOS 5D MK IV
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
transpo1 said:
mistaspeedy said:
"The Japanese market for interchangeable lens cameras recorded a 10.1% drop in sales for SLRs last year while mirrorless varieties soared 29.2%"

That's the only way you can get Canon to move.... they smelled the money and want their share of it... totally understandable.
Yup. They finally realized what we 4Kers have been saying all along- cannibalize yourself or others will do it for you.
sure that's why canon's been #2 for two years in a row in japan and well ahead of panasonic who's the darling of 4k and somewhere 4th or worse.
 

Quarkcharmed

EOS 5DMkIV
Feb 14, 2018
314
203
Australia
www.michaelborisenko.com
I wonder if Canon is ever going to enter the medium format market.

FF mirrorless is hard because of great Canon EF range. The range is big and it's somehow a curse for Canon, because mirrorless FF would need adapters plus possibly totally new lenses. And why would I switch from my DSLR to mirorrless when I have native EF lenses for my DSLR and the benefits of mirrorless aren't that big?

Medium format mirrorless will require new lenses anyway so it's not a risk for the EF lens lineup, and Canon will be able to make an adapter for EF so that some of the EF lenses will work fine without significant vignetting.
 

mistaspeedy

EOS RP
Apr 5, 2015
221
0
Many people want great photography AND video features. Any micro four thirds camera will fall short of the high standards set by APSC and full frame cameras for photography (goodbye Panasonic and Olympus). Since 8 megapixels is enough for 4K video, it is not too demanding for a smaller micro four thirds sensor and the accompanying glass to resolve that much resolution.

Canon medium format? The could make a huge 0.5x crop factor (2x width and 2x height of full frame) sensor, with some glass to match :)