Is the Canon EOS RP the next camera up?

dak723

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
433
I understand identifying with the brand you shoot with and cheering it on or whatever, but dang things just get nasty when reality is ignored at the expense of justifying “your” brand. This is nasty, fugly thread.

I don’t care what Canon’s rumored to be doing, but if they’re up to anything other than creating a far more impressive FF mirrorless camera than the EOS R, they’re in big trouble. We can pretend hat the EOS R is anything we want to—but to Canon, it has got to be an internal embarrassment. The result of not taking FF mirrorless seriously, decades of hubris, and finally getting run over by every other manufacturer selling the same kind of product (including one that hasn’t even released their first FF MILC yet).

To make excuses or come up with alternative facts to support the EOS R as a misunderstood success is the worst thing you can do if you’re a true Canon fan. This, right now, should be the moment you stop making excuses for Canon and demand that they release something that is unquestionably better than the competition.. ..
Thanks for the sermon. Regardless of what cameras one like or doesn't, one shouldn't make up complete bullcrap...such as:

"We can pretend that the EOS R is anything we want to—but to Canon, it has got to be an internal embarrassment."
or,
"The result of not taking FF mirrorless seriously, decades of hubris, and finally getting run over by every other manufacturer selling the same kind of product."
or,
"stop making excuses for Canon and demand that they release something that is unquestionably better than the competition."

Having used the R - and having read some reviews from reliable reviewers such as Dustin Abbott, Steve Huff and others, there is no reason for Canon to be "internally embarassed." All signs point to the fact that they are quite proud of the new system they are creating (and rightfully so, in my opinion). Most photographers understand that the lenses are the key to any photo system, and Canon seems poised to create an RF line that will be as fine or finer than their already excellent EF lenses. Many reviewers agree that Canon color is industry leading, and the ergonomics, menus, EVF, touch screen (and the fact that is it fully articulating) are also better than most of the mirrorless FF offerings. So, "getting run over" can probably be re-interpreted as " I didn''t get what I want or what I think is important."

The fact that they are the only mirrorless brand that came up with a sensor protection screen tells me that they have taken the design of their new mirrorless line VERY seriously. The fact that they have come up with a new control ring, and, perhaps even more importantly, adapters that give additional functionality to EF lens users, tells me they have taken FF mirrorless VERY seriously.

And "demanding" that Canon release something that is unquestionably better than the competition," is so obviously unrealistic, that is needs llittle comment. I suppose if Canon had far more R&D money than the other brands - and the other brands didn't have patents - that it might be possible. But neither of those things are true, so it seems far more reasonable to assume that each brand will have some things they do better and some not as well as their competition.

If those particular aspects of a camera and photo system that Canon does really well or better aren't important to you, then you should choose a brand that does meet your needs. It's that simple.
 

3kramd5

EOS 5D MK IV
Mar 2, 2012
2,761
213
Most photographers understand that the lenses are the key to any photo system,
I wouldn’t say they’re “the key.” They represent a key part no doubt. Light is often neglected in that equation. I’m surprised more camera makers haven’t developed lighting beyond a few speedlights, or partnered with specialists likes Hasselblad has with Broncolor.

If I could wirelessly drive my profotos from the camera rather than with a $450 trigger, I’d be very happy.
 
Oct 31, 2016
271
137
i like rather see canon be somewhat where all other, than being superior and verge of bankrupt :p
Sony and Panasonic isn't going to bankrupt. Imaging is a small segment in what they do. Sony sensor division is big. They make sensor for Nikon, Panasonic, EVF, and smart phones.

I'm pretty sure they can be superior without verge of bankrupt.
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 28, 2015
2,896
484
Irving, Texas
Sony and Panasonic isn't going to bankrupt. Imaging is a small segment in what they do. Sony sensor division is big. They make sensor for Nikon, Panasonic, EVF, and smart phones.

I'm pretty sure they can be superior without verge of bankrupt.
Actually, Panasonic's camera division is in big trouble. It isn't profitable at all. Don't confuse the overall profitability of a diverse manufacturing conglomerate with a division of that company. Panasonic isn't going to keep throwing money down a bottomless hole forever. Panasonic's overall financial woes are well known.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/4882489366/panasonic-likely-to-scale-back-camera-division

Sony's camera division is suffering too.

Olympus and Pentax are in a race to see who closes the doors first.
 
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xps

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 19, 2011
854
16
Middle Europe
I´d be interested, in which downgrades Canon does on the Eos RP. An Eos R with the P in the name for 1600... Entry level.
Which of the features are the price loss worth. My function bar? 4 fps? 20MP?
What do yu think?
 

Pape

EOS T7i
Dec 31, 2018
86
15
nope its sport camera ,5div type camera is worst competitor of sport type expensive one.
Thats why R got only one card slot so it wont degrease RP sales.
consumer camera maybe M camera?
fun to see ,i hope i am wrong :)
26mpixel just doesnt sound anything else than sport camera if full frame
 
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Oct 31, 2016
271
137
Actually, Panasonic's camera division is in big trouble. It isn't profitable at all. Don't confuse the overall profitability of a diverse manufacturing conglomerate with a division of that company. Panasonic isn't going to keep throwing money down a bottomless hole forever. Panasonic's overall financial woes are well known.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/4882489366/panasonic-likely-to-scale-back-camera-division

Sony's camera division is suffering too.

Olympus and Pentax are in a race to see who closes the doors first.
You didn't post the follow up to that. Also from DPreview. They are doing internal organization structure.

Update:
In response to the Nikkei story, Panasonic has put out the following statement:
'The recent article featured on the Nikkei regarding Panasonic’s Imaging business was not announced by Panasonic and refers to a change in our internal organizational structure.
Integrating all consumer electronics divisions, our consumer Digital Imaging business will move under Panasonic Appliances Company and is not being dismantled.
The aim of this change is to further deepen our relationships with customers, strengthen our product capabilities, and continue to firmly develop and promote our business.'
While the company says the division is not being dismantled, it's interesting to note that the statement does not contest the characterization that it will be scaled back. The statement also appears to confirm that some of the recommendations of the report are being implemented.


Panasonic's camera business is under the appliances segment. The appliances segment has a profitable operating profit. It does not break down to camera division

Read more: https://photorumors.com/2018/05/13/...-olympus-nikon-kodak-and-canon/#ixzz5eOqPRK2A

Here is Canon report: "For interchangeable-lens cameras, the market in 2018 was down 10% to 10.3 million units. Our sales were down 9% to 5.04 million units..." "Additionally, we will also promote change in the distribution of internal resources, from development to production as well as sales & marketing."

Sony actually do well. Here is Q3 report. https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/son...nt-in-newly-released-q3-financial-statements/
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 28, 2015
2,896
484
Irving, Texas
You didn't post the follow up to that. Also from DPreview. They are doing internal organization structure.

Update:
In response to the Nikkei story, Panasonic has put out the following statement:
'The recent article featured on the Nikkei regarding Panasonic’s Imaging business was not announced by Panasonic and refers to a change in our internal organizational structure.
Integrating all consumer electronics divisions, our consumer Digital Imaging business will move under Panasonic Appliances Company and is not being dismantled.
The aim of this change is to further deepen our relationships with customers, strengthen our product capabilities, and continue to firmly develop and promote our business.'
While the company says the division is not being dismantled, it's interesting to note that the statement does not contest the characterization that it will be scaled back. The statement also appears to confirm that some of the recommendations of the report are being implemented.


Panasonic's camera business is under the appliances segment. The appliances segment has a profitable operating profit. It does not break down to camera division

Read more: https://photorumors.com/2018/05/13/...-olympus-nikon-kodak-and-canon/#ixzz5eOqPRK2A

Here is Canon report: "For interchangeable-lens cameras, the market in 2018 was down 10% to 10.3 million units. Our sales were down 9% to 5.04 million units..." "Additionally, we will also promote change in the distribution of internal resources, from development to production as well as sales & marketing."

Sony actually do well. Here is Q3 report. https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/son...nt-in-newly-released-q3-financial-statements/
Yes, Canon sales down (like everyone else), but still very profitable. Still far ahead of Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Pentax/Ricoh, Olympus, etc.

Didn't forget, read the rest of it. That's a statement from Panasonic trying to quell nervousness of investors. Panasonic is in deep trouble and is scaling back the camera division in a big way. "...it's interesting to note that the statement does not contest the characterization that it will be scaled back. The statement also appears to confirm that some of the recommendations of the report are being implemented. "

Sales and Revenue does not = profit. Profit = Revenue - costs. A company can have a trillion $ in revenue and still no profit.

Panasonic made about $3,000,000 profit from it's camera division last year. Not good. With the market contracting, it will only get worse for them. Panasonic's minuscule market share...
 
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Oct 31, 2016
271
137
Thanks for the sermon. Regardless of what cameras one like or doesn't, one shouldn't make up complete bullcrap...such as:

"We can pretend that the EOS R is anything we want to—but to Canon, it has got to be an internal embarrassment."
or,
"The result of not taking FF mirrorless seriously, decades of hubris, and finally getting run over by every other manufacturer selling the same kind of product."
or,
"stop making excuses for Canon and demand that they release something that is unquestionably better than the competition."

Having used the R - and having read some reviews from reliable reviewers such as Dustin Abbott, Steve Huff and others, there is no reason for Canon to be "internally embarassed." All signs point to the fact that they are quite proud of the new system they are creating (and rightfully so, in my opinion). Most photographers understand that the lenses are the key to any photo system, and Canon seems poised to create an RF line that will be as fine or finer than their already excellent EF lenses. Many reviewers agree that Canon color is industry leading, and the ergonomics, menus, EVF, touch screen (and the fact that is it fully articulating) are also better than most of the mirrorless FF offerings. So, "getting run over" can probably be re-interpreted as " I didn''t get what I want or what I think is important."

The fact that they are the only mirrorless brand that came up with a sensor protection screen tells me that they have taken the design of their new mirrorless line VERY seriously. The fact that they have come up with a new control ring, and, perhaps even more importantly, adapters that give additional functionality to EF lens users, tells me they have taken FF mirrorless VERY seriously.

And "demanding" that Canon release something that is unquestionably better than the competition," is so obviously unrealistic, that is needs llittle comment. I suppose if Canon had far more R&D money than the other brands - and the other brands didn't have patents - that it might be possible. But neither of those things are true, so it seems far more reasonable to assume that each brand will have some things they do better and some not as well as their competition.

If those particular aspects of a camera and photo system that Canon does really well or better aren't important to you, then you should choose a brand that does meet your needs. It's that simple.
Canon do get credit for some innovative features such as the control ring, ND filter adapter, control ring adapter, and close shutter, but they should also be criticize for other things that make them not taking it seriously in late 2018.

For $2300 camera, they are the only one still using recycle 5D IV sensor, no IBIS, no uncropped 4K, no continuous eyeAF, and single slot.

For $200 more, Panasonic S1 offers 5.6 million EVF, dual card slot, 4K 60, unlimited recording, dual IS, modern sensor (A7III sensor), continuous eyeAF with animal tracking

Sony A7III just got a price drop to $1800 with IBIS, eyeAF, and dual card slot. Sure they lack ergonomic and lower resolution EVF, but that's a very tempting price with alot things Sony bringing to the table.

Canon is the last manufacture who do NOT have IBIS, and continuous eyeAF. They also don't have uncropped 4K, dual card slot, and using recycle sensor. Some can argue they aren't taking FF mirrorless seriously because they need to protect their high end DSLR and cinema line.
 
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Dec 6, 2016
227
120
I understand identifying with the brand you shoot with and cheering it on or whatever, but dang things just get nasty when reality is ignored at the expense of justifying “your” brand. This is nasty, fugly thread.

I don’t care what Canon’s rumored to be doing, but if they’re up to anything other than creating a far more impressive FF mirrorless camera than the EOS R, they’re in big trouble. We can pretend hat the EOS R is anything we want to—but to Canon, it has got to be an internal embarrassment. The result of not taking FF mirrorless seriously, decades of hubris, and finally getting run over by every other manufacturer selling the same kind of product (including one that hasn’t even released their first FF MILC yet).

To make excuses or come up with alternative facts to support the EOS R as a misunderstood success is the worst thing you can do if you’re a true Canon fan. This, right now, should be the moment you stop making excuses for Canon and demand that they release something that is unquestionably better than the competition. A camera that needs exactly zero excuses, explanations, or extended handholding sessions in order to be seen as “good enough” or “superior.” I try to remain brand agnostic—but looking at all the cameras I’ve owned over the last 25 years you might think I was a Canon loyalist. However, I don’t see corporations as worthy places to park too much sentiment, nor vessels worthy of heavily emotionally investing in. Because they’re, uh, filthy corporations. :)

Still, it’s fair to have both preference and hopes/expectations for a brand. And it (can) make the gear side of things more fun. But! If any of you give half a rat’s ažž about Canon, you better be hoping that they are in full-out panic mode right now, developing the EOS Round Two. Aside from the EOS R not being competitive in any single category but ergonomics and AF, sorta (it is undeniably behind—if not significantly—in categories like all-around sensor performance, all-around video performance, now-essential features like IBIS, in high MP capability, burst rate, um...2.2 fps max for AE/AF in C-RAW?... battery life, and the important bread and butter—not trophy-- lens options) they are also charging more for a camera that is comparatively severely lacking. I’m not saying the EOS R is lacking, in a different time and place it could’ve been the greatest camera ever released, and for some of you it is... I’m saying COMPARATIVELY it is lacking. (If you can’t hold this concept in you’re head then just stop reading.)

IMO, the best way to judge how a camera is doing is to look at gray market values. They cut through all the marketing BS, fluffed up “sales” numbers, past and future expectations (and even perceived availability or supply). Almost a year after its release, you still cannot find a new a7III for even 10% off its MRP. And, just over three months since the EOS R’s release date, it’s selling for a full 20% off its MRP ray market. The Nikon Z6 is around the 10% mark.

Okay, so Canon didn’t take the EOS R seriously. Fine. Who cares. Life goes on. What matters is what they do next. If it’s a watered down EOS R (which pains me to even think about) that’s more than a bad sign, and quite frankly not even believable.

If, however, it’s the camera everyone here knows Canon CAN make, at an un-Canon-like competitive price, then all the silly “doom and gloom” talk can be shelved. Making excuses for Canon and weaving tales to justify shortcomings is exactly the same behavior that enabled American car manufacturers to produce some of the worst cars on the planet—ultimately resulting in losing ownership of these American companies to foreign investment and takeovers. Just hold Canon responsible if you truly care about them and want to see better products.
I think the problem is people pick a few 'specs' they think are important and asume their opinion is the right one. All the while ignoring the fact that other factors matter to other people. For many people ergonomics is by far and away THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR. Ibis is cool but hardly the most important thing if you are a stills shooter. Canon have produced a brilliant adapter selection which has made EF lenses 'native' for all i tents and purposes and in many cases more effective on an RF body than an EF body.from what i hear it shoots at 5fps with perfectly acceptable AF rather than the 2.2 fps you quote from the specs. Not surprising as canon does not beat their own drum re specs the way sony does . Sony specs never pan out in real life whereas canon specs are as good in real life and often better. And finally lets talk about the lens mount. Sony ridiculous choice mean they will NEVER match canons lens selection in the future. It is not possible. It is a crippled system from the get go, so for those actually looking toward the future it is better to stick with or buy into Canon because you know it has more potential in optics. And of course the price. Sony bodies are underpriced. Everyone knows that. Canon are in this game for the long haul so will price their bodies correctly. And their lenses are better value than equivalent sony glass. Total net price is about the same.
 
Jul 14, 2018
137
62
If the (very confident sounding) rumour on The Other Site is correct, then we are heading for a much cheaper FF mirrorless as the EOS RP announced mid-Feb. This is consistent with the earlier rumours, but not (by the way) inconsistent with another high MP EOS R also coming out later in the year. To me the interesting aspects of this are:

(i) the lens announcements accompanying the lower price version - because many of us are champing at the bit for more consumer-friendly pricing on RF lenses. I really want some non-L primes, including a 100mm macro, not so worried about holy trinity-style zooms, as I'm happy with the EF versions I have.

(ii) the sensor to be included in the EOS RP. I'm really struggling to think they would put the 6Dii version in there. On the other hand, putting the 5Div sensor in the EOS R was (to my mind) a way of upgrading the package to place it mid-way between the 6Dii body and the 5Div body (in price and performance). Could using the 6Dii sensor in the RP be a similar tactic of pitching the EOS RP body midway between a top level consumer APS-C (not necessarily the 7dii) and the 6D? But, the idea that they would put a new sensor in a camera priced at the level that is being discussed is also hard to believe.
 
Likes: Pape

Pape

EOS T7i
Dec 31, 2018
86
15
I hope they make consumer camera ,i am planning buy it :p
It could be tactically nasty thing release very good performing cheap camera.
Sony ,nikon and panasonic are barely head over water ,canon can afford to not make much profit.
 
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Jul 14, 2018
137
62
Sony ,nikon and panasonic are barely head over water ,canon can afford to not make much profit.
None of this is about loss-leaders or opposition squeezing - Canon will release what they think maximises their profit. In this case, that will come with a combination of different EOS R series bodies and RF lenses (L and non-L). And an increasing emphasis on mirrorless over time, while supporting the DSLR and EF series until enough people transition over to mirrorless to make it profitable to wind the older series back. And that's a long ways away.
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 28, 2015
2,896
484
Irving, Texas
None of this is about loss-leaders or opposition squeezing - Canon will release what they think maximises their profit. In this case, that will come with a combination of different EOS R series bodies and RF lenses (L and non-L). And an increasing emphasis on mirrorless over time, while supporting the DSLR and EF series until enough people transition over to mirrorless to make it profitable to wind the older series back. And that's a long ways away.
Unless DSLR remain profitable. No guarantee that mirrorless is going to take it all over.
 
Likes: Jethro

dak723

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
433
Canon do get credit for some innovative features such as the control ring, ND filter adapter, control ring adapter, and close shutter, but they should also be criticize for other things that make them not taking it seriously in late 2018.

For $2300 camera, they are the only one still using recycle 5D IV sensor, no IBIS, no uncropped 4K, no continuous eyeAF, and single slot.

For $200 more, Panasonic S1 offers 5.6 million EVF, dual card slot, 4K 60, unlimited recording, dual IS, modern sensor (A7III sensor), continuous eyeAF with animal tracking

Sony A7III just got a price drop to $1800 with IBIS, eyeAF, and dual card slot. Sure they lack ergonomic and lower resolution EVF, but that's a very tempting price with alot things Sony bringing to the table.

Canon is the last manufacture who do NOT have IBIS, and continuous eyeAF. They also don't have uncropped 4K, dual card slot, and using recycle sensor. Some can argue they aren't taking FF mirrorless seriously because they need to protect their high end DSLR and cinema line.
If all you do is compare specs, then that is fine. If that is how you choose a camera, fine. But not everyone is like you. I tried both the Sony A7 and A7 II. Perhaps the third generation is better, but after trying the first two generations, I would not consider Sony, no matter what the price. All cameras have exposure metering, but a BASIC things like exposure in the Sonys - was awful. (1 1/2 stop underexposed in the A7 II). All mirrorless cameras have EVFs, and yes, I heard the 3rd generation Sony is better, but the first two were bad - very dark. Since WYSIWYG is one reason to get a mirrorless, if the EVF is not really giving you anything close, then it is a BAD spec. There are many photographers who report major dust issues, so even though every camera has a dust removel spec, I would rather have a spec that works really well, compared to one that doesn't.

Panasonic has impressive specs, too. But none of us has any idea if the new FF cameras cameras work well or not. Panaosnic users have complained on their forums for years about Panasonics AF being sub-par. It might be good enough, but since Panasonic is known for their great video, I would be skeptical that they have also figured out a way to be great at stills. As primarily a stills shooter, I have no interest. But, of course, if reports are good over the next few years, then I may look at Panasonic. But it does take years to know if a camera company delivers reliability. And reliability may be the most important spec for some folks - and worth a few hundred dollars, as well. So, comparing the price based on specs is really not a good measuring stick, in my opinion. A camera can load up on specs and cut back in other areas that make it not worth the price.

I'm sure you get my point. If the particular specs that Canon does not have are ones you need. then, of course, you might look elsewhere. But that does not mean Canon doesn't take mirrorless seriously. Sony's inability to make a camera that is comfortable to hold might tell someone that they don't take actual photo-taking seriously and all they are interested in is impressive specs. That sort of company does not interest me.
 
Likes: Del Paso

dak723

EOS 6D MK II
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
433
...Sony bodies are underpriced. Everyone knows that. Canon are in this game for the long haul so will price their bodies correctly. And their lenses are better value than equivalent sony glass. Total net price is about the same.
While it is just a guess, it has always seemed to me that Sony does underprice their cameras, which looks great to consumers and forum dwellers - and then they totally overprice their lenses to make up the difference. That's one strategy - and not the one that Canon or Nikon take. And thuse, as usual, Sony is admired on the forums and by reveiwers and the others trashed.
 
Oct 31, 2016
271
137
If all you do is compare specs, then that is fine. If that is how you choose a camera, fine. But not everyone is like you. I tried both the Sony A7 and A7 II. Perhaps the third generation is better, but after trying the first two generations, I would not consider Sony, no matter what the price. All cameras have exposure metering, but a BASIC things like exposure in the Sonys - was awful. (1 1/2 stop underexposed in the A7 II). All mirrorless cameras have EVFs, and yes, I heard the 3rd generation Sony is better, but the first two were bad - very dark. Since WYSIWYG is one reason to get a mirrorless, if the EVF is not really giving you anything close, then it is a BAD spec. There are many photographers who report major dust issues, so even though every camera has a dust removel spec, I would rather have a spec that works really well, compared to one that doesn't.

Panasonic has impressive specs, too. But none of us has any idea if the new FF cameras cameras work well or not. Panaosnic users have complained on their forums for years about Panasonics AF being sub-par. It might be good enough, but since Panasonic is known for their great video, I would be skeptical that they have also figured out a way to be great at stills. As primarily a stills shooter, I have no interest. But, of course, if reports are good over the next few years, then I may look at Panasonic. But it does take years to know if a camera company delivers reliability. And reliability may be the most important spec for some folks - and worth a few hundred dollars, as well. So, comparing the price based on specs is really not a good measuring stick, in my opinion. A camera can load up on specs and cut back in other areas that make it not worth the price.

I'm sure you get my point. If the particular specs that Canon does not have are ones you need. then, of course, you might look elsewhere. But that does not mean Canon doesn't take mirrorless seriously. Sony's inability to make a camera that is comfortable to hold might tell someone that they don't take actual photo-taking seriously and all they are interested in is impressive specs. That sort of company does not interest me.
Canon camera is always greater than the sum of its part and I consider the handling, ergonomic, usability such as high resolution EVF and control ring adapter. But this isn't the only metric I consider when buying a camera or consider a system. Sony 7AIII is going to be $1800 while Canon EOS R is $2300.

Panasonic has the ergonomic, better build quality than Canon, better EVF, IBIS, dual card slot, high resolution mode. I'm primarily a still only photographer. The AF has been improved. If you are primarily a still shooter, the AF isn't a huge issue for you. They recently update version to version 0.6 FW and the AF has been improved for a pre production model 2 months out. If you only shoot still like I do, I would consider Panasonic for its still features - eyeAF, animal tracking, Dual IS, DFD for no banding and striping issues, 1/320 flash sync speed, high resolution EVF and ergonomic, fully touch screen LCD, dual card slot, 30 fps 6k photomode, in camera focus stacking and high resolution mode. They look like to have a better sensor than 5D IV too and have good color science. Jury is still out for dynamic range.

Some of the high ISO shot look better than Sony and Nikon too.

Panasonic build quality is very good and provide weather sealing. I don't hold Canon to be the gold standard when it come to build quality. My 24-70 II ring rubber fall out, my friend 85 1.2 rubber started peeling off and so is his 5D III rubber. He doesn't even shoot professionally.

I have come to a sad realization that Canon may not be a camera for me. As a Canon only shooter for a very long time who has never switch, I think it's time for me to look elsewhere. They will always hold back specs to protect their DSLR lines or Cinema EOS line. I'm not consider Sony A7III but A7SIII/A9II. They will surely include their 5.8 million EVF. I can deal with ergonomic issue by adding an L bracket.
 
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