Interview: Understanding the Canon EOS R

bhf3737

---
Sep 9, 2015
346
178
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
I don't believe you're up to date on the video quality achievable on mirrorless (and some DSLR) cameras.
You mentioned video "quality". So now you are knowledgeable on quality, too. Great. Which quality you are referring to?
From both objective quality (i.e. conformance to requirements, etc.) and subjective quality (i.e. fitness for use, etc.) perspectives:
Every video recorded by a ML/DSLR is either great or crap, as evaluated by spec sheets warriors.
But in reality, every video recorded by any ML/DSLR is crap!!
 
Reactions: Talys

canonmike

EOS T7i
Jan 5, 2013
82
35
Some good arguments. Personally, I'm looking fwd to actual hands on reviews once the R arrives in the stores and Canon users can take them out, shoot with them and give us their input about real world use. Shouldn't be much longer now.
 

sdz

EOS 80D
Sep 13, 2016
136
65
Pittsburgh, PA
Talking about sensor performance on these current generation full frame bodies seems a little like the car magazines talking about which sub-4-second 0-60 supercar is faster. Like what's the difference really between 3.74 and 3.79 seconds 0-60? Driver skill will be a much bigger factor, but either way they're both fast as blazes! Same with these sensors. I have no wants with the 5DIV sensor-wise. 30 MP is insane resolution for me, having been using DSLR's since they were 4 MP. I have no desire for more. Same with dynamic range, etc. High ISO performance with these things is insane, you can pull shadows up like madness creating images in conditions we could only dream of image years ago. All this measure-bating is silly. Is the Sony sensor technically better on paper? A lot of people say so, so I who am I to argue? But more importantly who cares? If you were racing down the track in a Koenigsegg CCR which you be upset that it wasn't as fast as a Bugatti Chiron? (emphasis added)
Some would indeed be upset. "I paid.....for the best...., and expect the best....."

Owning a camera that routinely takes high quality photos is sometimes not enough. When that camera is not good enough, then attention should fall on the person for whom 'good enough' is not 'good enough.'
 
Last edited:

takesome1

EOS 5Ds R II
Aug 23, 2013
1,448
80
I'll point out that similar comments were made about the EOS M at launch – late to the party and underdressed, so to speak. Nevertheless, the original M was a major domestic success for Canon (#2 in sales at full price, behind only a 2-gen old, deeply discounted Sony NEX), and the M line went on to be globally successful.

I also think the RF / EF-M incompatiblity is an issue. But we should keep in mind that Canon has actual data that informed their decision, e.g. the fraction of APS-C DSLR users who bought EF lenses prior to buying a FF DSLR, etc., and so from their perspective it may have been a non-issue.
You really would have to define "domestic".
At release you couldn't even buy it in the US.
There was speculation that the M would have bombed in the US and that is why it was released other places but not here.
The best move Canon made was to fire sale the original M at the end of sales cycle. It brought many reluctant buyers to the platform.

It wasn't the greatest release, but Canon did turn it around later.

To the point you were making. There has been far more positive fanfare with the R release, the M was sad. Hopefully this is an indication of how well the R will actually do since the M is doing well now. The R has a far better start.
 

Cochese

EOS T7i
Oct 22, 2014
78
29
Not necessarily. Even the RED Super35 4-perf shoots with a sensor size (24.89 x 18.66mm) which is only a tad larger than the area that EOS R reads for 4K and definitely smaller than the FF (36x24mm).Those expensive video lenses all can only cover the Super35 sensor size not the FF. I have not heard any pro video producer saying that he/she cannot get a wide enough shot because his/her camera does not have or cannot read FF sensor!! I have never seen pro video producers operate the camera from the front, either.
Operate the camera from the front?
Strictly speaking, I'm still referring to FF sensor having cameras and the ability to use the full wide angle lenses on them. Not people's personal and unreasonable expectations that all manufacturers must use the full sensor.
This whole topic is a bit amusing when people discuss this being a deal breaker on the Canon. Some of those some people are ones who'll praise other cameras as being the best "vlogging" set up because "x" reason. Despite them being APS-C or smaller. Speaking of, that is probably what you're referring to as "from the front."
We're not talking about people using a Red or the like. Strictly speaking, I'm not even referring to people in the professional fields on this one. Mainly Vloggers.
 

Cochese

EOS T7i
Oct 22, 2014
78
29
I'm not sure that I'd have picked these two as "innovative" features.
- regarding the shutter : that will only be of value for a few years until mechanical shutters disappear altogether from our cameras (thanks to fast enough electronic shutters). So Canon will have, just like anyone else, to find ways to make the sensor's coverglass resistant to damage at some point. .
Fun fact: if canon were to ever feel the need to get rid of the shutters for actually taking the photo, they could still just as easily, if not more so, implement a shutter like guard within the camera that only works when the lens is off. Not sure why you think this feature has to be tied directly to it being the shutter. Especially if they believe it is the best way to keep it safe.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,040
309
Vancouver, BC
Totally agree, CANON isn't even on par with the current DLSR market, why would we expect them to all of a sudden stand up and be noticed in the mirrorless market.
Factually, that's just silly, because Canon isn't just "even on par with the current DSLR market", they're the undisputed king of the DSLR market. It isn't even close. But anyways, assuming that you actually mean that you think that Canon's cameras aren't on par, and I presume you mean on features or design, there are only two possibilities:

1. That Canon makes terrible, subpar cameras, but most camera buyers are so dumb that year after year, Canon is their overwhelming choice.

2. That year after year, consumers buy Canon cameras because of a combination of design priorities, featureset, value, and marketing.

It's ok that your feature and design priorities are different than mine. Just recognize that your priorities don't align with the market, and that Canon cares more about the market as a whole than you.
 
Reactions: nchoh and meywd

Talys

Canon 6DII
Feb 16, 2017
2,040
309
Vancouver, BC
Fun fact: if canon were to ever feel the need to get rid of the shutters for actually taking the photo, they could still just as easily, if not more so, implement a shutter like guard within the camera that only works when the lens is off. Not sure why you think this feature has to be tied directly to it being the shutter. Especially if they believe it is the best way to keep it safe.
A Sony product champion once told me that the sensors are very durable and unlikely to be damaged, in comparison with the shutters, which are quite fragile and very easy to damage. In the Sony cameras, they are serviced as a single unit, so if you damage one, you replace both, hence their decision to open the shutter during a lens swap.

It may be a logical way to minimize repairs but as a practical matter, I absolutely hate it. The shutter is exposed and so close to the lens mount that there is no protection to it from dust. The whole thing is a giant magnet for everything out there, lens swaps become the last thing on Earth I want to do when out in nature, especially somewhere with sand.
 

MayaTlab

EOS 80D
Oct 6, 2015
166
56
Fun fact: if canon were to ever feel the need to get rid of the shutters for actually taking the photo, they could still just as easily, if not more so, implement a shutter like guard within the camera that only works when the lens is off. Not sure why you think this feature has to be tied directly to it being the shutter. Especially if they believe it is the best way to keep it safe.
Do you really think that Canon, the stingiest manufacturer of them all, would bother taking up valuable internal real estate place and incur additional manufacturing costs to do that ?

It may be a logical way to minimize repairs but as a practical matter, I absolutely hate it. The shutter is exposed and so close to the lens mount that there is no protection to it from dust. The whole thing is a giant magnet for everything out there, lens swaps become the last thing on Earth I want to do when out in nature, especially somewhere with sand.
I'm not sure but I believe that when Nikon evaluated the D600's dust issue they realised that most of the dust came from the parts inside the camera, not from outside. So to keep dust off a sensor, it seems that the first step is to care about the camera's engineering itself.
Besides, once dust is inside the camera, it has a chance to land on the sensor at some point anyway.
The big particles aren't that worrying most of the time as the dust reduction mechanism can take care of it. It's more the smaller particles, that can remain attached via static that are a PITA.
Personally I care less about whether the sensor or the shutter is exposed than about how the camera's mechanical parts, dust reduction mechanism and filter stacks are designed (for example, m43 cameras have a very thick filter stack, designed to keep the few dust particles the dust reduction mechanism can't take care of, far enough from the sensor to be a non-problem), and whether I can easily clean it or not (filter stack coating hardness for example).

Canon must have very good reasons for having followed that path for now, but they're the only ones doing it, so it probably is a solution with significant trade-offs rather than something unequivocally better.
 

transpo1

EOS 7D MK II
Jan 12, 2011
662
52
You mentioned video "quality". So now you are knowledgeable on quality, too. Great. Which quality you are referring to?
From both objective quality (i.e. conformance to requirements, etc.) and subjective quality (i.e. fitness for use, etc.) perspectives:
Every video recorded by a ML/DSLR is either great or crap, as evaluated by spec sheets warriors.
But in reality, every video recorded by any ML/DSLR is crap!!
Well, I think you’ve shown your bias against MILC/DSLR cameras so there’s no point trying to convince you otherwise or even answering your question.
 

Quirkz

EOS T7i
Oct 30, 2014
78
14
There was speculation that the M would have bombed in the US and that is why it was released other places but not here.
The best move Canon made was to fire sale the original M at the end of sales cycle. It brought many reluctant buyers to the platform.

It wasn't the greatest release, but Canon did turn it around later.
It always surprises me how much negativity the M had. I loved my m, and got some wonderful images from it. Destroyed the Fuji x100 I had been using prior for image quality and AF accuracy and general performance. All pocketable with the 22mm.

Yes, I got it in the fire sale, and may not have purchased otherwise - but it exceeded my expectations given the forum and net ranting about it. I also traded it in last year for an m5, and considering I kept the 22mm, got back most of what I spent on it. Unlike the much newer Sony a7s I also traded in. That one I did not love so much :)
 

JonSnow

EOS 80D
Sep 10, 2018
145
85
Funny how some people think a statement of relevant facts constitutes a diversion.

Just saying yes Canon delivers products with features and performance that the majority of buyers find desirable is not possible for some people.

"I wish Sony had an extensive, more affordable lens lineup, a more intuitive user interface and better weather sealing,"...not possible to say for some.

Or at least be open minded that their personal desires may not represent those of the majority. Nope…they need to continually harp on base ISO DR and 4K video specifications. It is a habitual reflex for some.

Some people don´t see all the shortcomings in Canon cameras but sure some other people here won´t acknowledge benefits either (some may do with grinding teeth).

And it´s always the same arguments from both sides...for 6, maybe 7 years. They all claim they are not trolls ... LOL
you don´t create multiple new accounts or post many similar threads on the same topic on a GEAR forum when you are not a TROLL.

:p
when the shoe fits..... exactly one of the persons i was talking about.

this is about canon and i am a canon user ... but hey... mentioning sony is a reflex from you guys.

and when they have no arguments for their idiocy they claim others trolls.

my points are valid there is no need for you to spend another 2 minutes of your life defending canon.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,126
311
when the shoe fits..... exactly one of the persons i was talking about.

this is about canon and i am a canon user ... but hey... mentioning sony is a reflex from you guys.

and when they have no arguments for their idiocy they claim others trolls.

my points are valid there is no need for you to spend another 2 minutes of your life defending canon.
I don't think there is a person on this forum who would not want Canon sensors to have the same capability as Sony sensors - IMO they would be dumb not to.
However, and this is the point you (and a few others) fail to understand, there is a world of difference between saying 'I want a better sensor from Canon' and extrapolating to say that Canon have not done it because they are incompetent, don't understand the camera market, don't know how to design sensors, or want to protect segmentation of their precious video cameras/1D/5D series. You will see that most criticism comes when they make those extrapolations

They also fail to understand that every company (even Canon, shock! horror!) has a limit to resources (fincancial and otherwise) on R&D so they need to agree priorities. And I think it is fair to say that Canon has done a damned good job in prioritising those areas that have people buying their gear no matter what shortfalls the naysayers think.
Sony seem to think it is more important to put 1080p/120 instead of a useable touch screen, or full weathersealing, or good ergonomics or a host of other things.
I would love a Sony sensor in a Canon body but Canon has a corporate decision to design their own sensors and I don't mind that compromise, and there seem to be a lot of others who agree.
 
Reactions: navastronia